Are Ciphers garbage after 1.05?

[Raven Darkholme]

But with 2 casts per rest, what does it matter? Don't forget we're talking level 1 here

[b0rsuk]

Grieving Mother is a lot weaker in 1.05 for me, but that's fine. I can still manage to cast 2 Pain Blocks a fight (level 7). My party is quite tanky - Pallegrina with Aura of Endurance, Itumaak can hold two darguls on his own (Resilient Companion). It's based on damage dealt now, so the decision to use Weapon Focus: Adventurer (for wands) bites me in the butt now. I guess I need a war bow.

 

Cipher still has an advantage over other casters - he can keep repeating the same spell over and over. Two pain blocks per encounter, I'd be empty after two encounters. Vancian casters require more strategic thought in spending spells.

[Akimbo]

They're still overpowered.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Akimbo

[mazeltov]

I don't care as long as they are having fun and I'm having fun.

 

A common sentiment on the forums. Go along to get along. Peace, love and harmony. An OP build in every garage, and a buff in every pot. Etc.

 

Luckily, the chief designer of PoE mechanics has a different view. For whatever reason, he thinks that balance is important in a single player game. Since the PoE franchise is already planned to grow into two expansions and a sequel, it behooves Balance Man to try to get the game on as solid a mechanical foundation as he can now, rather than make drastic changes later, after people have had more time to become wedded to their OP classes and abilities. A little bit of butthurt now saves a lot of butthurt later.

[MadDemiurg]

Balance != all classes being equal regardless of how you play them though. The class that requires you to left click on the mob and be done with it should not be as powerful as class using a variety of ability combos and adapting his tactics to different enemies. Effort should be proportional to the reward. This is balance.

Edited May 10, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[mazeltov]

Effort should be proportional to the reward. This is balance.

 

Maybe it is. That's for Balance Man to decide. The post I responded to rejected the idea that there should be balance at all. Again, a common attitude found on the forums.

[knownastherat]

The Balance Man can have any ideas  he wants as it will be upto Accouting Man to determine success or failure. But since Balance Man will not work with my money, I am cool with whatever the Balance Man decides. After all I am free not to buy into Balance Man ideas.

 

Well, good luck to the Balance Man, I guess. Lets hope your visions meet expectations.

[mazeltov]

The Balance Man can have any ideas  he wants as it will be upto Accouting Man to determine success or failure.

 

Sure. 'Course the game is already a commercial success with hundreds of thousands sold just on Steam, 90 Metacritic, etc. If the game flopped expansions would not already be in production.

 

A couple of surly forum posters complaining about how their favorite OP builds got nerfed (and will continue to be nerfed) will affect nothing.

[MadDemiurg]

I admire your faith in game designers of PoE. A lot of the nerfs and buffs of 1.04/1.05 were more along the lines of "a lot of people whined about it on the forums" or "I have no idea what I'm doing". The most cheesy stuff remains unchanged, many pointless nerfs of mediocre stuff, unneeded buffs etc. Game had a decent gameplay from the start, moronic AI and uninspired encounter design aside. Let's see what it will turn into by expansions/PoE2 and if they change it for better or worse.

Edited May 12, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Luckmann]

I still say 1/3 Focus, not 1/4, and that Mental Binding should be moved from Rank 2 to Rank 3.

[mazeltov]

I admire your faith in game designers of PoE.

 

It's not a blind faith. There is cause for optimism, I think. The patches are mostly going in the right direction, and more fundamental changes e.g. to Afflictions as a whole will take longer to work out. Any Obsidian title will have the prime focus on bug fixing for awhile after launch.

 

Plus JSaw literally went off to ride his bicycle in the woods for a month after release. He hath not yet truly begun to balance.

[MadDemiurg]

I still say 1/3 Focus, not 1/4, and that Mental Binding should be moved from Rank 2 to Rank 3.

As I said I personally don't agree with starting focus change at all, as it makes the class a little bit more dull, while not impacting overall power all that much. It also makes class even more dull for lower difficulties where battles are super fast. Moving spell a level would make it tricky to apply to existing characters, so I don't think they'll do it in a patch (maybe in an expansion). Soul shock nerf was also completely uncalled for tbh (and it's not even that much of a nerf since it's usually used on a tank surrounded by enemies anyway)

 

Here's my personal balance list for cipher:

 

Spells:

• Starting focus changed back
• Soul shock and mind blades changed back
• Ectopsychic echo and antipathetic field damage reduced by 20-25%
• Psychovampiric shield buffed to +20 deflection
• Mental binding - aoe removed, only single target paralysis now
• Phantom foes changed to fast (it needs some buff, no other ideas)
• Recall agony accuracy increased by 15
• Fractured volition and secret horrors accuracy increased by 15
• Pain link needs some rebalancing too, but I'm not sure what's the best way to do it atm
• Soul ignition damage buffed by 30%
• Silent scream 3 sec aoe stun
• Pain block reduced to 7 DT, heal reduced as well
• Ringleader duration reduced by 30%
• Tactical meld combat only
• Detonate damage buffed by 30%
• Wild leech allows you to select the stat or smth, too random to be useful atm
• Mind plague duration reduced by 30%
• Amplified wave aoe reduced to 5m, cast time increased to average
• Disintegrate cast time reduced to average, range increased

Talents:

• Greater focus changed to 2*level - If this change is implemented, starting focus can go down a bit, as it is now or to 1/3rd
• Psychic backlash changed to at will (basically it's still much worse than retaliate mod). Might also generate some focus when triggered
• Draining whip - I like the new one better, but since there are clear winners in terms of dps between weapons, it will remain unbalanced until weapon types are balanced

Devs, if you get any ideas from this, please don't cut the list to nerfs only

Edited May 11, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Exoduss]

1.06 will be all about nerfing wizards back to normal power levels , and buffing some random class that is already good like barbarian or a priest maybe :D i bet 10$ rangers,paladins,druids(spiritsh1t) wont be looked into .

Edited May 11, 2015 by Exoduss

[doctoruniverse]

 

I still say 1/3 Focus, not 1/4, and that Mental Binding should be moved from Rank 2 to Rank 3.

As I said I personally don't agree with starting focus change at all, as it makes the class a little bit more dull, while not impacting overall power all that much. It also makes class even more dull for lower difficulties where battles are super fast. Moving spell a level would make it tricky to apply to existing characters, so I don't think they'll do it in a patch (maybe in an expansion). Soul shock nerf was also completely uncalled for tbh (and it's not even that much of a nerf since it's usually used on a tank surrounded by enemies anyway)

 

Here's my personal balance list for cipher:

 

Spells:

• Starting focus changed back
• Soul shock and mind blades changed back
• Ectopsychic echo and antipathetic field damage reduced by 20-25%
• Psychovampiric shield buffed to +20 deflection
• Mental binding - aoe removed, only single target paralysis now
• Phantom foes changed to fast (it needs some buff, no other ideas)
• Recall agony accuracy increased by 15
• Fractured volition and secret horrors accuracy increased by 15
• Pain link needs some rebalancing too, but I'm not sure what's the best way to do it atm
• Soul ignition damage buffed by 30%
• Silent scream 3 sec aoe stun
• Pain block reduced to 7 DT, heal reduced as well
• Ringleader duration reduced by 30%
• Tactical meld combat only
• Detonate damage buffed by 30%
• Wild leech allows you to select the stat or smth, too random to be useful atm
• Mind plague duration reduced by 30%
• Amplified wave aoe reduced to 5m, cast time increased to average
• Disintegrate cast time reduced to average, range increased

Talents:

• Greater focus changed to 2*level - If this change is implemented, starting focus can go down a bit, as it is now or to 1/3rd
• Psychic backlash changed to at will (basically it's still much worse than retaliate mod). Might also generate some focus when triggered
• Draining whip - I like the new one better, but since there are clear winners in terms of dps between weapons, it will remain unbalanced until weapon types are balanced

Devs, if you get any ideas from this, please don't cut the list to nerfs only

 

 

No MadDemiurg! this would make the cipher class get closer to the "fun" range again. 

 

Many people in here would be angry at you if ciphers could cast more then 1 spell at the beginning of the fight. Infact its complete heresy. 

Edited May 11, 2015 by doctoruniverse

[MadDemiurg]

1.06 will be all about nerfing wizards back to normal power levels , and buffing some random class that is already good like barbarian or a priest maybe :D i bet 10$ rangers,paladins,druids(spiritsh1t) wont be looked into .

I don't think they will fully back out wiz changes as it would look as if they made a mistake. I bet it will be smth in between 1.04 and 1.05 in the end, or maybe they won't even touch it. Alternatively they will nerf the crap out of offensive spells turning wizard into a full gish.

 

Looking at barbs after OSA fix they could actually use a small buff (they were pretty hard to estimate previously).

 

And yeah. let's buff priest some more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3ENTVKRuqg&feature=youtu.be

 

For all I care, I'll be playing smth else by 1.06 probably, but i don't want to see the game butchered completely if I come back for an expansion.

Edited May 11, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Raven Darkholme]

 

1.06 will be all about nerfing wizards back to normal power levels , and buffing some random class that is already good like barbarian or a priest maybe :D i bet 10$ rangers,paladins,druids(spiritsh1t) wont be looked into .

I don't think they will fully back out wiz changes as it would look as if they made a mistake. I bet it will be smth in between 1.04 and 1.05 in the end, or maybe they won't even touch it. Alternatively they will nerf the crap out of offensive spells turning wizard into a full gish.

 

Looking at barbs after OSA fix they could actually use a small buff (they were pretty hard to estimate previously).

 

And yeah. let's buff priest some more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3ENTVKRuqg&feature=youtu.be

 

For all I care, I'll be playing smth else by 1.06 probably, but i don't want to see the game butchered completely if I come back for an expansion.

 

They won't touch wiz to make it like D+D.

Barb is ok in my book, I never touched him pre 1.05. but he was fun post 1.05.

[Psychevore]

Ciphers are still incredibly strong, I have no idea what you guys and gals are complaining about.

[abaris]

Ciphers are still incredibly strong, I have no idea what you guys and gals are complaining about.

 

Much ado about nothing. Some people simply want superman or wonderwoman without having to work for it.

[ramses01]

They have been nerfed beyond reason.  First was the pathetic arbalest nerf, then the nerf to mind blades and the coup de grace of 1.05 buried them for good.

[ramses01]

Ciphers are still incredibly strong, I have no idea what you guys and gals are complaining about.

 

At his point they are completely unplayable.

[abaris]

 

Ciphers are still incredibly strong, I have no idea what you guys and gals are complaining about.

 

At his point they are completely unplayable.

 

 

Speak for yourself. I just brought a Cypher to level 12 with 65000 total damage and the highest kill rate of all the characters. So either you expect to have some superhero or they aren't just not your cup of tea.

 

And as far as mindblades are concerned, they're still my opener in most situations and they are still incredible powerfull. I honestly don't know what you expect. Instant kill?

[Manty5]

You know, If we're going to be emphaizing the warrior side of Cipher more than in previous versions, then what's the excuse not to seriously drop the casting cost times one stage each?

 

You already have something limiting how fast you dump your spells... the focus gain.  So why not let the cipher cast and then get right back to hitting people with his weapon? 

 

Spell speed limitations make a lot more sense on classes whose only limit on their number of spells is the total number per rest or encouter.  But Cipher is a hybrid.  It needs to hit stuff constantly, not hit-hit-(Oh, we need to cast.  Time for a tea break!) then back to hit-hit again...

 

There's even a lore justification:  "While wizards use complex formulae in large tomes and priests tap into the passion of their faith, ciphers are able to operate directly through the power of their minds... and yours"  That sounds to me like ciphers can operate directly and swiftly with their abilities.  Frigging mind-ninjas who lash out with their abilities almost without pausing from their swordplay.

 

This would speed up focus regeneration (because you're spending a greater percentage your your time HITTING SOMETHING) to somewhat offset the lesser focus gain.

 

So let most spells be dropped one category of speed, and make currently "fast" spells into nigh instant.  We've already got focus controlling the spam, so why not?

 

It'd still be less OP than the wizzie's haste.

 

Edit:  Yes I know Cipher already has many fast spells.  What I'm saying is make casting time not distract a cipher from his physical attacks.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Manty5

[Guest]

I can't speak for early level Ciphers, but I just picked up GM (level 8 ) and I'd say she's pretty well balanced.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Achilles

[knownastherat]

 

The Balance Man can have any ideas  he wants as it will be upto Accouting Man to determine success or failure.

 

Sure. 'Course the game is already a commercial success with hundreds of thousands sold just on Steam, 90 Metacritic, etc. If the game flopped expansions would not already be in production.

 

A couple of surly forum posters complaining about how their favorite OP builds got nerfed (and will continue to be nerfed) will affect nothing.

 

 

Well, that begs the question: What is the purpose of the so-called balancing if the game was good enough at release?

 

There are indeed couple of posters here - the same few dozens posting - while another few dozens who used to post here left as they got their achievements already.

 

As I said before, I do not remember BG, for example, being constantly rebalanced and if I am to understand balance the way its presented here by players like you then BG had zero balance. Yet its legend, its standard for this genre. In other words, its not balance what makes a game "good" or "popular" let alone "fun".

 

By the time the alleged Balance Man, in the woods lol, will be done balancing there will be few playing the game as players move to other games. The game does not have "solid mechanical foundation" like D&D for example. If the balancing going on here will achieve the said foundation is yet to be seen.

 

Still, people play games because they are fun not because they are balanced.

 

 

PS You never saw me complaining about something being "unbalanced" or about nerfs/buffs, well, except my remark on Wiz Veil because that is lol. I do not really care about that. I am just wasting my time here questioning the purpose of the holy grail balance seems to represent for some.

[Razorchain]

 

 

The Balance Man can have any ideas  he wants as it will be upto Accouting Man to determine success or failure.

 

Sure. 'Course the game is already a commercial success with hundreds of thousands sold just on Steam, 90 Metacritic, etc. If the game flopped expansions would not already be in production.

 

A couple of surly forum posters complaining about how their favorite OP builds got nerfed (and will continue to be nerfed) will affect nothing.

 

 

Well, that begs the question: What is the purpose of the so-called balancing if the game was good enough at release?

 

There are indeed couple of posters here - the same few dozens posting - while another few dozens who used to post here left as they got their achievements already.

 

As I said before, I do not remember BG, for example, being constantly rebalanced and if I am to understand balance the way its presented here by players like you then BG had zero balance. Yet its legend, its standard for this genre. In other words, its not balance what makes a game "good" or "popular" let alone "fun".

 

By the time the alleged Balance Man, in the woods lol, will be done balancing there will be few playing the game as players move to other games. The game does not have "solid mechanical foundation" like D&D for example. If the balancing going on here will achieve the said foundation is yet to be seen.

 

Still, people play games because they are fun not because they are balanced.

 

 

PS You never saw me complaining about something being "unbalanced" or about nerfs/buffs, well, except my remark on Wiz Veil because that is lol. I do not really care about that. I am just wasting my time here questioning the purpose of the holy grail balance seems to represent for some.

 

 

Yep, AD&D was never balanced.  At higher levels the wizard became the powerhouses in the game and the other characters would defend the wizard so he could cast his most powerful spells in battle.  Here I am talking about pen and paper which I played for many years.

 

In Baldur's gate you could go the Kensai/Sorcerer or Kensai/Wizard dual class route and make a ridiculously powerful character. 

 

As for "solid mechanical foundation" of D&D, then I must say I don't exactly know....yes it has gone through many editions but lot of the rules in AD&D were utter crap.  Especially with all the class handbooks and additions.  The THAC0 system was really weird and unnecessary and got changed to flat + bonuses to the die roll in later editions.  

 

So yes...how did a game using such an imbalanced system reach such a cult status?  The story was good and the game was fun.  But most important you felt your character was special, he was the spawn of Bhaal and you felt you really made a mark on the world and the story revolved around your character.

 

Best game master tips ever:  Get your players involved, make their character feel special and they'll love you for it.