Who is This God Person Anyway?

[Steve Holt!]

Hello.

 

This post ended up being longer than I thought it would, so sorry in advance for my stream of consciousness post.

 

Spoilers and stuff.

 

I just finished the game, and while Act IV gave some nice brain teasers, there's one thing I can't quite figure out. I guess the basic theme of Pillars of "what god do you worship?" which I thought Act IV did a pretty neat job fleshing out by calling into question a basic assumption that the game present in the prologue (the gods are real.) Specifically, the whole issue I have revolves around the 'realness' of the gods, but I can't tell what exactly the gods are. The people you meet seem to simultaneously reject the idea that the gods are real while referencing specific events that they very much seem to be a part of.

 

Magran and Woedica kill Eothas, for example. So, in my mind, there are at least 3 of the pantheon that are in some way 'alive', if they are going to scheme and plot and interact with the world. And especially if they are capable of dying.

 

Likewise, if you side with any of the gods to gain access to the tunnel of doom, they exercise tangible power to grant you safe passage through the pit. But they aren't real, right? They were created by the Engwithans as a form of control and order, right?

 

So what exactly are the gods then?

 

The closest I can find to any specific reference to what they are is that they are "ideas." I think either Thaos or the heretic makes this claim, so I guess you have to choose whether or not they are telling the truth / are correct. This initially led me to believe that there was simply nothing where the pantheon of gods sat, the fantasy world version of "we are a cosmological accident, but with magic." I thought it was a compelling argument and could even see why Thaos went on his crazy rampage through history. He even says something specifically to support this idea that the gods were constructed as a measure of control and were simply basic human ideas and desires when he mentions something about how, prior to the invention of the pantheon, people worshipped thousands of gods, subsequently rattling off a bunch of deplorable acts that people who do to sate their desire for purpose / power / comfort / whatever. This cemented my thought that the gods didn't actually exist, and were made up to keep society trucking along.

 

Then the epilogue happened. I used the bird lady to get me into the pit and didn't do what she wanted, so she sent a bird invasion to kill a bunch of people in response to my slighting of our agreement. I thought about that, and that told me that I made an agreement with something in the temple of the tree sisters, and that something had considerable power. The more I thought about it, the more evidence I found that these god people did indeed exist in some form and could indeed control, or at least influence the world.

 

1. I made a contract with something.

2. It directly influenced the world by killing a lot of people when I upset it (it has feelings and thoughts)

3. It's extremely powerful if it's capable of supernaturally influencing the world of kith (sounds like a god in a fantasy world to me)

4. They also killed each other (see Eothas) and I take Eothas' pedestal being nothing but screams as evidence of that

5. They can imprison people's souls and prevent them from naturally reincarnating. Not only that, they exercise control over the fate of souls (they allow the souls of the imprisoned to repent and re-enter the wheel. Whether they have control of the wheel or it's outside of their power is another issue)

 

So who are these god people anyway?

 

My take on it is that they're just Engwithan dudes and dudettes. You have an option to channel souls into specific people at the end of the game with their weird devil magic machines - into Dyrwoodans if you choose, or into Woedica if for whatever reason you ignored the first 3 acts and thought that was a good idea. The epilogue if you choose mentions how it empowers the people of Dyrwood, so my best guess is that the gods were Thaos' contemporaries who used these machines to do exactly that, on a much grander scale - imbue themselves with the souls of their peers to gain godlike power. For whatever reason, either by choice or consequence, they no longer exist as physical beings, but in the spiritual realm that you as a Watcher are allowed to glimpse. Consequently they can no longer directly influence the material world. Enter Thaos for some reason, possibly plot convenience, to make sure this whole scheme keeps turning. The wheel and the reincarnation of souls is a natural process that they don't have control over, but conveniently molded into their theology through Berath and all his lore.

 

What are your thoughts? I thought it was an interesting take on traditional fantasy lore. Most high fantasy games I've played have an established pantheon that are definite beings, so it was kinda interesting to try and think this one out.

[Zwiebelchen]

It's not about the gods being real, it's about the gods not being actual gods, but basicly huge piles of soul-essence created by the engwithians initially to give life a purpose.

 

So basicly, the gods are real. But they aren't gods. They are neither omnipresent nor are they impeccable. They are simply as flawed as the humans that created them. And that is the whole point of the plot twist in Act IV:

 

It raises the question that, if the gods were created by men and men designed them just to bring a purpose to life, aren't you, if you follow a god, more or less like following a mindless machine?

This is the main reason why Durance totally loses his mind when you bring him to Act IV. It basicly rendered all his past life meaningless. He is a mass murderer for building and detonating the godhammer. But he always justified it by following the orders of a greater god. Turns out it wasn't a god, but only a huge pile of souls created by some long dead animancers. So he was more or less supporting a genocide for the sake of some dead people.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[Tennisgolfboll]

Read my posts in the topic are souls atomic and it will be clear to you

[Talwyn224]

Gods were created by the people who worship them. 

 

I'd recommend reading the book "Small Gods" by Terry Pratchett. This goes a long way to explaining the relationship between mortals and gods and I think mirrors the situation we see at the end of the game. 

[Zwiebelchen]

Gods were created by the people who worship them. 

 

I'd recommend reading the book "Small Gods" by Terry Pratchett. This goes a long way to explaining the relationship between mortals and gods and I think mirrors the situation we see at the end of the game. 

 

The situation we have in PoE is absolutely and fundamentally different to the Discworld franchise. If you think they are similar, then you didn't understand either of the sides.

 

In discworld, faith is what makes, creates and maintains the power of gods (or any other non-godly entity, like the tooth fairy or Death).

 

In PoE, gods were created by men through engwithian machines. Neither to they draw power from faith or followers, nor can they vanish without followers. They are quite literally just huge stockpiles of souls. They are mechanical and "physical" (as in: they actually exist somewhere on Eora, not in the way that they have a physical body).

 

So your conclusion is basicly the complete opposite of what we have in PoE:

 

 

Gods were created by the people who worship them.

Gods were created by people for very worldly reasons. The worshippers came afterwards. The causality is reversed.

[Talwyn224]

Why is it that certain people feel the need to jump up and get all righteous and puffed up, and quite frankly come across as arrogant, on internet forums?

 

Zweibelchen, I would have enjoyed to have a discussion with you however the tone of your post and the words you choose to express your point of view leave me feeling nothing but pity and a degree of mild contempt.

 

You even contradicted your own argument at the end: "gods were created by people for very worldly reasons." The gods were created by people is the salient point here. They would not exist without people bringing them into reality. All else is extraneous after that fact. 

 

Don't bother engaging me any further because I don't want to argue with people who aren't at least that much respectful nor show any care in the words they choose to express their PoV.

Edited June 11, 2015 by Talwyn224

[Nakia]

There are several threads concerning the gods.    I am taking the skeptic path and asking myself "how much of what we are told cannn we believe?"

 

The following are opinions I have arrived at based on what is said in the game and other discussions on this forum.

1) The soul is the important theme in the game.  All power comes from it, Magical power, mind power,  Will, Resolve everything that goes into making a humanoid and also what animates things such as spores, ooze, animals etc.  It seems to be tied to Adra in some way but I do not think this is ever actually explained.

 

2) The Egwithians created the gods using Egwithian souls because they believed that they knew what was best for the people of the world.  To me this says that they wished to be the gods of the Eora.  They did worship the gods but became the gods themselves.

 

3) The gods are real.  They have the capacity to think, reason, feel.  They do have power.

 

4) The Kith of Eora do worship them as the Egwithians intended.

 

5) We end the game with more questions unanswered than answered.  The god Wael wins this round.

[Zwiebelchen]

Why is it that certain people feel the need to jump up and get all righteous and puffed up, and quite frankly come across as arrogant, on internet forums?

 

Zweibelchen, I would have enjoyed to have a discussion with you however the tone of your post and the words you choose to express your point of view leave me feeling nothing but pity and a degree of mild contempt.

 

You even contradicted your own argument at the end: "gods were created by people for very worldly reasons." The gods were created by people is the salient point here. They would not exist without people bringing them into reality. All else is extraneous after that fact. 

 

Don't bother engaging me any further because I don't want to argue with people who aren't at least that much respectful nor show any care in the words they choose to express their PoV.

 

I don't see any sentence in my post that was disrespectful. If it looks to you like that, then I'd say this was "lost in translation", as they say. English is not my first language.

 

And I didn't contradict my own argument. A half-sentence is a half-sentence. Put the second half away and you lose the critical bit. This is the fine and delicate difference between reading and understanding.

 

 

Gods were created by the people who worship them.

In this example and my response, the clear focal point is on worshipping, not on created by the people.

I explained how that causality is different and why it matters here.

 

It's the chicken and egg problem.

 

Gods in PoE are not about faith. They are about control. This is completely different to the Discworld universe, where gods are basicly at the mercy of their followers.

 

 

There are several threads concerning the gods.    I am taking the skeptic path and asking myself "how much of what we are told cannn we believe?"

 

The following are opinions I have arrived at based on what is said in the game and other discussions on this forum.

1) The soul is the important theme in the game.  All power comes from it, Magical power, mind power,  Will, Resolve everything that goes into making a humanoid and also what animates things such as spores, ooze, animals etc.  It seems to be tied to Adra in some way but I do not think this is ever actually explained.

 

2) The Egwithians created the gods using Egwithian souls because they believed that they knew what was best for the people of the world.  To me this says that they wished to be the gods of the Eora.  They did worship the gods but became the gods themselves.

 

3) The gods are real.  They have the capacity to think, reason, feel.  They do have power.

 

4) The Kith of Eora do worship them as the Egwithians intended.

 

5) We end the game with more questions unanswered than answered.  The god Wael wins this round.

 

I like where this is going. Keep it coming!

 

1) Adra was explained poorly throughout the game, I agree on that. From what I could extract out of the game context and the very few mentions of Adra, it seems like Adra is nothing but a "conduit" and "storage room" for souls.

 

2) I think it wasn't clearly mentioned that the Engwithians themselves merged into the gods. They could have also just tried perfectioning their creations from the outside. Which makes a lot of sense, considering that the gods are not physical matter to begin with and they couldn't manipulate the soul machine after merging themselves with the gods.

 

3) This is more or less confirmed by the Godhammer and Waidwen's death, yes.

 

4) They succeeded, yes, but if they intended the direction they got in the end is questionable. Looks to my like the Engwithians were kind of the greek philosophers of Eora. I think they initially designed it with a more "perfectionist" view.

 

5) Wael always wins. For if there wouldn't be a mystery, there wouldn't be a story. So Wael can more or less only lose off-screen. Unless we consider solving a riddle a loss for Wael.

You know what would make Wael sad? Watching a season of Detective Conan... :D

Edited June 11, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[Nakia]

 Zwiebelchen, I am going to make a guess that you are from one of the North European countries which has a pitch accent.   I have noticed that it doesn't always translate well into written English.  It is important that we all remember that tone is hard to convey when writing.  Your English is very good and so people may not realize that it is your  second language.  While tone is important in spoken English it is not a pitch language.

 

Now back on topic.  I think we are pretty much in agreement.  Regarding Wael the only way I think he can lose in PoE is if the Devs decided to give us pat answers, try to tie the subject up in some neat package.  "And they lived happily ever after" as the fairy tales go.  If Wael loses we all lose because when we stop asking questing, seeking for further knowledge we stop growing and become stagnant. 

 

I am making an assumption about the Egwithians that they are a normal mortal society which means they are layered.  By that  I mean there would be a relative few who brilliant scientists and there would be those who just accepted what ever they were told.  As far as I can tell from what is in the story Soul Essence is simply some kind of energy.  It comes alive when infused into a being with a mind.  That probably isn't stated well.    If this were SceFi instead of fantasy the Egwithians could have created computers and infused those computers with soul essence.  However the programs seem to have  a few bugs in them  

 

Except for Theos the Egwithians seem to have vanished.  However the Egwithians formed the gods I do see them trying to make themselves into gods or at least create gods in their image and likeness.   Either they failed or they were plenty flawed themselves.  Maybe there were different schools of though.  

[manageri]

The central question is "What IS a god"? Does simple having unrivaled power make you one? If so, then yes, PoE gods are "real gods". But this presents a bigger question, that has real world implications: Does being a "god" actually mean anything BEYOND how powerful you are? In other words, should we just blindly accept the "will of the gods" as inherently any more meaningful than the will of the village idiot who ****s his pants daily? And if so, WHY?

 

Why indeed does a "god", no matter what the being has done, or what it is, deserve any special treatment? Why should its will be followed blindly? Why should it be treated differently from all other persons, whose assertions we refuse to pay any heed to lest they contain an idea that makes sense? Because the being has power? Then how is that different from following the edicts of a tyrant who promises to reward its servants? Why, why, why?

 

The whole point of the entire story is to show that there is no WHY! No reason WHY humanity should look to the gods for answers. No reason why their answers, even if "true gods", regardless of what that means to any individual person, exist at all, should be treated as special. No reason at all to follow anything but their own logic, their own reason, to guide their way. If a "god" commands you to do something you find vile, why the **** should that command be treated any differently from one issued by a "mere mortal"?

 

No reason. We are, and always have been, alone, with only our own faculties to light our way. And no matter how powerful the being who commands us, nothing fundamental is different. THAT is what the change from "real" gods to man-made ones is supposed to show us.

[Yonjuro]

 

...

 

I don't see any sentence in my post that was disrespectful. 

 

 In much of the English speaking world (apparently, since I'm in the USA and Tawlyn224 is in Australia), these two sentences seem very blunt:

 

The situation we have in PoE is absolutely and fundamentally different to the Discworld franchise. If you think they are similar, then you didn't understand either of the sides.

 

 You probably just intended to make an emphatic statement but it can come across as rude in some parts of the world. 

 

 If, instead,  you had started off with something like, "Discworld deals with related themes but the causality is reversed" - that would have been less of a conversation killer. 

[majestic]

Oy, time to pull out the analyst hat! *dons*

 

 Zwiebelchen, I am going to make a guess that you are from one of the North European countries which has a pitch accent.   

 

Zwiebelchen is the diminutive form of Zwiebel - which is the German word for onion. Proper article handling in the posted sentences also suggests no native language rooted in the slavic group of languages. Sentence structure on the other hand also pretty much rules out romance languages but rather a germanic one and combine all that with a somewhat excessive, but proper(,) use of commas.

 

Conclusion: Most likely German, so no pitch accent (at least for standard or "high" German, dialects are another matter), just no sense of humor sprinkled with some bluntness. Plus Zwiebelchen posted about being German in the past so there's that. *shrug*

 

I'm kidding with the last part lest I'm being accused of being discrepectful for using national stereotypes. Really. I promise. Honest!

Edited June 11, 2015 by majestic

[Nakia]

Thanks,  majestic, that does explain a lot.    

 

Back to topic more or less.

Why do humans need gods, need a belief system?  I think it is because we are thinking creatures, we ask why, how, what and we seek answers.   Why does the sun rise in the east and set in the west?  Why are we here?  Where did we as a species come from?  Before telescopes, microscopes and all the fancy tools we now have people had to depend on their five senses and their brain for answers.

 

My impression from the game is that the Egwithians did not believe in gods so they created some in the hope of bringing order to their world.  What they created is real just as my computer is real.Their creations are not omnipresent, omniscient or omnipotent but flawed just as their creators were flawed.  They do have supernatural powers, powers beyond the average mortal.  They can interact with mortals and reward or punish them.  They are a force to be dealt with.  We should not underestimate them or dismiss them.

[Zwiebelchen]

Oy, time to pull out the analyst hat! *dons*

 

 Zwiebelchen, I am going to make a guess that you are from one of the North European countries which has a pitch accent.   

 

Zwiebelchen is the diminutive form of Zwiebel - which is the German word for onion. Proper article handling in the posted sentences also suggests no native language rooted in the slavic group of languages. Sentence structure on the other hand also pretty much rules out romance languages but rather a germanic one and combine all that with a somewhat excessive, but proper(,) use of commas.

 

Conclusion: Most likely German, so no pitch accent (at least for standard or "high" German, dialects are another matter), just no sense of humor sprinkled with some bluntness. Plus Zwiebelchen posted about being German in the past so there's that. *shrug*

 

I'm kidding with the last part lest I'm being accused of being discrepectful for using national stereotypes. Really. I promise. Honest!

 

Now I get that warm fuzzy feeling of being stalked... :>

 

And yes, german has no pitch accent. But debates here in germany tend to be a little bit more on the rough side of expressions. So maybe there's that. You can learn the language, but you can't learn the culture, so I apologize if my way of writing might have offended someone.

 

And yeah, out of the many false clichés about german people (many of them confuse bavarians, austrians or swiss people with germans), there is one that I'd consider true: a bad sense of humor. (But german is awesome if you like bad puns or like giant piles of letters: "Kreuzschlitzschraubenzieher" is a legit german word.).

 

 

To bring it back to topic, menageri pretty much sums up what the conflict is about here. I like the comparison of the PoE pantheon with tyrants. Basicly just "people" with more power than average. The danger comes with their forced extremist outviews: my way is the only true one, betray me and I will punish you.

This is what creates this weird dynamic in that even if you do something good, a "good" god will punish you in the end just for betraying them.

 

Take my Hylea example I brought earlier: from the description of her "realm" (for the lack of a better word), one would assume that she values life over everything and wouldn't hurt a fly. Still she causes a dragon rampage if you betray her at Sun in Shadows, even when selecting a solution that more or less falls into the same general direction (giving the souls to newborn instead of back to the hollowborn).

[Gromnir]

It's not about the gods being real, it's about the gods not being actual gods, but basicly huge piles of soul-essence created by the engwithians initially to give life a purpose.

 

 

 

is actual more fundamental than that.  Faith (or faith) is core game theme... questioning faith. sagani sacrifices years o' her life to because she does what the traditions o' her people require. years of time with family and loved ones she loses 'cause o' a tradition she ain't fully convinced has value.  is not faith in gods that she questions, but faith in the traditions o' her peoples. eder were not convinced that st. waiden (sp?) were eothas incarnate, but ultimately he had to make a choice 'tween following the god or the values he saw eothas as representing. all the companions got some kinda test o' faith.

 

the actual nature o' the gods in poe is a distraction and a very useful distraction. faith is The theme o' poe.  have gods that genuine manifest is robbing considerable meaning from questions o' religious faith. poe writers were clever and clumsy.  it not matter what is the actual nature o' the poe gods.  what matter is that the questions o' faith is possible.  durance's plight is the most raw and obvious manifestation o' a poe believer's faith being challenged, but he ain't alone.  bring into question the origin o' the current poe gods is kinda inspired.  we can have a game with manifest deities and yet their fundamental reality can be debated. oh sure, the poe deities is real and powerful, but what are they?  were they in fact created in some kinda ancient soul forge?  does it matter if the gods were created through human design? many questions, but most important is that the nature o' the gods is subject to question.  unfortunate, the poe writers were as clumsy as they were clever.  far too often the exploration o' faith were alternative rushed or bogged down by exposition.  perhaps the question were too big for a game o' poe's size.  dunno.  regardless, am thinking the nature o' the gods is not important.  is the question that is vital to poe.  the question makes Faith possible.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[NerdCommando]

The problem of the faith in this game is that is approached from an entirely wrong angle. First, whenever there were any sorts of theological questions in the game, I couldn't have shaked off a feeling that it's a western, post-christian worldview that's getting discussed here. Like, you know, the gods are supposed to be omniscient & omnipresent but they're not, what a bogus. However, that really shouldn't be the case - we're talking about a pagan pantheon here which also should be at least somewhat oriental in nature. Because reincarnation is a fact and, well, it's the easter religion & philosophy that tried to deal with this for, like, ages. And, like, Buddha has been a human - nobody really minds it. Of course, he's not really a god from a western point of view but, well, there are very little logical reasons that said point of view should actually get applied here. The setting just doesn't give any reasons for something like that to get birthed.

 

Second, even the word "faith" is not really applicable here. There is no faith in gods in PoE - there's a definite knowledge that they do exist. It's not a "you behave in this life and yeah, sure, you go to heaven when you die" - it's a pretty direct deal. Want to have something? Ok, here's the conditions, do this and you'll get it. Sure, depending on the deity, there may or may not be some extra issues - Skaen, for example, is pretty straightforward. Want you revenge? Become an Effigy and you're having it. Wael is a bit harder as you won't really know what you want and, well, what you get too. But then, that's sorta ok for his followers. So, all in all, the gods here are actually capable of making their followers "happy" (except for a Rymgrand, I guess, but him being a **** isn't really justified, tbh). As long as people are able to get what they want from the gods - why would they even care?

 

And see, that's the point why Iovara's uprising would never be successful in the first place - sure, he says that the gods are unreal. Gods instantly make a miracle happen. Yeah, they're unreal. Oh, sure, a missionary told her, now that's a very trustworthy argument that's gonna change the situation (not to mention that that's a really stupid thing on itself - considering how good these gods are at visions & such, they would hardly need to risk sending loose-tongued missionaries). Mind you, I'm not saying that the sure proof that the gods are artificial wouldn't change a thing - it would've, of course. It's just that without any real proof no one would actually believe that.

 

And I must say that, all in all, the rules of the gods themselves are too murky here (and, once again, western based). Like, the gods do not meddle in the affairs of mortals - sorry, but they were pretty much created to meddle with the affairs of mortals so mortals don't ruin themselves so efficiently (as they apparently did in the pre-god era). And they meddle on a constant basis - you know, Skaen and his effigies, Wael and his trickery, Galawain taking Hiravias's ear (more like Galawain testing each new druid personally). Not to mention that Woedica were breaking these rules from the very beginning with Thaos and it's not exactly clear why wouldn't they ignore rules to solve at least this matter. Honestly, what kills the plot of PoE for me is that there's no real logic here - the facts just flow wherever the story orders them. 

[Nakia]

Faith is not logic.  Although it can be based on logic.    I have faith that when I perform a certain action such as flipping an electrical switch  a light will go on.   We can have faith in ourselves, in another person or in some diety.  

 

I have no problem with how PoE as handled faith so far.  We end the game with the ending of the Hollowborn Curse but if the Watcher were to try and prove to the people in general that the gods are not true gods he or she would probably be killed as a heretic.  I think PoE is about faith.  Eder has faith in the teaching s of Eothas he doesn't need a living omnipotent god to have this faith.  Durance on the other hand needs a living omnipotent god to justify what he has done.

 

I think that so far the developers have handled things well by not giving us answers to questions that cannot be answered.  The sun does not rise in the east and set in the west that is an optical illusion.  The earth is round despite what my eyes say.I have seen the  aurora borealis and it is a wonder to behold.

 

It is quite possible to have faith in that which is real and in that which is not real.  It is when we stop asking questions that we become slaves to our faith.  Faith is a tool of the mind and should not be the master.

[Gromnir]

the suggestion that faith is necessarily diminished in a world where deities manifest and respond predictably to appeals from followers is not new to Gromnir, seeing as how we made such observation in our post above and in post going back to 1999.

 

more recent examples:

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/71202-deity-centered-world/?p=1586250

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61829-religion/?p=1256716

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/54229-dragon-age-discussion/?p=1013710

 

but again, by calling into question the nature o' the gods, even true believers is gonna be confronted with the possibility that their understanding o' the gods needs an addendum or two.  if the gods is man-made, then they ain't Alpha & Omega.  does that make a difference?  oh, and the nature o' poe gods is shaken by more than the overheard word o' dead missionaries. after all, the poe plot centers on a god's goto guy harvesting souls to power her up via a man-made contraption... a contraption s'posed built by the same folks that created the gods. no clear answer?  Good! definitive proof?  definitive proof would ruin the question. we got enough to give one pause, enough to make one question... faith.

 

as one can see from our linked posts, Gromnir clear ain't a fan o' pantheons o' meddlesome deities that manifest in the world.  that being said, what obsidian did were clever.  they has a pantheon o' meddlesome deities, but they managed to make faith and Faith themes worthy o' exploring.  am not fully satisfied with how obsidian handled faith/Faith in poe, but what they did were clever and deserving o' recognition.  obsidian managed to make Faith relevant in a crpg even if they failed to complete develop their themes. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Yonjuro]

Faith is not logic.  Although it can be based on logic.    I have faith that when I perform a certain action such as flipping an electrical switch  a light will go on.   We can have faith in ourselves, in another person or in some diety. ... 

 

 

 I think of 'faith' as being different from 'trust' or 'reasonable expectation.'  When you turn on a light, you have a reasonable expectation that the light will go on based on trusting that the people who wired the fixture did it correctly and of your own understanding of how it works.

 

 I think that is the distinction that NC and Gromnir were making. In the PoE world, there is actual evidence of the (artificially constructed) gods as opposed to belief without seeing that normally characterizes faith.

[Nakia]

Faith is trust in something or someone.  It is the belief that the person or thing will react the way we expect it to react.  This Durance's problem that his god did not react the way he expected her to.  It is why Eder was at least partially Eder fought against  Waidwen because he did not believe that he acted according to Eothas's beliefs and partially because he had faith in his brother and thought he had also chosen to fight against  Waidwen.

 

Whether constructed by mortals or not the gods in PoE exist and have powers.  People will believe in them, have faith in them.  What actual proof does the Watcher have to lay before people?  

[SlayerDorian]

It is interesting how rarely it gets mentioned that the whole theme is very similar to the real world.  The main difference being that there is proof that the gods exist.

 

Many (or perhaps even all) religions could have been created to control people.  Notions of heavenly reward for certain behaviors that also coincide with laws is a pretty common theme.  It would be rather tough to disprove unless there was some immortal dude who was around when it happened that could tell you about it.  And even if that dude said it was all made up to control the masses, who is going to accept that their god is not what they were told it was when they were first taught when they don't want that to be true.  Some more open-minded folks might.  But many wouldn't be capable of accepting it and even violently react.

Edited June 15, 2015 by SlayerDorian

[Yonjuro]

Faith is trust in something or someone.  It is the belief that the person or thing will react the way we expect it to react.  This Durance's problem that his god did not react the way he expected her to.  It is why Eder was at least partially Eder fought against  Waidwen because he did not believe that he acted according to Eothas's beliefs and partially because he had faith in his brother and thought he had also chosen to fight against  Waidwen.

 

Whether constructed by mortals or not the gods in PoE exist and have powers.  People will believe in them, have faith in them.  What actual proof does the Watcher have to lay before people?  

 

 

 I see what you mean. We could call that faith definition 1, but I think others in the thread were using faith definition 2, something closer to the biblical (Hebrews 11:1) version of faith:

 

 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

 

 By that definition, if you have evidence, it isn't faith. Hence:

 

the suggestion that faith is necessarily diminished in a world where deities manifest and respond predictably to appeals from followers is not new to Gromnir, seeing as how we made such observation in our post above and in post going back to 1999.

 

 and

 

... Second, even the word "faith" is not really applicable here. There is no faith in gods in PoE - there's a definite knowledge that they do exist. It's not a "you behave in this life and yeah, sure, you go to heaven when you die" - it's a pretty direct deal....

[Nakia]

 I agree that Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.  please note the bolded words.  It is not just wishful thinking it is something very solid, very real.  It is conviction.  It is something that people have been willing to live for, die for and kill for.  Faith can produce miracles, make saints of sinners and cause wars.  Faith should never be underestimated.     Which is why I do not think it possible for the Watcher to ever prove that the gods are not gods but constructs of mortals.  As Wael tells you who are you going to believe some mortal or some deity?  

Edited June 16, 2015 by Nakia

[Yonjuro]

 I agree that Faith faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.  please note the bolded words.  It is not just wishful thinking it is something very solid, very real.  It is conviction.  It is something that people have been willing to live for, die for and kill for.  Faith can produce miracles, make saints of sinners and cause wars.  Faith should never be underestimated.     Which is why I do not think it possible for the Watcher to ever prove that the gods are not gods but constructs of mortals.  As Wael tells you who are you going to believe some mortal or some deity?  

 

 In the game world there is actual evidence; evidence that can be seen, not "evidence" of things not seen.

 

 I agree that faith is powerful, that people kill and die for it and start wars over it. It can turn sinners into saints and vice versa. I certainly don't underestimate it.  

 

 However, it is just wishful thinking. It is very solid and very real to believers just as all delusions are very solid and very real to those who believe them.

[Silent Winter]

 However, it is just wishful thinking. It is very solid and very real to believers just as all delusions are very solid and very real to those who believe them.

 

^While we're on the subject of definitions:

A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.

Or from oxford dictionary:

An idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder:

 

Faith isn't the same as maintaining a delusion (assuming we're talking about real world faith as opposed to evidence in PoE that we got, if in a flat info-dump 'this is the way it is' way).

 

I think comparing questions of faith in Eora to ones in the real world is something of an overstep.  For one, it's a fairly short narrative to get into it.  For another, it's not the same situation.  There is clear evidence in Eora for (a) the gods existence and (b) the creation of the gods by Engwithans.  The latter isn't widespread though.

 

I think the people of Eora do have faith in things, but it's not the same.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Silent Winter