PoE review at RPG Codex by Decado

[Zwiebelchen]

 

This review exists solely to defend the game (actually not kidding), rather than to review it. Therefore it is no surprise that the content of the review is quite weak. As TheisEjsing noted. 

If this is true, then I am pretty much amazed by how the Codex works. You get one review for venting butthurt and one review for venting the butthurt of people who are butthurt over the previous review.

Where is the actual review? Will there be any?

 

 

You get the actual review by taking both reviews together and building the middleground on every oppinion. As always.

 

So if one person says that the attribute system was crap and another person says that it's great, then it's average in reality.

[Zwiebelchen]

 

Some fair points he made :

• The disengagement mechanic combined with blocking party members and bad pathing, makes combat too static and often predictable. Don't think anyone would be sad to see it go.

 

As long as the Something Awful and badgame forums support the mechanic (which they do) it will not be removed. Those are Sawyer's home forums and the mechanic was designed for their preferences.

 

 

I also never thought that disengagement was a bad idea in general. I mean; it makes sense that you get hit hard if you turn your back to an enemy, right?

 

A redesign to be a little less restrictive would already go a long way. Allowing repositioning without disengagement and ways to escape without disengaging.

[abaris]

I think both reviews were rather easy on the story, which I consider to be the weakest point of the game.

 

(Still miles above anything Bioware put out since Jade Empire, but that's irrelevant.)

 

Do you know of any (recent) game where the story was not average off the stock material? Games are not the next great novel and I've got no real problem if the story feels rather seen before. The question for me is rather, how deeply you as the player, are immersed in any given story.

 

I didn't have access to the old games of the genre, since I was on a mac back then and companies didn't port their games to mac systems in the days, but of all the games I played, I never found a story that awed me for it's originality.

[Zwiebelchen]

 

I think both reviews were rather easy on the story, which I consider to be the weakest point of the game.

 

(Still miles above anything Bioware put out since Jade Empire, but that's irrelevant.)

 

Do you know of any (recent) game where the story was not average off the stock material? Games are not the next great novel and I've got no real problem if the story feels rather seen before. The question for me is rather, how deeply you as the player, are immersed in any given story.

 

I didn't have access to the old games of the genre, since I was on a mac back then and companies didn't port their games to mac systems in the days, but of all the games I played, I never found a story that awed me for it's originality.

 

 

To be honest, I wasn't disappointed in the story at all. I liked the whole souls theme and the hollowborn crisis and even the solution.

 

It was more how the narrative was presented to the player that was the problem. The pacing significantly drops after the first act and then picks up at the third act again. The second act felt more like a continued exposition to me when the game didn't even need any more exposition.

 

Basicly, between leaving the tutorial region and entering twin elms, not much happens in terms of story progression. Which is kinda odd, considering that all the twist stuff that comes in act 4 could have easily been added to act 2 instead.

 

Also, I felt like that whole insanity thing for the watcher didn't play out very well. I never really felt like I was getting more and more insane throughout the game. I never felt an initial threat for the life of my PC.

In Baldur's Gate, you had the progressing awakening through getting access to bhaalspawn powers (and eventually, the slayer transformation). Granted, you also gain more abilities in PoE, but it didn't feel the same to me, as there was no connection to dreams, visions or anything indicating why I just got that ability.

 

I think they should have added more narrative elements supporting the claim that the PC gets more and more insane with every day here and there.

Maybe in the form of dreams or cinematics, or simply by starting to talk to yourself in certain situations. I never felt like I was becoming more and more like Maerwald. Which was odd, considering that Maerwald pretty much exactly defined what would happen to the PC and that that could have been easily delivered to the player.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[abaris]

 

I think they should have added more narrative elements supporting the claim that the PC gets more and more insane with every day here and there.

Maybe in the form of dreams or cinematics, or simply by starting to talk to yourself in certain situations. I never felt like I was becoming more and more like Maerwald. Which was odd, considering that Maerwald pretty much exactly defined what would happen to the PC and that that could have been easily delivered to the player.

 

 

Great idea from a narrative perspective. But from a gameplay perspective next to impossible to pull off. Losing ones mind means losing ones grip on reality, getting a different insance perspective. That would mean to constrain the player character with certain dialogue and gameplay options no longer being available and being replaced by others. More passionate maybe, maybe more cruel and certainly more aggressive. Every other approach would just be another half baked attempt. I would role with that, if there's a chance to redeem the character, but many others wouldn't.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

I think both reviews were rather easy on the story, which I consider to be the weakest point of the game.

 

(Still miles above anything Bioware put out since Jade Empire, but that's irrelevant.)

 

Do you know of any (recent) game where the story was not average off the stock material?

 

 

Shadowrun: Dragonfall had a perfectly serviceable story.

 

At the very least, it managed to avoid Ass Pulling a radical thematic shift in the last... roughly 10 percent of the story, which is more than what could be said for Pillars.

Edited June 4, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid

[abaris]

 

 

I think both reviews were rather easy on the story, which I consider to be the weakest point of the game.

 

(Still miles above anything Bioware put out since Jade Empire, but that's irrelevant.)

 

Do you know of any (recent) game where the story was not average off the stock material?

 

 

Shadowrun: Dragonfall had a perfectly serviceable story.

 

At the very least, it managed to avoid Ass Pulling a radical thematic shift in the last... roughly 10 percent of the story, which is more than what could be said for Pillars.

 

 

Yeah, but that's more of a murder mystery than a real RPG. Although it has strong RPG elements it doesn't have real side quests and party management to the extent of a real RPG.

[Zwiebelchen]

 

 

I think they should have added more narrative elements supporting the claim that the PC gets more and more insane with every day here and there.

Maybe in the form of dreams or cinematics, or simply by starting to talk to yourself in certain situations. I never felt like I was becoming more and more like Maerwald. Which was odd, considering that Maerwald pretty much exactly defined what would happen to the PC and that that could have been easily delivered to the player.

 

 

Great idea from a narrative perspective. But from a gameplay perspective next to impossible to pull off. Losing ones mind means losing ones grip on reality, getting a different insance perspective. That would mean to constrain the player character with certain dialogue and gameplay options no longer being available and being replaced by others. More passionate maybe, maybe more cruel and certainly more aggressive. Every other approach would just be another half baked attempt. I would role with that, if there's a chance to redeem the character, but many others wouldn't.

 

 

I was more thinking of adding subtle elements outside of the actual gameplay.

 

Remember all those scripted mini-encounters with Thaos where he questions you about your past life? Why not make mini-encounters with a mirror image of yourself, where you basicly confront a PC that gives you ideas based on opposing reputations and a sort of "what could have been had you decided different" view? Not hard to code, imho; just a little bit of extra writing.

Basicly, a clever deviation of the age old "talking to the devil and angel on your shoulder" thing when a big decision is presented to you.

 

And what about visions/dreams? The early game has those (2, to be exact; one at the first encounter with Thaos, the second one at the Inn in Gilded Vale). Why not expand on that like in the BG games? It's weird that at first you are haunted with visions and then after going to that tree, those visions suddenly stop.

 

Plus, it would be a perfect opportunity to add more of those text adventure intermissions. There are way too few of them anyway.

[abaris]

@ Zwiebelchen, since I don't need to quote any particular point of your post. Just a general observation.

 

We're entering quite treacherous territory there. The territory of writing themselves into a corner. A perfect example would be DAII (which I never played, but read a lot about) where you can play a mage and cast magic without anyone noticing in a city where this is basically outlawed and under the best or circumstances frowned upon. Another one would be Skyrim, where being Dragonborn has absolutely no cosequence besides you being able to shout.

 

If you introduce something major, you better make it work inside the game environment. And a few text tablets simply don't do for a character going insane by being possessed by past selves. Either you make it so, that the changes are gradual and don't influence your gameplay - as they did. Or you have to have the guts to put some restraints on the player to drive the point of the story home.

[vattghern]

Seems like the Codex scales to Infinitron's level after all.

[Sensuki]

Sometimes, yes

If you read the comments though, most people thought the review was really bad quality and belongs on Eurogamer or IGN 

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

 

I think both reviews were rather easy on the story, which I consider to be the weakest point of the game.

 

(Still miles above anything Bioware put out since Jade Empire, but that's irrelevant.)

 

Do you know of any (recent) game where the story was not average off the stock material?

 

 

Shadowrun: Dragonfall had a perfectly serviceable story.

 

 

Yeah, but that's more of a murder mystery than a real RPG. Although it has strong RPG elements it doesn't have real side quests and party management to the extent of a real RPG.

 

 

You're thinking of Dead Man's Switch. Dragonfall is a completely different campaign (which surpasses its predecessor in every possible way and is probably the best CRPG since Alpha Protocol).

[abaris]

 

 

 

 

I think both reviews were rather easy on the story, which I consider to be the weakest point of the game.

 

(Still miles above anything Bioware put out since Jade Empire, but that's irrelevant.)

 

Do you know of any (recent) game where the story was not average off the stock material?

 

 

Shadowrun: Dragonfall had a perfectly serviceable story.

 

 

Yeah, but that's more of a murder mystery than a real RPG. Although it has strong RPG elements it doesn't have real side quests and party management to the extent of a real RPG.

 

 

You're thinking of Dead Man's Switch. Dragonfall is a completely different campaign (which surpasses its predecessor in every possible way and is probably the best CRPG since Alpha Protocol).

 

 

You're right. I was talking about Shadowrun returns.

[FlintlockJazz]

IT WORKS!!!  MY TIME MACHINE WORKS!!!! BWAHAHAHAHA!  FEAR ME MORTALS FOR I COME FROM THE FUTURE TO TELL YOU ALL TO DESPA-

 

Wait, this isn't the past?  People are just talking about yet another worthless review from the Codex?  Oh, well, carry on then...

[abaris]

IT WORKS!!!  MY TIME MACHINE WORKS!!!! BWAHAHAHAHA!  FEAR ME MORTALS FOR I COME FROM THE FUTURE TO TELL YOU ALL TO DESPA-

 

Wait, this isn't the past?  People are just talking about yet another worthless review from the Codex?  Oh, well, carry on then...

 

As far as I am concerned, most if not all reviews by magazines and game sites are worthless. You can still learn something from reading them by looking at the authors preferences. If they happen to coincide with your own and the review is positive, it's probably a game for you.

 

Personally I rather look at reviews by the gamer community and actual ingame videos to make my own judgment. In most cases, this has proven to be the right approach for me, since working for a special interest magazine myself I know first hand how ad money influences stories.

[Gfted1]

Stop being reasonable abaris. Everyone knows that when a person disagrees with a review, its because the reviewer is a hack.

[Skolinkinlot]

 

 

 

 

I think both reviews were rather easy on the story, which I consider to be the weakest point of the game.

 

(Still miles above anything Bioware put out since Jade Empire, but that's irrelevant.)

 

Do you know of any (recent) game where the story was not average off the stock material?

 

 

Shadowrun: Dragonfall had a perfectly serviceable story.

 

 

Yeah, but that's more of a murder mystery than a real RPG. Although it has strong RPG elements it doesn't have real side quests and party management to the extent of a real RPG.

 

 

You're thinking of Dead Man's Switch. Dragonfall is a completely different campaign (which surpasses its predecessor in every possible way and is probably the best CRPG since Alpha Protocol).

 

Dragonfall is amazing. Recently picked it up on a steam sale for 5.99 !!!!?!?!?!. Sadly , I think ive been having more fun with it than I did with PoE.

[MunoValente]

I really like Pillars, but I do think that Dragonfall does many of the common elements it shares with Pillars better, although it's much smaller, more focused and streamlined.  Dragonfall is really good, especially character design and writing, I think it has the best companion crew in any game I've ever played.   I highly recommend it at any RPG fan who hasn't played it.

 

I'll probably replay Pillars more though, because it's bigger and there is a lot more I can do with the character creation.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

I really like Pillars, but I do think that Dragonfall does many of the common elements it shares with Pillars better, although it's much smaller, more focused and streamlined. 

 

I'd argue it's better exactly because it's just so much more focused. Bigger isn't always better, especially not in a story-centric RPG, where too much freedom kills pacing entirely.

[MunoValente]

I'd argue it's better exactly because it's just so much more focused. Bigger isn't always better, especially not in a story-centric RPG, where too much freedom kills pacing entirely.

 

Yeah, I think if you want a make larger scale RPG with a lot player freedom, something more like New Vegas or the original Fallout where it's more written to empower the player to make their story works better.  Pillars kind of tries to strike a middle ground between that and an more focused games like Dragonfall or something like Torment and doesn't completely succeed at either.  Pillars also suffers from the way it piles on exposition at times, several of the dialogues in the game remind me of the "Exposition Daemon" from Snow Crash if someone is familiar with that.  Hopefully the sequels and expansions won't feel so pressured to pile on exposition now that the setting is a bit more established.

Edited June 4, 2015 by MunoValente

[Gromnir]

Stop being reasonable abaris. Everyone knows that when a person disagrees with a review, its because the reviewer is a hack.

some observations made by decado is not aligning with Gromnir's opinions, but we don't see him as wrong for having such differences o' opinion.

 

example:

 

decado shares one o' the worst aspects o' the ie games for Gromnir and seeming sees the ie approach such as a positive.  an ie character, midway through most o' those games, were more defined by gear than by any customization choices.  yes, ie game and d&d customization were, until the tob expansion, almost complete limited to level 1 choices.  weapon proficiencies and thief skills?  that's it after level 1?  nevertheless, using his bg2 loot examples, decado complete ignores that such gear made starting attributes of the ie characters almost entirely inconsequential.  use shadowmaker to create a bg2 halfling berserker with all 5s for abilities.  relative early in the game you will have opportunities to be finding gear that results in strength better than 18/00 as well as being able to get yourself 18s in constitution and dex.  willingness to spend a little bit o' the ubiquitous gold available in bg2 results in purchasable potions and scrolls with which our enfeebled halfling will have ability scores in the 20s for pretty much all battles as well as complete immunities to... everything and anything.  thanks to gear, our purposeful broken halfling could solo most bg2 battles. 

 

bg1 loot progression may actual have been worse than bg2, as hard as that is to believe.    too much o' the bg loot were NOT appropriate for a typical level 1-7 adventure.   available bg loot were what made it possible to solo drizz't... who deserved to die, but not at the hands o' a level six or seven... whatever. 

 

don't get us started on iwd.  we did get josh to once admit that a few o' the stunning + elemental damage weapons available via iwd random drops were excessive. this were a Long time ago and josh were still young, so he threw feargus under the bus regarding a few o' the ridiculous overpowered random iwd drops. 

 

poe much improved the loot scheme compared to the ie games.   recent obsidian offerings were hardly perfect balanced insofar as 1007s were concerned, and it seems that any game with feargus involved is gonna have at least a few overpowered and/or lamentably random drops o' gear, but compared to the ie games, poe is a massive and welcome step back from the monty haul nonsense we saw in the ie games.

 

 

now, we do think it is wrong for decado to lament the meaninglessness o' poe attributes while at same time holding up ie game 1007 progression as keen in spite o' the fact that ie l00t did so much to diminish attribute value.  even so, while Gromnir do not like for 100t to be a primary determinant o' character power and ability, there is nothing inherent wrong with that pov.  we don't share decado opinion.  have characters effective level through 1007 is perfectly viable, but is not our preference.

 

on the other hand, suggesting that ie games, up to and including bg2 offered more meaningful class customization options strikes us as wholly fallacious. is not simple different opinion, but is wrong.  am not sure how decado eventually played his paladin (started similar to the companion npc), but compare poe customization to bg2 customization options and finding poe lacking were baffling us.  a wood elf kind wayfarer paladin focused on support can acquire the ranged weapon talents, sworn enemy, inspired triumph, strange mercy, and sword and sheppard abilities/talents, for a start.  such a character is gonna play a dramatic different role in party combat compared to a wild orlan darcozzi paladini paladin (that is rather awkward, no? paladini paladin?  ack.) that takes sword and board talents as well as fires of darcozzi palace. poe  character customization options allows us to play effective melee wizards or ranged nuke wizards.  our customization options has us still on fence trying to decide how best to build a monk.  we likes a hybrid off-tank build, but am betting that if we shared our ideal monk, we would get at least a half-dozen folks disagreeing with our choices.  and heck, we could build a straight dps monk that would be unlikely to take rooting pain and soul mirror.  decado compares poe class customization options to bg2 kits and finds poe wanting?  how? 

 

but again, is a review for a game we already played.  why on earth would we be particular concerned 'bout decado's opinions o' a game we already played and formed our own opinions for the title?  we did get slight further into this codexian review as 'posed to the last, but roxxor's (sp?) were more o' a joke review akin to a lewis black monologue, but without as much funny.

 

matt516 nailed it for previous review.  

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78279-rpgcodex-review-1-hŵrpa-dwrp/?p=1670748

 

decado, on the other hand, simple had a different experience from Gromnir.... which is fine.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[FlintlockJazz]

 

IT WORKS!!!  MY TIME MACHINE WORKS!!!! BWAHAHAHAHA!  FEAR ME MORTALS FOR I COME FROM THE FUTURE TO TELL YOU ALL TO DESPA-

 

Wait, this isn't the past?  People are just talking about yet another worthless review from the Codex?  Oh, well, carry on then...

 

As far as I am concerned, most if not all reviews by magazines and game sites are worthless. You can still learn something from reading them by looking at the authors preferences. If they happen to coincide with your own and the review is positive, it's probably a game for you.

 

Personally I rather look at reviews by the gamer community and actual ingame videos to make my own judgment. In most cases, this has proven to be the right approach for me, since working for a special interest magazine myself I know first hand how ad money influences stories.

 

Um I was making a reference to how people were arguing about a review from the Codex before (one in which they slagged off PoE) and are now arguing about it again (this time one praising it) and how it all feels pretty much the same, just to be clear.

[abaris]

Um I was making a reference to how people were arguing about a review from the Codex before (one in which they slagged off PoE) and are now arguing about it again (this time one praising it) and how it all feels pretty much the same, just to be clear.

 

 

Yeah, and I didn't contradict it. My point was merely that it's foolish to put any real stock in reviews at all. Not only game reviews, but all product reviews. If it's about a car, it's the same thing. The journalist gets to drive a fancy motor for a period of time for free. Do you think, he's going to destroy the image of the company providing it? If he did, next time he won't be on the list.

 

And that's exactly the same with games. If there are negative reviews, apart from ad money being a concern, magazines reporting badly won't get invited to get an early sneak peak at the next game. They won't get early copies, but everyone playing ball will. So it's hurting their own business if they can't report while every oher hack does get the opportunity. That's why you hardly find any bad reviews about AAA titles. A look at metacritic and the disconnect between gamers and magazines becomes abundantly clear in many instances.

 

And lastly, there's this thing called advertorials. Outright paid articles that give themselves the appearance of being legit. That's hard to spot for the average reader, since they don't know about the wording used in PR and the assumed psychology behind them. When I read a particularly friendly article about a certain company in a paper or a magazine, my alarm bells go off, since I know the inner workings of the business.

[FlintlockJazz]

 

Um I was making a reference to how people were arguing about a review from the Codex before (one in which they slagged off PoE) and are now arguing about it again (this time one praising it) and how it all feels pretty much the same, just to be clear.

 

 

Yeah, and I didn't contradict it. My point was merely that it's foolish to put any real stock in reviews at all. Not only game reviews, but all product reviews. If it's about a car, it's the same thing. The journalist gets to drive a fancy motor for a period of time for free. Do you think, he's going to destroy the image of the company providing it? If he did, next time he won't be on the list.

 

And that's exactly the same with games. If there are negative reviews, apart from ad money being a concern, magazines reporting badly won't get invited to get an early sneak peak at the next game. They won't get early copies, but everyone playing ball will. So it's hurting their own business if they can't report while every oher hack does get the opportunity. That's why you hardly find any bad reviews about AAA titles. A look at metacritic and the disconnect between gamers and magazines becomes abundantly clear in many instances.

 

And lastly, there's this thing called advertorials. Outright paid articles that give themselves the appearance of being legit. That's hard to spot for the average reader, since they don't know about the wording used in PR and the assumed psychology behind them. When I read a particularly friendly article about a certain company in a paper or a magazine, my alarm bells go off, since I know the inner workings of the business.

 

Okay cool thought that was what you were doing and I agree totally with you but I just wanted to be clear in case people misunderstood, since I probably wasn't very clear in my original post.   Agree with all your points totally.

[Luckmann]

 

 

 

 

I think both reviews were rather easy on the story, which I consider to be the weakest point of the game.

 

(Still miles above anything Bioware put out since Jade Empire, but that's irrelevant.)

 

Do you know of any (recent) game where the story was not average off the stock material?

 

 

Shadowrun: Dragonfall had a perfectly serviceable story.

 

 

Yeah, but that's more of a murder mystery than a real RPG. Although it has strong RPG elements it doesn't have real side quests and party management to the extent of a real RPG.

 

 

You're thinking of Dead Man's Switch. Dragonfall is a completely different campaign (which surpasses its predecessor in every possible way and is probably the best CRPG since Alpha Protocol).

 

 

Yeah, Dead Man's Switch was pretty.. bad. I didn't try Dragonfall for a long time, because I lost interest after Dead Man's Switch.

 

Dragonfall - Director's Cut is amazing. It's got a great story, and almost all the mechanical pieces I want is there. Now I just want more control over the CNPC:s, some unique stuff for the PC (like CNPC:s get), and a better inventory (so.. an inventory).