Religion

[Gromnir]

And please, no 'evil' religions. Only an idiot worships a god they believe to be actively malevolent. I really hope I don't have to explain why.

 

historically, you are incorrect. is more than a few malevolent gods in real world mythology that followers attempt to placate. sedna is a good example if you is wanting am example.

 

...

 

am hesitant to mention as it no doubt will cause problems. is a good argument that the judeo-christian God were a creation of jewish scholars as kinda a metaphor for chaos of the universe. ever read some old testament stuff and wonder why G seemed like such a wanker?

 

anywho... lots of malevolent gods in rl mythology who gots "worshipers."

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

The difference between an 'evil religion' and a religion in which the god or gods in question come across as ***holes is important. Almost all 'real world' religions of any significance fall into the latter category. You don't worship the God because he's malevolent and go around doing horrible things for him so as to make the world that much worse; you fear him and try to appease him so he won't turn his malevolence on you.

 

 

 

again. a large number real world mythologies include examples that reject your position. am not a personal fan of pantheons and game deities in general, but malevolent deities with followers and priests is a historical reality.

 

...

 

kinda makes sense if you thinks about how terrible and brutal life can be in some places where people has lived. is not hard to imagine that god hates you when you lives in places with terrible weather or frequent plagues and you take shelter in mud huts and have fire sharpened wood sticks as your only weapons to fend off those beasties that lurk in the darkness. now imagine a world where you gots actual observable manifestations of god's ill will towards you and your people.

 

worship evil deities to keep 'em from smiting you? is not much of a stretch for us.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[UncleBourbon]

Gromir, I think that is the point Miyagi was making; in the real world, there is little evidence of truly evil worshipping religions. If they do things - even human sacrifice - to the end of appeasing some dark force and preventing further suffering, it isn't really an evil religion in that it isn't a religion seeking to cause suffering/pain/destruction as much as it is seeking a greater good. There are seemingly few examples of groups of people, believing in a god of starvation for example, going around burning crops around the world, saying "Praise famine! Embrace hunger! Starve and be remade!"

[Death Machine Miyagi]

Oh I can see alot of real life people following a God like Bane, his basically just a divine dictator and RL mortal ones have plenty of followers. Bane promises rewards for service and attracts those that beleave might makes right. There's also the possiblity of reeducation camps and the like.

 

If there were a real-world Bane, my guess is they would do it very secretly and that Bane worship would be an accusation hurled at people, not something you'd wear on your sleeve.

 

I haven't followed Forgotten Realms in ages, but last I recall there was Zhentil Keep, a city openly under the rule of Bane worshippers. I can't imagine what having your city administered by followers of the God of Evil, Strife an Tyranny would do for the tourist trade.

[Death Machine Miyagi]

Gromir, I think that is the point Miyagi was making; in the real world, there is little evidence of truly evil worshipping religions. If they do things - even human sacrifice - to the end of appeasing some dark force and preventing further suffering, it isn't really an evil religion in that it isn't a religion seeking to cause suffering/pain/destruction as much as it is seeking a greater good. There are seemingly few examples of groups of people, believing in a god of starvation for example, going around burning crops around the world, saying "Praise famine! Embrace hunger! Starve and be remade!"

 

Pretty much. The typical depiction of an evil religion in D&D is a bit like the theistic equivalent of the Captain Planet villain who goes around polluting everything because...hey, pollution is awesome and look how evil I am!

 

*mad cackle*

Edited October 21, 2012 by Death Machine Miyagi

[Gromnir]

*sigh*

 

look. is easy to imagine malevolent deities, right? we got real world examples, and we can understand from pov of game mechanics, yes? so what is difficult about understanding the worship of malevolent game deities when they is meddlesome. is not imagined, but has genuine and tangible benefits to worship. we mention sedna above. is hard to imagine sedna demanding large numbers of drowning sacrifices? is hard to imagine a seafaring culture that might take to next step and resort to widespread evils to not only appease sedna but to garner her blessings?

 

am not seeing the difficulty in grasping. game deities not depend on Faith. is tangible benefits to following tenants of faith... which is just one reason why we loathe game deities.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Death Machine Miyagi]

*sigh*

 

look. is easy to imagine malevolent deities, right? we got real world examples, and we can understand from pov of game mechanics, yes? so what is difficult about understanding the worship of malevolent game deities when they is meddlesome. is not imagined, but has genuine and tangible benefits to worship. we mention sedna above. is hard to imagine sedna demanding large numbers of drowning sacrifices? is hard to imagine a seafaring culture that might take to next step and resort to widespread evils to not only appease sedna but to garner her blessings?

 

am not seeing the difficulty in grasping. game deities not depend on Faith. is tangible benefits to following tenants of faith... which is just one reason why we loathe game deities.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

One reason to worship a God is to have them do good things for you. Another reason is to keep them from doing bad things to you. I would agree Gods who are worshiped primarily because of the latter are fairly classed as 'malevolent.'

 

I would not agree any worship surrounding such a deity necessarily turns that faith into an 'evil religion', not even if it involves stuff like human sacrifice. This is because the ultimate aim is still to avert bad things, not cause them. You don't worship the God of Storms and Earthquakes with the hope he'll give you lots more storms and earthquakes; you worship him with the hope you'll get clear sailing and he won't smash down your house. More likely, you don't even properly worship him; you just give him an offering and keep your distance.

 

Maybe there are a handful of individuals who would worship Mr. Famine God with the hope he'll make everyone starve to death, but such people would be a lunatic minority and would certainly have no real luck establishing a major church or gaining lots of followers. People want fewer famines, in general, not more of them.

 

One thing that's funny about AD&D is that priests depend on the Wisdom attribute for their power. I would think this would mean that, the more powerful the Priest of Evil, the more likely they would be to sit down one day and think to themselves, 'Now, wait just a second: I'm worshiping an entity who actively encourages screwing over others to advance one's own power, and I'm expecting this entity to be grateful for my service and reward me for it when the chips are down. Wouldn't I have better luck being rewarded in the service of some god who disapproves of screwing over people the moment they cease to be useful? What am I doing with my life?'

[UncleBourbon]

*sigh*

 

look. is easy to imagine malevolent deities, right? we got real world examples, and we can understand from pov of game mechanics, yes? so what is difficult about understanding the worship of malevolent game deities when they is meddlesome. is not imagined, but has genuine and tangible benefits to worship. we mention sedna above. is hard to imagine sedna demanding large numbers of drowning sacrifices? is hard to imagine a seafaring culture that might take to next step and resort to widespread evils to not only appease sedna but to garner her blessings?

 

am not seeing the difficulty in grasping. game deities not depend on Faith. is tangible benefits to following tenants of faith... which is just one reason why we loathe game deities.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

One reason to worship a God is to have them do good things for you. Another reason is to keep them from doing bad things to you. I would agree Gods who are worshiped primarily because of the latter are fairly classed as 'malevolent.'

 

I would not agree any worship surrounding such a deity necessarily turns that faith into an 'evil religion', not even if it involves stuff like human sacrifice. This is because the ultimate aim is still to avert bad things, not cause them. You don't worship the God of Storms and Earthquakes with the hope he'll give you lots more storms and earthquakes; you worship him with the hope you'll get clear sailing and he won't smash down your house. More likely, you don't even properly worship him; you just give him an offering and keep your distance.

 

Maybe there are a handful of individuals who would worship Mr. Famine God with the hope he'll make everyone starve to death, but such people would be a lunatic minority and would certainly have no real luck establishing a major church or gaining lots of followers. People want fewer famines, in general, not more of them.

 

One thing that's funny about AD&D is that priests depend on the Wisdom attribute for their power. I would think this would mean that, the more powerful the Priest of Evil, the more likely they would be to sit down one day and think to themselves, 'Now, wait just a second: I'm worshiping an entity who actively encourages screwing over others to advance one's own power, and I'm expecting this entity to be grateful for my service and reward me for it when the chips are down. Wouldn't I have better luck being rewarded in the service of some god who disapproves of screwing over people the moment they cease to be useful? What am I doing with my life?'

 

Yeah, it sometimes breaks immersion. I've always just thought of them as sith-like; they're following/studying that god with the ultimate goal of usurping them and taking even more power for themselves (this was actually possible in some settings). That said, I think the only way they'd really have a decent recruitment rate would be through brainwashing (magical or not) and/or torture. Even marching through a town with a bunch of blackguards, forcing people at sword's point to give lip service would be desirable for such a god, most likey (at the risk of offending other gods).

 

As to the other discussion happening here, it brings up on of the classic moral quandries: Is a bad thing, done for a good reason, morally good or bad? And how about if you try as best you can to do something bad, but because of your own ineptitude, or the intervention of others, does that alter the guilt you face? I think this is the sort of non-alignment, moral ambiguity we can expect to face.

[Death Machine Miyagi]

As to the other discussion happening here, it brings up on of the classic moral quandries: Is a bad thing, done for a good reason, morally good or bad? And how about if you try as best you can to do something bad, but because of your own ineptitude, or the intervention of others, does that alter the guilt you face? I think this is the sort of non-alignment, moral ambiguity we can expect to face.

 

Its also associated with the simple reality of changing moral values. It isn't merely the question of whether a bad thing done for a good reason is still a bad thing; its that, by our standards, any number of things accepted as neutral or even moral goods by people in centuries past are in our eyes pretty damn bad.

 

So if the people of some culture see it as neutral or even good to sacrifice someone to a god, does it qualify as an 'evil religion'? They're doing what they think is right, not what they think is wrong. Its certainly a far stretch from a FR villain who practically walks around with 'EVIL' tattooed across his forehead.

Edited October 21, 2012 by Death Machine Miyagi

[kenup]

I understand what you are saying, but the list is growing a bit too much:

 

1-Low intelligence

2-Reputation (with factions)

3-Background

4-Race

5-Gender

6-Class

7-Religion

 

1, 2, 3 and 4 should be already accounted for, if I'm not mistaken. I surely have hopes for 5.

6 and 7 can be left out if it gets too much of a burden to implement.

 

 

That's my opinion, obviously.

I don't see the problem with classes, since there won't be VO everywhere especially. It's not like everyone in the world will care about the pc's class.

 

As for religion, I don't know. Gods seem to have a big influence on the world of PE. Though not everyone should know if you serve a god(and which one at that) or not. If there are gods to choose from, keep their recognition to the most zealous priests, Knight Templar type characters etc. Not everyone needs to bring it up, or telepathically know who you server or not.

Edited October 21, 2012 by kenup

[curryinahurry]

To steer this back to the OP's post; I think that one of the biggest problems in the D&D treatment of deities was the simple fact that they served as little more than sources of magic. There were really no negatives to worshiping a particular deity, no perils. If the gods are truly "meddlesome" in the PE game world, there should be more perils in following a particular faith if you are a priest. This might manifest in having agents of other gods work actively against you (all part of the faction system).

 

Also, I would like for there to be an American Gods type of worshippers + locale = power in the game. If you are the priest of a particular god, wouldn't it make more sense to have greater power where your god is favored and less power where a rival god is favored? This can manifest in reduced spell power or heightened power; bonus spells, etc.

 

Finally, I would like to see gods be more part of the everyday life of people, shrines in places of work ( a blacksmith might have a major shrine to the god of fire, with minor shrines to gods of earth and commerce as an example) where the PC can throw a few coppers, or interact in some other way. There should be greeting specific to people and tradesmen based on their gods as a way of currying favor (kill check?). It doesn't have to be only quest related is what I'm getting at, but more a living aspect of social interaction.

Edited October 21, 2012 by curryinahurry

[Kane_Severance]

Also, I would like for there to be an American Gods type of worshippers + locale = power in the game.

 

Great reference. I like the idea of gods competing for followers.

[rjshae]

Gromir, I think that is the point Miyagi was making; in the real world, there is little evidence of truly evil worshipping religions. If they do things - even human sacrifice - to the end of appeasing some dark force and preventing further suffering, it isn't really an evil religion in that it isn't a religion seeking to cause suffering/pain/destruction as much as it is seeking a greater good. There are seemingly few examples of groups of people, believing in a god of starvation for example, going around burning crops around the world, saying "Praise famine! Embrace hunger! Starve and be remade!"

In the Christian mythos we have the example of Satan, who would likely be perceived of as a Bane-like epitome of evil deity in a pantheon. Yet some people somehow find the idea of Satan-worship appealing. I can only imagine the reason is personal power and aggrandizement at the expense of others. Even if the goal of a Satan-like deity is the destruction of civilization, some people will still worship him (or her) because they gain some short-term benefit from doing so. This idea doesn't seem at all implausible to me because there are always some people who are willing to do anything, no matter how utterly vile and despicable.

[Veeno]

In the Christian mythos we have the example of Satan, who would likely be perceived of as a Bane-like epitome of evil deity in a pantheon. Yet some people somehow find the idea of Satan-worship appealing. I can only imagine the reason is personal power and aggrandizement at the expense of others. Even if the goal of a Satan-like deity is the destruction of civilization, some people will still worship him (or her) because they gain some short-term benefit from doing so. This idea doesn't seem at all implausible to me because there are always some people who are willing to do anything, no matter how utterly vile and despicable.

 

I never got the impression that Satan's goal is supposed to be the destruction of civilisation. I always thought he's just a dude living in hell who punishes bad people in their afterlife. Good Guy Satan! XD

 

Then again, I don't know that much about Christian mythos.

[JFSOCC]

I'll tear my eyes out and join the beholder at his right side.

I would enjoy little cults getting bigger throughout the game.

 

maybe that's a bit too much to wish for. the list of things "wouldn't that be wonderful" is limitless.

[UncleBourbon]

Gromir, I think that is the point Miyagi was making; in the real world, there is little evidence of truly evil worshipping religions. If they do things - even human sacrifice - to the end of appeasing some dark force and preventing further suffering, it isn't really an evil religion in that it isn't a religion seeking to cause suffering/pain/destruction as much as it is seeking a greater good. There are seemingly few examples of groups of people, believing in a god of starvation for example, going around burning crops around the world, saying "Praise famine! Embrace hunger! Starve and be remade!"

In the Christian mythos we have the example of Satan, who would likely be perceived of as a Bane-like epitome of evil deity in a pantheon. Yet some people somehow find the idea of Satan-worship appealing. I can only imagine the reason is personal power and aggrandizement at the expense of others. Even if the goal of a Satan-like deity is the destruction of civilization, some people will still worship him (or her) because they gain some short-term benefit from doing so. This idea doesn't seem at all implausible to me because there are always some people who are willing to do anything, no matter how utterly vile and despicable.

 

It does depend on perception, but largely, Satan is characterised as the fallen angel who wanted/wants to usurp god and create anew order of things. Often times this is depicted as a world of debauchery and limitless self-indulgence. Part of the common satanic philosphy is knowledge being power, and forbidden, demonic power being a way to get ahead. Depending on the doctrine (as there are actually various groups calling themselves satanic orders) this may be at the expense of an immortal soul for the sake of worldly gains. This is indeed along the lines on an evil deity with followers carrying out evil; however it may be arguable as to whether or not it is for evil reasons. Many argue that satan is trying to revolutionize heaven and earth so that humanity and other forms of life can excersize complete, uninhibited freedom, not just that which god allows.

[Pipyui]

I like the idea, but also think the list of categories is getting a bit long - I'd rather have fewer character traits and bigger impact, but I don't think there is some direct ratio. I was always partial to having my characters worship Ao, with the expectation of minor impact. I think maybe having a reasonable number of choices, each with a few different triggers might work. That, or a sort of bulk categorisation - I'm thinking along the lines of a split pantheon, maybe with two or three "major" deities, and a few "lesser" deities (still worshipped and such, but subserviant to) that are associated with them. This was, the reactions could be based upon the larger divisions. A bit of a compromise that may or may not work, depending on the setting.

 

That said, I certainly hope there are circumstances where you can honor Erothas, and perhaps suffer for it in areas, as that is forbidden in parts - I just want it implemented better/differently than the nordic deity in Skyrim.

 

I think I take a liking to this idea. Having too many religions would be difficult to manage in dialog. I say we stick to a few select religions (3 - 5), or on a different approach, have a few holy factions. Depending on how Obsidian wants to consider the role gods serve in their world, it might make sense that its people worship a single pantheon, but that this pantheon is split into a few holy factions that may compete/ally/abhore one another.

 

Edit: By single pantheon, I mean that all gods/godesses in it are accepted to exist, they just don't have to like each other. Less "my religion doesn't believe in your god" and more "my god doesn't like your god." I think this could be an interesting idea, and might make religion-specific dialog easier to manage.

Edited October 21, 2012 by Pipyui

[teknoman2]

they say there is a theocratic country somewhere so i suppose being of a different religion in that country could make you less than welcome

Edited October 21, 2012 by teknoman2

[Zoma]

The concept of souls in Eternity has some resemblances to Japan's Shinto where it highlights the importance of a soul's purity This can be an interesting comparison to real world's religion.

[Death Machine Miyagi]

In the Christian mythos we have the example of Satan, who would likely be perceived of as a Bane-like epitome of evil deity in a pantheon. Yet some people somehow find the idea of Satan-worship appealing. I can only imagine the reason is personal power and aggrandizement at the expense of others. Even if the goal of a Satan-like deity is the destruction of civilization, some people will still worship him (or her) because they gain some short-term benefit from doing so. This idea doesn't seem at all implausible to me because there are always some people who are willing to do anything, no matter how utterly vile and despicable.

 

Satan worship is actually one of the big examples I was thinking of when considering the absurdity of evil religions. Simply put, Satan worship has had much more force in human history as an accusation hurled at people than as an actual faith. It certainly has never been a credible competitor to Christianity, and to the extent that theistic Satan worship is embraced (setting aside the LaVey stuff) it is often embraced with Satan not representing 'evil' and 'nastiness', but rather representing a heroic figure who rebelled correctly against the evil Judeo-Christian God. In other words, they worship him because they think he's good, not evil.

 

I'm sure there are Satanists who run around embracing everything that is dark and nasty and terrible, but I'm guessing most of them have to keep quiet about it so mom doesn't ground them. Developed people who worship a deity tend to want one who will look out for them, not screw them over because 'screwing people over' is part of their portfolio.

[rjshae]

I'm sure there are Satanists who run around embracing everything that is dark and nasty and terrible, but I'm guessing most of them have to keep quiet about it so mom doesn't ground them.

Mmm... yes. I think I've seen a few of them on this forum, in fact.

 

Anonymuse, the great deity of all trolls.