Shouldn't all spells be per combat encounter? Not per rest?

[luzarius]

UPDATE, April 29

 

I couldnt' resist the temptation of starting from a fresh slate. There are npc's that let you rest conveniently.  I couldn't help it and rested after each fight.  I WAS WEAK (Raedric's hold)

 

UPDATE:

 

SOLUTION: I've decided to incorporate a variation of scrotiemcb's idea.  Once you enter an area, you can't leave until it's cleared and you've used all your camping supplies. I've defined an area as a place you transition to and from.

 

Example #1: Outside of Readric's hold is an area, once the outside area is clear, you can go rest at an inn, but only when you've used all your camping supplies first.

Example #2: Inside of Raedric's hold is an area, once the inside is clear, you can go rest at an inn, but only when you've used all your camping supplies first.

Example #3: Radedric's dungeon is technically it's own area, once the area is clear, you can only go back to the inn and rest once you've used all your camping supplies first.

Example #4: Magran's fork is an area. You can only go back to the inn to rest when the entire area is clear and you've used all your camping supplies.

 

This seems to be a good starting point.  Keep in mind I'm on POTD and TOI settings.

 

OLD ORIGINAL POST:

 

I'm trying to understand why a lot of spells are per rest instead of per encounter.

 

Per rest means after each fight I have to run all the way back to rest at an inn or use camping supplies which is a time sink, this isn't really a penalty and more of an annoyance.

 

Keep in mind I play on POTD, TOI, blind playthrough, so I usually don't hold back when fighting. I approach each fight with overwhelming force to ensure victory.  The problem is having to constantly use all the camping supplies or having to constantly go back to the inn and rest.

 

Would it really change anything if all spells were switched to per combat encounter instead of per rest?

 

OLD UPDATE:

 

I've come to this conclusion - Since there is no penalty or resource drain for resting, then it leaves the current resting and per rest ability system in a flawed and exploitable state. (Resting for free is exploitable).

 

Btw, I love this game even in the current state so it's not that big of a deal.

Edited April 29, 2015 by luzarius

[Sanctuary]

Your initial playthrough shows how weak/bad the spell limitiation is.  If you don't hold back, you won't have what you need for bigger encounters, but if you hoard spells too much, you'll never actually be using them much; because you're too worried about what "might" be around the corner.

Also, if you are talking about Wizards and Druids specifically, things change at

level nine and eleven

, but I still think that's a bit too far into the game.

Some posters around here love to call it "depth" and "strategy", but it really isn't.  It's a class imbalance.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Sanctuary

[VahnXIII]

Managing limited resources has always been part of the classic cRPG's. Some people enjoy this and others don't. People will vigorously defend their opinions either way. For me, I like having spells per rest and limited camping supplies. It makes me play smart and manage my resources appropriately. 

[GrinningReaper659]

I'm trying to understand why a lot of spells are per rest instead of per encounter.

 

Per rest means after each fight I have to run all the way back to rest at an inn or use camping supplies which is a time sink.

 

Keep in mind I play on POTD, TOI, blind playthrough, so I usually don't hold back when fighting. I approach each fight with overwhelming force to ensure victory.  The problem is having to constantly use all the camping supplies or having to constantly go back to the inn and rest.

 

Would it really change anything if all spells were switched to per combat encounter instead of per rest?

 

You're doing it wrong. The encounters weren't designed in such a way that you will need to sleep after every battle at any difficulty. Luzarius, I'm 90% sure you're a troll based on your post history, but I'm willing to respond because of that 10%. Now, if you want to play things your own way and rest after every single fight then that's fine, but don't expect the devs to accomodate your whacky playstyle at the cost of hurting other playstyles. If you decided to never rest, for example, you might come on here and explain how you refused to ever rest and that's why you need all spells to be per encounter and also why you need all health to regen after each encounter. However, the devs wouldn't be obligated to listen to your request, because never resting is a decision which you made which runs contrary to the design of the game. You do you, but don't expect the devs to also do you. that's just not right.

 

 

Your initial playthrough shows how weak/bad the spell limitiation is.  If you don't hold back, you won't have what you need for bigger encounters, but if you hoard spells too much, you'll never actually be using them much; because you're too worried about what "might" be around the corner.

 

Also, if you are talking about Wizards and Druids specifically, things change at

level nine and eleven

, but I still think that's a bit too far into the game.

Some posters around here love to call it "depth" and "strategy", but it really isn't.  It's a class imbalance.

 

No. Luzarius choosing to spam all his most powerful spells and not worry about taking damage and then rest after every encounter doesn't prove that spell limitations are flawed or anything else for that matter.

[rheingold]

Yup, not much wrong with the spells on rest, though it would be nice if Druids and wizards got per encounter earlier than 9th level. To be honest if they changed all their spells to per encounter instead of rest that would be seriously imbalanced. Nothing would be able to compete with a druid or wizard then. And the devs would then have to nerf the 2 classes which would be rather silly. Best to avoid this mess by conserving your spells....

Edited April 28, 2015 by rheingold

[b0rsuk]

I'm trying to understand why a lot of spells are per rest instead of per encounter.

 

Per rest means after each fight I have to run all the way back to rest at an inn or use camping supplies which is a time sink.

 

Only if you can't adapt and develop new tactics.

[Luckmann]

[...]

 

Would it really change anything if all spells were switched to per combat encounter instead of per rest?

Yes. Dear god, yes. Yes for more reasons than I can possibly explain to you. Christ, how can you even ask this question?

 

If anything, the blanket Per-Encounter bumps for Spellcasters at level 9 and 11 should be dropped completely.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Luckmann

[b0rsuk]

Would it really change anything if all spells were switched to per combat encounter instead of per rest?

 

You would open every fight with Relentless Storm, Sunlance, Conjure Greater Blight, Firebug or Plague of Insects. Then enemy dies. Another fight, identical choice of spells. You'd forget about level1-3 spells completely.

 

You could win the game with a party of 6 druids. Summon blights every single fight (the first is at level2). 6 druids * 4 spells = 24 blights per battle just from level2 spell without Bonus X Spell talents.

Edited April 28, 2015 by b0rsuk

[Tigranes]

"Keep in mind I play on POTD, TOI, blind playthrough, so I usually don't hold back when fighting. I approach each fight with overwhelming force to ensure victory.  The problem is having to constantly use all the camping supplies or having to constantly go back to the inn and rest."

 

=> "I play in a way that is extremely wasteful of the limited resources that I am given. This creates some frustrations. I think the game should be fixed so that my decision to ignore the strategic decisions presented by the game becomes reasonable."

[luzarius]

Nice response:

- Okay no problem.

 

Mean response (open at your own risk, you've been warned).

 

I'm not going to expect people to understand the math, science, logic and hard truth behind my reasoning. No death ruleset, dead is dead, trial of iron forces you to understand the game in its entiriety, every nook, every cranny.

 

 

NOW, since you guys like the current system so much, here is what I propose:

 

Path of The Damned - New Rule

 

- Resting at an inn costs 250 to 500 copper.

- Camping supplies cost 250 to 500 copper.

- (Optional) This is just an idea, but there should be an item you acquire called a "resting token", that can be used at an inn to rest.  These can only be found by adventuring through out the game.  This is a raw idea and would need to be improved and built upon, it's a RAW IDEA.

 

This is the only way I can see to solidify and make per rest magical abilities actually have value, meaning and worth.  If the above rules are implemented, THEN it makes your guys logic have meaning. I REPEAT, everything you guys mentioned has NO value, unless the above rule gets implemented.  All of a sudden if I want to go rest and replenish my per rest magical abilities, I have to make sure I can afford it.  Only now would tactics & strategy will come into play if I constantly have to drain my money (resource) to rest.

 

There is no penalty of any kind for resting, which leaves the current system in a flawed and exploitable state.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love this game, unfortunately it's a bit easy, even on the hardest difficulty.

Edited April 28, 2015 by luzarius

[scrotiemcb]

This is the third thread I've said this in. Oh well.

 

Limiting camping supplies isn't enough to actually stop players from resting whenever they want. The game needs to limit camping supplies AND prevent players from leaving areas until quests/tasks are complete.

 

Some examples from act 1

 

* if you leave the temple of Eothas to rest at the inn, you return to find Raedric's guards sealing it back up. If you talk to them, it seems Wirtan has been slain.

* if you climb up the vines to gain access to the sanctuary in Raedric's Keep, then go back to Gilded Vale, you find on your return the vines have been cut, and you need to find another way in. Also, the high priest only grants you one rest - he's not that generous to allow another.

 

 

This would work best with optional quests, giving your party a chance to fail them if they retreat. However, that's fine; properly limiting camping for the main storyline isn't vital, so long as the system has a place to shine.

[luzarius]

Limiting camping supplies isn't enough to actually stop players from resting whenever they want. The game needs to limit camping supplies AND prevent players from leaving areas until quests/tasks are complete.

 

Prevent players from leaving the area? Hmmm, that would make camping supplies have a great deal of value. That's a pretty clever idea.  I wouldn't mind seeing this for POTD difficulty.

 

 

if you leave the temple of Eothas to rest at the inn, you return to find Raedric's guards sealing it back up. If you talk to them, it seems Wirtan has been slain.

 

The first time I played this game, I was actually worried about this happening. I thought that if I waited to long that Raedric's guards would show up.  I also agree with this idea.

 

 

* if you climb up the vines to gain access to the sanctuary in Raedric's Keep, then go back to Gilded Vale, you find on your return the vines have been cut, and you need to find another way in. Also, the high priest only grants you one rest - he's not that generous to allow another.

100% agreed, this is another clever idea. Too bad that game isn't moddable *sigh*.

[Dadalama]

Yeah Vancian magic was always a pretty crap holdover from D&D. There's a reason that it's the only pnp game that currently uses vancian magic.

[johnmr531]

This is the third thread I've said this in. Oh well.

 

Limiting camping supplies isn't enough to actually stop players from resting whenever they want. The game needs to limit camping supplies AND prevent players from leaving areas until quests/tasks are complete.

 

Some examples from act 1

 

* if you leave the temple of Eothas to rest at the inn, you return to find Raedric's guards sealing it back up. If you talk to them, it seems Wirtan has been slain.

* if you climb up the vines to gain access to the sanctuary in Raedric's Keep, then go back to Gilded Vale, you find on your return the vines have been cut, and you need to find another way in. Also, the high priest only grants you one rest - he's not that generous to allow another.

 

 

This would work best with optional quests, giving your party a chance to fail them if they retreat. However, that's fine; properly limiting camping for the main storyline isn't vital, so long as the system has a place to shine.

Exactly people are exploiting the rest system by back tracking to the inn. So the devs need to prevent people from exploiting.  This could either be by stopping them from going back, respawning the enemies if the player leaves the area incomplete or spawn enemies at the player on the way out for not completing the area.

Edited April 28, 2015 by johnmr531

[Tigranes]

"I insist on exploiting the system to make the game much easier for myself. Clearly, the solution is to make resting much harder for everybody, including people who struggle with lower difficulties. What? You mean maybe I shouldn't run back to the inn every ten minutes? That's just crazy talk! Oh, by the way, you guys all suck, this game is so easy."

 

Awwwwkay.

 

I actually would support more stringent resting limitations, but it's clear this would raise hell from many, many prospective players.

[scrotiemcb]

I think respawning enemies should be used very infrequently, if ever. However, scripted events which only occur if you attempt to retreat would be nice.

 

Oh, and on your first visit to Caed Nua...

I'd just have the gates close behind you. Instead of a disincentive for retreating, you literally can't. It's haunted, so it works. Just shouldn't be overused. This is one way to do "no retreats" on cannot-fail quests.

 

 

One thing though: this shouldn't apply at all to casual exploration. If there isn't a quest (or at least a task) associated with it, you should feel free to rest-spam all you want. That said, some of the optional wilderness encounters should be brutal.

Edited April 28, 2015 by scrotiemcb

[Tigranes]

Again, I'd find that an interesting challenge. I think you'd get ten times the number of current camping complainers coming in to go MY ONLY SAVES ARE AUTOSAVE & QUICKSAVE IN CAED NUA AND I CANT GET OUT THIS GAME SUCKS. 

 

Resting is notoriously difficult to balance for various players because it's so punishing for some players. They tried by scaling available camping supplies. I think resting should also have been more expensive (though this leads to people crying "I'm stuck, I can't rest because I'm broke and I can't get more money because I need to rest"), but if you're going to exploit the system in such an inconvenient and time-wasting way by running back to the inn all the time, then you have only yourself to blame if the game is too easy or frustrating.

[Captain Shrek]

Maybe reduce the trash combat from the game? That might make per encounter D4D mechanics unnecessary. 

[luzarius]

"I insist on exploiting the system to make the game much easier for myself. Clearly, the solution is to make resting much harder for everybody, including people who struggle with lower difficulties. What? You mean maybe I shouldn't run back to the inn every ten minutes? That's just crazy talk! Oh, by the way, you guys all suck, this game is so easy."

 

Awwwwkay.

 

I actually would support more stringent resting limitations, but it's clear this would raise hell from many, many prospective players.

 

I see your point. But I've been doing no death, dead is dead, ironman, trial of iron rulesets for years. The first rule is to never limit yourself in any way, the game shows you no mercy during combat, so you have to do the same if you want to survive.   Exploiting bugs is not permitted, I never exploit bugs, but resting over & over for free is not a bug, it may be considered an exploit or an intended mechanic? I'm not sure. I was hoping to gain more info here on the forum.  It seems like free resting is a mechanic Obsidian agreed to allow players to use as they see fit, but it makes POTD difficulty much, much easier than it should be.

 

A toggle option in the menu would be nice (no leaving areas until cleared like scrotiemcb suggested).

 

For the record, this is not bothering my gameplay that much, it just makes POTD a bit too easy I think, but still I can't show the game any mercy, so I'll be resting VERY often.

Edited April 28, 2015 by luzarius

[scrotiemcb]

A lot of that can be fixed with signposting. For example, there is someone right outside Caed Nua who mentions that it's scary in there. Maybe add a little piece of dialogue which triggers based off party Health, advising maybe they should rest up first.

 

Now if players just skip all dialogue, I feel they deserve what they get.

[Captain Shrek]

A lot of that can be fixed with signposting. For example, there is someone right outside Caed Nua who mentions that it's scary in there. Maybe add a little piece of dialogue which triggers based off party Health, advising maybe they should rest up first.

 

Now if players just skip all dialogue, I feel they deserve what they get.

This is probably one of the best ways to create a good encounter design and mitigate metagaming. I have been advertising this approach since ages on beta forums: Just trigger quests based on dialogue comprehension. Let people decide for themselves by reading stuff where a quest is, how to solve it. That way metagaming only helps as far as replaying the entire game and not an encounter. 

 

When will people learn this...

 

DX did it amazingly well. So did the first witcher game a bit . Best ever was of course morrowind. 

[Tigranes]

 

"I insist on exploiting the system to make the game much easier for myself. Clearly, the solution is to make resting much harder for everybody, including people who struggle with lower difficulties. What? You mean maybe I shouldn't run back to the inn every ten minutes? That's just crazy talk! Oh, by the way, you guys all suck, this game is so easy."

 

Awwwwkay.

 

I actually would support more stringent resting limitations, but it's clear this would raise hell from many, many prospective players.

 

I see your point. But I've been doing no death, dead is dead, ironman, trial of iron rulesets for years. The first rule is to never limit yourself in any way, the game shows you no mercy during combat, so you have to do the same if you want to survive.   Exploiting bugs is not permitted, I never exploit bugs, but resting over & over for free is not a bug, it may be considered an exploit or an intended mechanic? I'm not sure. I was hoping to gain more info here on the forum.  It seems like free resting is a mechanic Obsidian agreed to allow players to use as they see fit, but it makes POTD difficulty much, much easier than it should be.

 

A toggle option in the menu would be nice (no leaving areas until cleared like scrotiemcb suggested).

 

For the record, this is not bothering my gameplay that much, it just makes POTD a bit too easy I think, but still I can't show the game any mercy, so I'll be resting VERY often.

 

 

If you have your own very personal set of house rules, fine. Deal with it. For most conventional modes of gameplay, there is no reason that spells should be per rest and not per encounter. 

 

If it makes POTD easy, then stop making it easy for yourself. Simple.

[luzarius]

 

 

"I insist on exploiting the system to make the game much easier for myself. Clearly, the solution is to make resting much harder for everybody, including people who struggle with lower difficulties. What? You mean maybe I shouldn't run back to the inn every ten minutes? That's just crazy talk! Oh, by the way, you guys all suck, this game is so easy."

 

Awwwwkay.

 

I actually would support more stringent resting limitations, but it's clear this would raise hell from many, many prospective players.

 

I see your point. But I've been doing no death, dead is dead, ironman, trial of iron rulesets for years. The first rule is to never limit yourself in any way, the game shows you no mercy during combat, so you have to do the same if you want to survive.   Exploiting bugs is not permitted, I never exploit bugs, but resting over & over for free is not a bug, it may be considered an exploit or an intended mechanic? I'm not sure. I was hoping to gain more info here on the forum.  It seems like free resting is a mechanic Obsidian agreed to allow players to use as they see fit, but it makes POTD difficulty much, much easier than it should be.

 

A toggle option in the menu would be nice (no leaving areas until cleared like scrotiemcb suggested).

 

For the record, this is not bothering my gameplay that much, it just makes POTD a bit too easy I think, but still I can't show the game any mercy, so I'll be resting VERY often.

 

 

If you have your own very personal set of house rules, fine. Deal with it. For most conventional modes of gameplay, there is no reason that spells should be per rest and not per encounter. 

 

If it makes POTD easy, then stop making it easy for yourself. Simple.

 

 

Hmm, I guess I can do that. I'll incorporate scrotiemcb's idea of not leaving an area to rest at the inn, until the area is clear.  

[scrotiemcb]

If you have your own very personal set of house rules, fine. Deal with it. For most conventional modes of gameplay, there is a very good reason why some abilities should be per rest and not per encounter. It provides variety.

 

If it makes you uneasy, then just rest before as many encounters as you can. Simple.

Edited April 28, 2015 by scrotiemcb

[nipsen]

 

Would it really change anything if all spells were switched to per combat encounter instead of per rest?

 

Or you mean, if the game was based around strategic use of situational powers to shift the battleflow, instead of being constantly about wearing down the hp of the enemies before your own hps run out?

 

Dear me, Iuzarius, only a "mentally unstable" person, and the guy who designed the first ruleset draft for PoE, would suggest such a thing, according to the forum-sages around here.