UK election special

[obyknven]

And winner is....

[Monte Carlo]

Yes, from a British POV, proportional representation is the old hippy adage made flesh - "don't vote man, the Government always wins."

 

Smug Euro coalitions, all back-scratching and wallowing in shabby consensus it's what's given us awesome governments like, er, France and Spain. Germany is different, because they have all the money.

 

I don't like elements of FPTP, it's brutal, what's happened to UKIP shows a democratic deficit. But they know our system. They have to develop grassroots political structures the hard way. Like hardy perennials in a well-tended garden, not fly-by-night knotweed.

 

That's how it works here. I think, however, a younger political generation coming up might not see it that way, but that's their prerogative. The only constant is change, and it will almost inevitably be a curiously British iteration.

 

As for Scotland. *shudders* it's a one-nation state of swivel-eyed loons at the moment. Not the Scotland I knew. It's like an old mate you haven't seen for a while suddenly joins the Moonies or something.

[Malcador]

Not fringes, they just have to work with smaller parties and compromise in order to win the support of those parties and serve the interests of the people who support them. Minority governments work pretty well given that the Executive and Legislative are the same damn thing in majority governments.

 

Proportional representation does make constituency a bit awkward, but I think a mixed system works around that

[Monte Carlo]

From an English POV it's looks like that old saying, "a camel is a race-horse designed by a committee."

 

Our last UK coalition was a newish experience for us, but I hated the "we-did-this / they-did-that" jockeying all the time. Vote someone in, let them implement their manifesto, if we don't like it vote them out.

[Nonek]

I was actually expecting UKIP to be wiped out far more convincingly in the general election, usually the public votes for them in by-elections as a protest and warning measure, and then abandons them when it matters, which really is quite a heartening reflection on the general public. However the millions of votes UKIP recieved in this election is a clear warning to all of the parties, and a break from tradition. Labour and the Tories should be wary of this, it is a sign of disillusionment in my opinion.

[Raithe]

Well, the issue that cropped up with the coalition of the Tories and LibDems, was that the LibDems was able to use it's part of "if we don't agree, you don't have a government" to call a lot more of the shots than they should of. Which basically had the party that most people did not vote for.. had a leading edge of power.

 

The swings and roundabouts of coalition groups is that the small group that sways it, has influence far beyond what they would have if based on their actual voting public.

 

Still, it's kind of amusing that various European countries have sent congratulations along with comments like "We're happy to see Cameron win, and we like his 'One nation, One United Kingdom', we just wish he'd added 'One Europe' to that statement..."

[Hiro Protagonist]

So what was the percentage of the UK population that voted?

[Nonek]

Probably shamefully low, which is always disappointing.

 

I do think that with the near total abandonment of the LibDems there does need to be a viable moderate party either forged from a redesigned LibDems, or launched as a new party, representing moderate and cautious good government: Sustainable economic policies, a clear renegotiation of our position in Europe so that we may plan for the future, a championing of our free speech and a rolling back of the surveillance led nanny state, and a focus on excellence in technology, science and innovation within our industries so that our manufacturing base can recover.

 

i doubt this will happen however.

 

Edit: With the SNP's ascendancy it could also be argued that the United Kingdom needs to be renegotiated, it's alright handing more self rule powers to the Scots, but similarly the Welsh and English needs to be represented equally. A number of self rule measures may actually make for a stronger union, with a viable future rather than the devolvement we are almost certainly heading towards.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Nonek

[Elerond]

So what was the percentage of the UK population that voted?

 

BBC says 66.1%

[Hiro Protagonist]

That seems pretty high compared to previous elections?

 

Actually, I was looking at previous election turnouts and it seems to be around that figure. 60-70 mark. I was thinking it might be lower, like America low but that's not too bad.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AonYZs4MzlZbdGc1ZXlsdXdwTTM4dTFCUTZRWDE1aXc#gid=0

Edited May 8, 2015 by Hiro Protagonist

[Raithe]

Well I do know that in the south the Tories were really pushing the "It's Election day, go vote, don't just sit back and ignore it" message much harder than has been happening in the past.

[Guard Dog]

SNP

Socialist nationalist party seeks ethnic re-awakening while blaming foreigners for all problems, during economic trouble. Seeks to unite Europe. Nothing worrying here at all.

 

I spit up my coffee when I read that!

[BruceVC]

That seems pretty high compared to previous elections?

 

Actually, I was looking at previous election turnouts and it seems to be around that figure. 60-70 mark. I was thinking it might be lower, like America low but that's not too bad.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AonYZs4MzlZbdGc1ZXlsdXdwTTM4dTFCUTZRWDE1aXc#gid=0

It was high, apparently the highest since 1997 or so 

[Zoraptor]

Well, the issue that cropped up with the coalition of the Tories and LibDems, was that the LibDems was able to use it's part of "if we don't agree, you don't have a government" to call a lot more of the shots than they should of. Which basically had the party that most people did not vote for.. had a leading edge of power."

The issue with fptp being that the Tories are, now, also not the party that most people voted for- most people voted for other parties and didn't want the tories. At least with the coalition most people did vote for the two parties combined, just. Even the big landslide victories of the bliars and maggies had well under the majority of the voters voting for them, they were at best in the low forties. MMP and fptp sux, STV 4 lyfe, no member lists and proportional results best of both worlds.

 

In any case it doesn't really matter if the libdem dog wagged the tory tail, because coalition is always a poisoned chalice for the lesser partner. They get stuffed if the ruling party get stuffed but if the ruling party does well it's usually because it cannabalises the partner's vote. That has happened every single time here. Clegg was an idiot either way.

 

And the overall result is exactly as happened here. Inaccurate polls, highly negative campaign by the ruling party, everything. Lord Ashcroft must have got some good mileage out of flying out here for advice, because Cameron's campaign was pure John Key.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Zoraptor

[Raithe]

The trouble with politics these days seems that it ends up with not really wanting to vote for any of the buggers that are running because they're pretty much all equally unlikable, smarmy liars backed by PR spin. But then if you don't actually cast a vote for one of them, you can't really complain about the idjits that do end up in government...

[Darth InSidious]

 

Smug... back-scratching and wallowing in shabby consensus

 

Which is also true of political parties in the first place.

 

 

So Conservatives will govern again, do they need a coalition partner?

 

Its not a bad result, from an outsiders perspective this doesn't seem like a bad outcome. They have done a good job overall, the UK  economy has recovered for example?

 

They've (re-)inflated a housing bubble, allowed most of our capital city to (continue to) be sold to Russian mobsters, and engendered the creation of a great number of zero-hours jobs. They've cut government services and failed to make savings from it. So no, not really. But no British government has done a good job since the War.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Darth InSidious

[Meshugger]

 

 

Smug... back-scratching and wallowing in shabby consensus

 

Which is also true of political parties in the first place.

 

 

So Conservatives will govern again, do they need a coalition partner?

 

Its not a bad result, from an outsiders perspective this doesn't seem like a bad outcome. They have done a good job overall, the UK  economy has recovered for example?

 

They've (re-)inflated a housing bubble, allowed most of our capital city to (continue to) be sold to Russian mobsters, and engendered the creation of a great number of zero-hours jobs. They've cut government services and failed to make savings from it. So no, not really. But no British government has done a good job since the War.

 

 

This is probably one of the reasons why i have become more fan of the nightwatcher state in the past few years. Maximum political power should go the local municipalities, where the elected officials will be living among the constinuents. The function of the central government should only be military defense, securing the rights of the citizens according the constitution and national infrastructure. 

 

This promotes personal responsibility, which minimizes the risk of creating unnecessary government bodies, filled with beaurocrats doing nothing of value. As for healthcare, the state will pay for the insurance, thus allowing local hospitals with local tax money and private clinics exist.

 

Yeah, i'm a dreamer.

[Raithe]

Looking back history wise, the one thing I do kind of half wish, is that Spitting Image hadn't shredded John Major's credibility. He did seem to be a Prime Minister who was capable, was not smarmy, and just wanted to get the job done... but unfortunately didn't have the sparkling charisma. So when Spitting Image satirised him as the "boring, grey man" it just killed his chance for election because to the public perception, he became that caricature.

 

Then we ended up with Tony Blair. And look what he did to the country.

[Raithe]

[BruceVC]

 

 

Smug... back-scratching and wallowing in shabby consensus

 

Which is also true of political parties in the first place.

 

 

So Conservatives will govern again, do they need a coalition partner?

 

Its not a bad result, from an outsiders perspective this doesn't seem like a bad outcome. They have done a good job overall, the UK  economy has recovered for example?

 

They've (re-)inflated a housing bubble, allowed most of our capital city to (continue to) be sold to Russian mobsters, and engendered the creation of a great number of zero-hours jobs. They've cut government services and failed to make savings from it. So no, not really. But no British government has done a good job since the War.

 

We have property in London and when I visit the capital and stay there  two things that most local people talk about are 

 

• Property prices in London  are very expensive and only foreigners  can afford them
• There are many Arabs and Russians who are now effectively buying up London

 

My argument to this would be 

• The market determines the price of a particular property based on numerous factors like location. Is it the governments fault that a flat is that expensive in Chelsea?
• Its a global world, can you really prevent wealthy people from other countries from investing in areas like property? How would you reasonably prevent this?

[Walsingham]

The housing market is a perfect example of point one, post one. The British public are cretins.

 

Two fundamental issues they want resolved:

 

- They want to be able to buy and rent more affordably

- They don't want their houses to lose value

 

THESE ARE MUTUALLY ****ING EXCLUSIVE IN THE ONE MARKET.

[Walsingham]

Supplemental:

 

[Monte Carlo]

 

 

 

Smug... back-scratching and wallowing in shabby consensus

 

Which is also true of political parties in the first place.

 

 

So Conservatives will govern again, do they need a coalition partner?

 

Its not a bad result, from an outsiders perspective this doesn't seem like a bad outcome. They have done a good job overall, the UK  economy has recovered for example?

 

They've (re-)inflated a housing bubble, allowed most of our capital city to (continue to) be sold to Russian mobsters, and engendered the creation of a great number of zero-hours jobs. They've cut government services and failed to make savings from it. So no, not really. But no British government has done a good job since the War.

 

We have property in London and when I visit the capital and stay there  two things that most local people talk about are 

 

• Property prices in London  are very expensive and only foreigners  can afford them
• There are many Arabs and Russians who are now effectively buying up London

 

My argument to this would be 

• The market determines the price of a particular property based on numerous factors like location. Is it the governments fault that a flat is that expensive in Chelsea?
• Its a global world, can you really prevent wealthy people from other countries from investing in areas like property? How would you reasonably prevent this?

 

 

You do what most other countries do and impose a property tax on foreign nationals. Although, Bruce, it's lovely to see you embrace Globalised, low-tax ideology when it turns out your family own a multi-million pound property in one of the most expensive Boroughs in the UK.

 

Like most left-wing SJW types, you've never had an opinion you couldn't afford.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

Smug... back-scratching and wallowing in shabby consensus

 

Which is also true of political parties in the first place.

 

 

So Conservatives will govern again, do they need a coalition partner?

 

Its not a bad result, from an outsiders perspective this doesn't seem like a bad outcome. They have done a good job overall, the UK  economy has recovered for example?

 

They've (re-)inflated a housing bubble, allowed most of our capital city to (continue to) be sold to Russian mobsters, and engendered the creation of a great number of zero-hours jobs. They've cut government services and failed to make savings from it. So no, not really. But no British government has done a good job since the War.

 

We have property in London and when I visit the capital and stay there  two things that most local people talk about are 

 

• Property prices in London  are very expensive and only foreigners  can afford them
• There are many Arabs and Russians who are now effectively buying up London

 

My argument to this would be 

• The market determines the price of a particular property based on numerous factors like location. Is it the governments fault that a flat is that expensive in Chelsea?
• Its a global world, can you really prevent wealthy people from other countries from investing in areas like property? How would you reasonably prevent this?

 

 

You do what most other countries do and impose a property tax on foreign nationals. Although, Bruce, it's lovely to see you embrace Globalised, low-tax ideology when it turns out your family own a multi-million pound property in one of the most expensive Boroughs in the UK.

 

Like most left-wing SJW types, you've never had an opinion you couldn't afford.

 

   Monte thats nasty

 

My family is investing most of our money outside South Africa in property, considering the potential uncertainty with some aspects of the future of South Africa I would say this is  prudent?

 

We are all committed to South Africa but that doesn't mean you should have all your eggs in one basket if you are able to. Also my family is from the UK so I see the UK as my second home outside of South Africa, its the only place I would like to immigrate to as I feel the  most connection to the UK

[Monte Carlo]

What? Whhhaaaatt?

 

The Rainbow Nation isn't a harmonious melting pot of fairness, a jubilee of hope?

 

You're kidding me, right?