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Why did Obsidian despise light-side Revan?


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Never played KotOR 2, because KotOR 1 sucked monkey balls.  Why?  Because they are bad games and you are bad for liking them.

 

Seriously, I don't know never played it.

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Because rigid moral dichotomy is detrimental to believable characters.

 

Just like "I know you're gonna say/do this, so when you do it I'm totally gonna be rightfully outraged" is detrimental to any real debate.

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Fortune favors the bald.

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You know of what I speak, Gandalf.

 

I'm just curious.

 

If I post this in the KotOR2 section, it can be relatively ignored due to being an over-decade old game. I expect this to be placed in its proper category by a mod. Meanwhile, to all members: Why?

It's the reason why Chris Avellone was fired. Lucasarts forced Feargus's hand and gave them the MCA or Kotor 3 ultimatum. Can't have both.

 

Duh. Obviously.

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Because rigid moral dichotomy is detrimental to believable characters.

 

Just like "I know you're gonna say/do this, so when you do it I'm totally gonna be rightfully outraged" is detrimental to any real debate.

 

Would you have been more comfortable had I said "predominately light side Revan"? I assumed that went without saying. (b/c it does)

 

And I don't even know what you mean by the next sentence.

Edited by Harrold Andraste
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I don´t know, maybe because it´s nice to be the bad guy once? Usually you are the hero anyway which gets boring.

 

As a side note, i think Kotor 2 is better (except the technical problems) than 1. Yes, lynch me :p

"A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies, the man who never reads lives one."

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The issue the OP is getting at is the premise of TSL favors dark side Revan. LS players can easily feel like that version of Revan was almost glossed over.

 

 

Did you save the day in the original? Doesn't matter here. The Jedi all but die out in FIVE years. And suddenly we have multiple Sith Lords running about that come out of thin air.

 

The premise just makes more sense from a DS Revan ending. LS players feel like they accomplished nothing in the big picture.

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I thought all of the content on Revan in the Sith Lords was quite complimentary, they expanded on and made him a far more interesting character, as much as they could anyway.

Quite an experience to live in misery isn't it? That's what it is to be married with children.

I've seen things you people can't even imagine. Pearly Kings glittering on the Elephant and Castle, Morris Men dancing 'til the last light of midsummer. I watched Druid fires burning in the ruins of Stonehenge, and Yorkshiremen gurning for prizes. All these things will be lost in time, like alopecia on a skinhead. Time for tiffin.

 

Tea for the teapot!

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You know of what I speak, Gandalf.

Personally, I have no ****ing clue what you're speaking about, Frodo.

 

am equal perplexed as to what the genesis poster thinks is obvious.

 

the cursive rain smelled of blue and gold.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU4uaKgCQ9A

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited by Gromnir

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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The issue the OP is getting at is the premise of TSL favors dark side Revan. LS players can easily feel like that version of Revan was almost glossed over.

 

 

Did you save the day in the original? Doesn't matter here. The Jedi all but die out in FIVE years. And suddenly we have multiple Sith Lords running about that come out of thin air.

 

The premise just makes more sense from a DS Revan ending. LS players feel like they accomplished nothing in the big picture.

 

Pretty much this. ^_^

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The issue the OP is getting at is the premise of TSL favors dark side Revan. LS players can easily feel like that version of Revan was almost glossed over.

 

 

Did you save the day in the original? Doesn't matter here. The Jedi all but die out in FIVE years. And suddenly we have multiple Sith Lords running about that come out of thin air.

 

The premise just makes more sense from a DS Revan ending. LS players feel like they accomplished nothing in the big picture.

 

Pretty much this. ^_^

 

in our opinion, you both kinda missed the premise o' kotor 2 if that is what you got from it.

 

the force in kotor 2 is the Ultimate Bad Guy, at least from kreia's pov.  the light side cannot win anymore than can the dark side, 'cause the force is gonna eventual, mindlessly perhaps, bring about a galactic balancing and all the jedi and sith is little more than tools to realize that necessity.

 

*shrug*

 

light side makes just as much sense as does dark side, and we see no preference ( ls preference actual more likely as the game is still a heroic 'venture) so long as you accept the writer's core premise.

 

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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in our opinion, you both kinda missed the premise o' kotor 2 if that is what you got from it.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

I understand the premise and themes. You explained them well enough.

 

It's how the story grew from the light side ending of the first game that I have a problem with. That is, the writers more or less ignored the possibility of the light side ending as Metopholus posted about.

Edited by Harrold Andraste
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you get the role o' the force in kotor 2, but you see the nullification o' revan's ls works as somehow inappropriate.

 

...

 

that don't seem rational to us, but you need not share our perspective. kreia's existential crisis actual makes more sense to us with a ls ending.  regardless, you do have an explanation as to why revan's ls deeds would be erased by the force in kotor 2.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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What exact events led to the dark side being so prominent as to render a light side Revan's choices meaningless?

 

The writers took Revan's victory over Malak and the Star Forge, took the Republic and Jedi's victory over the Sith... and made it all irrelevant. The writers created three new Sith, retroactively, to cancel out any sense of accomplishment from having played a LS Revan in the previous game.

 

I could almost understand if KotOR II took place many decades after the first. But no. It happened five years later. What's the point of KotOR I if that was going to be the case?

 

BTW... what's with all this "we" and "us" from you? Are you a geth?

Edited by Harrold Andraste
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The issue the OP is getting at is the premise of TSL favors dark side Revan. LS players can easily feel like that version of Revan was almost glossed over.

 

 

Did you save the day in the original? Doesn't matter here. The Jedi all but die out in FIVE years. And suddenly we have multiple Sith Lords running about that come out of thin air.

 

The premise just makes more sense from a DS Revan ending. LS players feel like they accomplished nothing in the big picture.

 

Pretty much this. ^_^

 

in our opinion, you both kinda missed the premise o' kotor 2 if that is what you got from it.

 

the force in kotor 2 is the Ultimate Bad Guy, at least from kreia's pov.  the light side cannot win anymore than can the dark side, 'cause the force is gonna eventual, mindlessly perhaps, bring about a galactic balancing and all the jedi and sith is little more than tools to realize that necessity.

 

*shrug*

 

light side makes just as much sense as does dark side, and we see no preference ( ls preference actual more likely as the game is still a heroic 'venture) so long as you accept the writer's core premise.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

is gonna be spam if we quote our self more than once.  

 

*shrug*

 

again, what sends kreia into the abyss is that the force renders jedi and sith actions meaningless.  kreia sees the force as an evil that needs be ended, once and for all.  her fury is believable, and even reasonable, precisely 'cause o' what happened after the end o' kotor.  if you understand kreia anger at being impotent, then how can you be surprised when the writers reveal that all o' revan's ls works were in fact undone?   

 

am not sure how else to explain.

 

is too old a topic 'pon which to waste more effort. if you ain't accepted obsidian/kreia pov o' the force by now, then Gromnir explanations have no hope o' bringing forth additional clarity.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited by Gromnir

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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The Triumvirate pioneered a new type of warfare, one that the Jedi being totally dependent on the force could not combat, because it fed on the force and sensitives. Well that was the explanation I seemed to pick up from Atton and others. Their dependence made them vulnerable just as it did with Nihlus in the end.

 

I assumed whether a light or dark side ending in KotOR the Jedi were extremely weakened and fragile. In point of fact I never thought that the Triumvirate were part of Revan's Sith army, I assumed they were waiting and watching on Malachor V.

Edited by Nonek

Quite an experience to live in misery isn't it? That's what it is to be married with children.

I've seen things you people can't even imagine. Pearly Kings glittering on the Elephant and Castle, Morris Men dancing 'til the last light of midsummer. I watched Druid fires burning in the ruins of Stonehenge, and Yorkshiremen gurning for prizes. All these things will be lost in time, like alopecia on a skinhead. Time for tiffin.

 

Tea for the teapot!

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Players typically don't enjoy feeling like they're having their choices stepped on. TSL seemed an odd choice to follow up KoTOR 1 with. I ended up feeling like nothing I did mattered in that game. It devalued my experience.

 

My problem don't stem from a lack of understanding on themes or plot. I've had over a decade to decipher things. My problem is they more or less throw KoTOR 1 under the bus.

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It's how the story grew from the light side ending of the first game that I have a problem with. That is, the writers more or less ignored the possibility of the light side ending as Metopholus posted about.

I didn't feel they ignored the possibility of the light side ending any more than they ignored the possibility of the dark side ending — all your choices in K1 are equally irrelevant in K2 outside of a few conversations and a cameo, which I'm thankful for. Obs took the KotOR franchise and ran with it.

 

You say that the state of affairs in K2 is hard to explain with a LS ending in the first game. It's actually harder to explain if Revan went DS: Malak had already brought the Republic to its knees, and by the end Revan has regained command of the Star Forge and handed the Republic a crushing defeat. Why didn't he finish the job?

 

And, of course, what Gromnir said. Avellone doesn't like the idea of the Force ****ing with people's fate, so he actually cranked it up to 11 to show how it runs contrary to free will and you shouldn't like it either. Clever, no?

- When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.

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It's how the story grew from the light side ending of the first game that I have a problem with. That is, the writers more or less ignored the possibility of the light side ending as Metopholus posted about.

I didn't feel they ignored the possibility of the light side ending any more than they ignored the possibility of the dark side ending — all your choices in K1 are equally irrelevant in K2 outside of a few conversations and a cameo, which I'm thankful for. Obs took the KotOR franchise and ran with it.

 

You say that the state of affairs in K2 is hard to explain with a LS ending in the first game. It's actually harder to explain if Revan went DS: Malak had already brought the Republic to its knees, and by the end Revan has regained command of the Star Forge and handed the Republic a crushing defeat. Why didn't he finish the job?

 

 

Dark Side Revan, according to Bastila, never intended to keep the Star Forge. He recovered some of his memories and departed for the Unknown Regions with his own motives, leaving everything else behind, apparently including the threat of the Triumvirate. 

 

 

And, of course, what Gromnir said. Avellone doesn't like the idea of the Force ****ing with people's fate, so he actually cranked it up to 11 to show how it runs contrary to free will and you shouldn't like it either. Clever, no?

 

 

No. It's just ass-backwards.

 

So Avellone wanted us to agree with the main antagonist... even though the player is taking the role of the main protagonist, who is fighting against those beliefs. And it was pointless in the end. Kreia never had the means to destroy the Force anyway.

 

Let's say that's right. Let's say the Force obstructing free will is a bad thing. OK. What's the solution? There isn't one. Nothing was learned and future Jedi or Sith have nothing to take from these events.

Edited by Harrold Andraste
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I have to say something. In my opinion, Revan was never really light nor dark side, (a principle i always found stupid, there should be WAY more "grey jedis" out there). He started off as a good guy and ..well what? THe Mandalorian wars were horrible but he DID help and got into it, and wars change people. we can arguee if the sith side is evil (i would say no) had his reign as a "bad" guy, then you get kotor 2 and then he flies off, as you said, because there is a bigger threat. Which comes back in the latter novels and hinted at in SWTOR.

 

I was never happy with his storyline, but to me he was a guy who couldn´t deal with the silly restrictions and wannabe heroes that the light side provides, while standing aside and letting horrific things happen, (why he went into the war), then matured as a man, clearly influenced by the war and went for power to take it over and make one big empire to end war and brnig the jedis to justice (in HIS mind). Now thats character grow and i can even understand and releate to it. And he gets confronted and realizes that he has gone to far...also realizes that there is a far more dangours threat out there (which eventually came in the books) and sets out to find them.

 

That was a rather nice story, not great but ok. It was character development, thats the reason why he was and is so popular and no one gives a **** about star child as an example.

 

He is not inhertly dark side, and i don´t think he ever was one side, he just tried to find his way. Something star wars lacks in term of force users, there is dark and light, for the movie we have Han as the rogue guy to compensate for that. also everyone loves the simpel bad/good guy arc. But then..all the fanfiction and books came after the movie, and now everything of this is NON-canon anyway.

 

Anyway, i think Revans story as "dark" jedi is more interesting, the last thing we need is another good jedi sitting around and doing nothing. Not to menton that this story paved the way for several books about a "bigger threat" for the best or worse, i don´t like them much, *shrug*

"A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies, the man who never reads lives one."

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you are no longer arguing what you claimed to be arguing.

 

*shrug*

 

kreia were not a villain such as darth mushmouth. unlike the faceless evils such as sauron and grendel, kreia were 'posed to be a real human. she needed a rational and believable motivation. were you forced to agree with kreia?  'course not.  am assuming you played the game. if so, you know you need not agree with kreia.   kreia's belief that the galaxy would be better off w/o the force had to be rational and believable.  if all we got were some kinda quasi-intellectual's theory 'bout the force subtle adjusting events every few thousand years to bring 'bout balance to the galaxy's unseen light v. dark meter, her actions would seem ridiculous. 

 

did obsidian writers hate the force?  perhaps.  clearly the obsidnaties saw the question o' the force's role in events as being worthy o' consideration.  however, the possibility that the writers didn't like the force or your belief that plot holes were in abundance is Not a showing o' any kinda writer preference for ds o'er ls. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps we only responded 'cause you were getting off-topic in your own thread.

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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you are no longer arguing what you claimed to be arguing.

 

*shrug*

 

ps we only responded 'cause you were getting off-topic in your own thread.

 

The hell are you on about now? 

 

I was responding to 213374U's point about Kreia, which was related to the main topic. 

 

The more I read from you, the more you weird me out. I'm done responding to you after this.

Edited by Harrold Andraste
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The problem stems from much of the writing of KotOR2 having been done before KotOR1 was released, and thus the writers not being familiar with the established character of Revan. References to the first game where tagged on later in development, but it was to late to change the basic plot and themes to more closely tie into the first game.

 

The two games do showcase the contrasting styles of Bioware and Black Isle/Obsidian. KOTOR1* is very like Mass Effect 1 and DA:I in that it makes you the big stonking badass hero, whatever choices you make; as opposed to a more morally grey and less superheroic protagonist.

 

I guess if you hate moral absolutism, then you aren't going to be to keen on The Force. But perhaps that means you shouldn't do a Star Wars story?

 

 

*Okay, so you can be a big stonking badass villain as well, but you can't be a complex, troubled, weak-willed villain.

Edited by Fardragon

Everyone knows Science Fiction is really cool. You know what PoE really needs? Spaceships! There isn't any game that wouldn't be improved by a space combat minigame. Adding one to PoE would send sales skyrocketing, and ensure the game was remembered for all time!!!!!

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