Unnecessary features

[Zwiebelchen]

 

 

Limiting camping supplies isn't enough to actually stop players from resting whenever they want. The game needs to limit camping supplies AND prevent players from leaving areas until quests/tasks are complete.

 

Some examples from act 1

 

* if you leave the temple of Eothas to rest at the inn, you return to find Raedric's guards sealing it back up. If you talk to them, it seems Wirtan has been slain.

* if you climb up the vines to gain access to the sanctuary in Raedric's Keep, then go back to Gilded Vale, you find on your return the vines have been cut, and you need to find another way in. Also, the high priest only grants you one rest - he's not that generous to allow another.

 

 

This would work best with optional quests, giving your party a chance to fail them if they retreat. However, that's fine; properly limiting camping for the main storyline isn't vital, so long as the system has a place to shine.

 

I like this idea. It would be cool to have some quests in the game that you can actually fail by leaving the dungeon before finishing. I also liked the examples a lot.

 

 

I hate this idea. To me it just seems like arbitrarily limited my experience and playstyle to fit some pre-determined idea of how I "should" play. I don't abuse rest--but sometimes I get bored and want to go do something else for a while. I should have that freedom.

 

 

Obviously, that shouldn't be the case for all dungeons or quests. But for some, like the Raedric's Hold quest, it actually makes a lot of sense.

 

BG2 had time-critical quests, but almost all those quests were only time-critical if you had the NPCs related to the quest with you, f.ex. Korgan leaving if you don't do his quest or Nalia going for the De'Arnise keep alone if you refuse to travel there soon.

 

Other than that, it barely matters and that's a shame.

I always thought it would have been a cool thing if you could encounter Nalia's mother dead if you took too long or the total opposite: that it was possible to actually save her father if you were fast enough.

I think this is a missed opportunity.

 

A certain amount of "urgency" makes sense in several quests in PoE.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[Katarack21]

 

 

 

Limiting camping supplies isn't enough to actually stop players from resting whenever they want. The game needs to limit camping supplies AND prevent players from leaving areas until quests/tasks are complete.

 

Some examples from act 1

 

* if you leave the temple of Eothas to rest at the inn, you return to find Raedric's guards sealing it back up. If you talk to them, it seems Wirtan has been slain.

* if you climb up the vines to gain access to the sanctuary in Raedric's Keep, then go back to Gilded Vale, you find on your return the vines have been cut, and you need to find another way in. Also, the high priest only grants you one rest - he's not that generous to allow another.

 

 

This would work best with optional quests, giving your party a chance to fail them if they retreat. However, that's fine; properly limiting camping for the main storyline isn't vital, so long as the system has a place to shine.

 

I like this idea. It would be cool to have some quests in the game that you can actually fail by leaving the dungeon before finishing. I also liked the examples a lot.

 

 

I hate this idea. To me it just seems like arbitrarily limited my experience and playstyle to fit some pre-determined idea of how I "should" play. I don't abuse rest--but sometimes I get bored and want to go do something else for a while. I should have that freedom.

 

 

Obviously, that shouldn't be the case for all dungeons or quests. But for some, like the Raedric's Hold quest, it actually makes a lot of sense.

 

BG2 had time-critical quests, but almost all those quests were only time-critical if you had the NPCs related to the quest with you, f.ex. Korgan leaving if you don't do his quest or Nalia going for the De'Arnise keep alone if you refuse to travel there soon.

 

A certain amount of "urgency" makes sense in several quests in PoE.

 

To me that's a different thing; many of the companions in various games I can think of would go off if you didn't eventually get around to doing their quests. That's frustrating sometimes, but makes sense with the characters. And while I find quests with time limits frustrating, I can understand the reasoning and if I have the option simply avoid them rather then complain.  What he's talking about is literally just arbitrarily limiting my characters movements and forcing me to completely clear an entire map--possibly multiple maps like in the Temple--and dictating what I'm allowed to do so that my gameplay fits into the style that he feels is best.

 

Sometimes I may be under level and want to come back later. Sometimes I'm just going to get the unique dialogue from a companion, then head out to switch companions to somebody more effective and come back. Sometimes I'm literally just bored and want to go see something else, because I've been in this dungeon for four hours and it's starting to get a little tedious. There's a lot of reasons I may want to leave a map before it's cleared, and I almost always come back and finish it up later.

 

Heck, I went in to the Temple of Eothas, looked around a bit, left, and cleared it in *Act III* when I remembered it was still a thing.

[scrotiemcb]

 

 

 

Limiting camping supplies isn't enough to actually stop players from resting whenever they want. The game needs to limit camping supplies AND prevent players from leaving areas until quests/tasks are complete.

Some examples from act 1

 

* if you leave the temple of Eothas to rest at the inn, you return to find Raedric's guards sealing it back up. If you talk to them, it seems Wirtan has been slain.

* if you climb up the vines to gain access to the sanctuary in Raedric's Keep, then go back to Gilded Vale, you find on your return the vines have been cut, and you need to find another way in. Also, the high priest only grants you one rest - he's not that generous to allow another.

 

This would work best with optional quests, giving your party a chance to fail them if they retreat. However, that's fine; properly limiting camping for the main storyline isn't vital, so long as the system has a place to shine.

 

I like this idea. It would be cool to have some quests in the game that you can actually fail by leaving the dungeon before finishing. I also liked the examples a lot.

I hate this idea. To me it just seems like arbitrarily limited my experience and playstyle to fit some pre-determined idea of how I "should" play. I don't abuse rest--but sometimes I get bored and want to go do something else for a while. I should have that freedom.

It would also punish players who try a quest that's too difficult for them at their current level, and come back later. But that's what we want, right? To punish people for exploring without a strategy guide. Damn those casuals.

It's actually something we don't want. I mentioned signposting earlier for this reason; the game should give you some form of warning beforehand. However, if this is still too much, you could adjust things so "commitment" isn't immediate, but after the waters have been tested a bit.

 

Modified Act 1 examples:

 

* instead of having the temple close up whenever the player leaves, have it close if the player leaves after completing the bell puzzle

* instead of having the vines cut wherever the player leaves, have them cut if the player leaves after taking to any of the major NPCs in the castle

* instead of having the very first gate close behind the players at Caed Nua, have the doors of the Main Keep close behind them

 

The issue is that players who heavily metagame would know where it is safe or not to return to the inn, so it would be a weaker enforcement. Still, some enforcement is better than zero.

 

Edit: or better yet, an autosave system which actually works well. Wouldn't need to water things down at all if the game autosave when you rest in a bed and didn't overwrite until the next time you did so.

Edited April 29, 2015 by scrotiemcb

[Aotrs Commander]

Edit: or better yet, an autosave system which actually works well. Wouldn't need to water things down at all if the game autosave when you rest in a bed and didn't overwrite until the next time you did so.

 

 

As a difficulty setting - MAYBE. But as a general rule - heck no. Save often, in as many slots as possible. In fact, MORE autosave slots would perhaps not be a bad idea.

 

I also really don't like the idea of being forced - as a matter of course, the odd time, signposted as you say would be fine - of being unable to leave a dungeon for some fairly arbitartay reason. You could all too easily go into a dungeon, just about manage to get past the first couple of fights, and then find one you can't win at that time and bascially have to go back to an much earlier save.

 

Trying to force resting restrictions is no better than having them too lax - and generally, it's better to let people decide how they want to play the game than to say "you HAVE to play this way.". (The problem is the when people choose to play a certain way and then complain about how the game is not specifically set up for them to play that way excluisvely - a sadly prevalent thing even outside gaming.) The other problem is, of course, getting people to understand that not everyone should feel obligated to play on the hardest setting or get their gamer-card revoked or something (coming from a guy who rarely EVER plays above the normal or easy mode on ANY game, just so as we're clear I'm not suggesting "some people are newbs that can't play as well as I can" or something) and that playing on a difficulty level that is not the top one does not constitute some sort of terrible sin..!

 

(I wonder if having a more granular difficulty system might ease that somewhat, if very carefully titled to avoid easy/normal/hard/above hard or something. Or perhaps just more individual toggles. Of course, a few people will no doubt switch them all anyway on principle, regardless of their skill, and then try to play using the most basic gameplay options and then complain the game is too hard, but you just can't help those people...!)

[Katarack21]

Games, of all sorts, regardless of type require certain skills and capabilities. Some people will be better or worse at it as a natural factor of human variability. You play at whatever difficulty setting makes it fun *for you*. I've never understood why this a cause for belittlement.

[Cronstintein]

It would also punish players who try a quest that's too difficult for them at their current level, and come back later. But that's what we want, right? To punish people for exploring without a strategy guide. Damn those casuals.

 

 

That's a good point.  Though the only place I see this in PoE is the temple and maaaaaybe Radrick's.  After that, I was overpowered every place I went.

[TT1]

 

Things you find in deepest dungeon should matter. Sword pieces you collect from 15 levels of fighting should be epic! Same goes for stuff you buy for XXXXX gold from merchants. 

 

Not only that but you can craft one of the first weapons (Estoc) you get in the game and make it better than the epic item you get forged from the 15 level mega-dungeon. 

 

Here's two screen shots I just did with the weapon you pick up near the start of the game and after it's crafted. The game even says it's worth more than the forged weapon from the mega-dungeon. (credit goes to fellipepe from the Codex for picking up on this).

 

So the game allows you to craft an epic item that you can get at the beginning of the game that's better than having to fight your way through the mega-dungeon.

 

 

 

Estoc not enchanted

 

 

Estoc enchanted and the game is saying it's worth more than the Blade of the Endless Paths

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is just unacceptable. Cmon, guys, fix this.

[Hassat Hunter]

Talking about time limits I recently started playing DX:HR again.

 

Yeah, you guessed it.

 

Also bad memories of Alpha Protocol and Deadfall Adventurer's where you get the choice between left and right. No clue what's main and not. And of course the path closes behind you *and* it auto-saves so you can't go back.

 

Yeah, those were DEFINITELY the moments I loved the game most rather than cursing it and if it and wanting to punch whatever gameplay developer thought this was infact a *good idea*...

[anameforobsidian]

The enchantments use less space, but they're clearly superior.

 

Superb - you only get to craft that once with parts that come from a late-game boss, so its a bit of a misnomer to treat it like a common crafted weapon.  Having a weapon with superb already on it means your party gets two superb weapons.

Speed - A 20% boost to damage and interruptions is more valuable than a blade that gives you a 25% damage bonus against a specialized enemies.  The applicability of the bonus matters; that's why a sword +1/+4 vs werewolves is worth less than a battleaxe +2 in BG.

Marking - Giving your allies a higher chance to hit and crit is a weak enchantment?  BG had many spells designed to do just that, and casting them had a significant opportunity cost.  This is basically a sword that casts doom for free every time it attacks.  That's a really powerful weapon.

[Cronstintein]

Talking about time limits I recently started playing DX:HR again.

 

Hey, me too!  I think hearing about the new one in the gaming press got me hankering to play it.  Can't say it's aged all that well.  I really feel like the controls are a little clunky.  And I'm one of the grognards that wished they had kept it all in 1st person without the cover mechanics and battery-powered takedowns.  Cool conversation battles though.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Cronstintein

[Crucis]

The enchantments use less space, but they're clearly superior.

 

Superb - you only get to craft that once with parts that come from a late-game boss, so its a bit of a misnomer to treat it like a common crafted weapon.  Having a weapon with superb already on it means your party gets two superb weapons.

Speed - A 20% boost to damage and interruptions is more valuable than a blade that gives you a 25% damage bonus against a specialized enemies.  The applicability of the bonus matters; that's why a sword +1/+4 vs werewolves is worth less than a battleaxe +2 in BG.

Marking - Giving your allies a higher chance to hit and crit is a weak enchantment?  BG had many spells designed to do just that, and casting them had a significant opportunity cost.  This is basically a sword that casts doom for free every time it attacks.  That's a really powerful weapon.

 

Generally I agree about comparing the Endless Paths estoc vs the "Fine Estoc" that was fully tricked out.  However, I have some caveats.

 

First, since both swords have a Superb enchantment, that cancels out.  Secondly, while the bonus vs Kith is a "vs specific enemies" bonus, it is against a very large and common group, i.e. Kith (which is also why it's worth 4 enchantment points rather than only 2).  And secondly, the +25% corrode damage is a 100% of the time thing.

 

OTOH, I'm not sure how valuable the Speed enchantment really is in this game.  A x1.2 speed equivalent should mean that you get 6 attacks in the time that you previously did 5 attacks, which isn't exactly all that amazing.  IMO, it seems to me that for a Speed enchantment to be really good, it'd need to be closer to a 1.5 multiple, so that you'd be getting 3 attacks in the time you previously did 2 attacks.  Right now, I'm not even sure that a x1.2 speed bonus is enough to turn a Slow weapon into an Average speed weapon (for example).

 

I will agree that Marking should be an excellent weapon enchantment, if it works.  I don't know that it does.  I suppose that I should check the math on succeeding attacks on the same target by allies to see if it is being applied.  *IF* it does work and is being applied, Marking should be one of the better enchantments out there, as long as you make certain to have allies attack the marked target, of course.  Another question might be ... how long does the "marking" linger? I don't know, and PoE doesn't say.

[Althernai]

I think the Blade of the Endless Paths comes out somewhat better against a vanilla Estoc that you fill up with enchantments. However, it's not so clear when you compare it to other "unique" stuff. For example, there is an Estoc called the White Spire which you can buy in Act II. It has Disorienting (-5 to all Defenses for 5 seconds which is less than the +10 Accuracy boost of the Blade, but affects more sources including the Estoc wielder and spell casters) and Blizzard. If you enchant that with either Superb or Exceptional and a Lash, it should be reasonably close.

 

The Blade is not a bad weapon. The margin by which it wins may be small, but it's still arguably the best Estoc in the game and you don't need to waste crafting components on it. However, if you were expecting Carsomyr or Celestial Fury, you'll be disappointed. Items like that simply aren't in PoE and what few so much as aspired to that status will be nerfed in Patch 1.05.

[Cronstintein]

OTOH, I'm not sure how valuable the Speed enchantment really is in this game.  A x1.2 speed equivalent should mean that you get 6 attacks in the time that you previously did 5 attacks, which isn't exactly all that amazing.  IMO, it seems to me that for a Speed enchantment to be really good, it'd need to be closer to a 1.5 multiple, so that you'd be getting 3 attacks in the time you previously did 2 attacks.  Right now, I'm not even sure that a x1.2 speed bonus is enough to turn a Slow weapon into an Average speed weapon (for example).

 

Also worth mentioning that the 1.2x speed enhancements weren't actually doing anything last time I checked.  If you're equipping these items you might want to do a little test run and see if they fixed that (I haven't seen it mentioned in any patch notes).

[TT1]

The Blade is not a bad weapon. The margin by which it wins may be small, but it's still arguably the best Estoc in the game and you don't need to waste crafting components on it. However, if you were expecting Carsomyr or Celestial Fury, you'll be disappointed. Items like that simply aren't in PoE and what few so much as aspired to that status will be nerfed in Patch 1.05.

If you have to battle through FIFTEEN levels of dungeons, collecting different parts of a weapon, then to travel and reforge ... is better than that weapon is an epic weapon. But not only it is not, it is a weapon worse than any of you can forge. And this does not make any sense.

Edited May 3, 2015 by TT1

[kaiki]

 

The Blade is not a bad weapon. The margin by which it wins may be small, but it's still arguably the best Estoc in the game and you don't need to waste crafting components on it. However, if you were expecting Carsomyr or Celestial Fury, you'll be disappointed. Items like that simply aren't in PoE and what few so much as aspired to that status will be nerfed in Patch 1.05.

If you have to battle through FIFTEEN levels of dungeons, collecting different parts of a gun, then to travel and reforge ... is better than that weapon is an epic weapon. But not only it is not, it is a weapon worse than any of you can forge. And this does not make any sense.

 

 

There are 2 big reasons why The Blade is far superior to vanilla Estoc posted.

 

1) It comes as Superb, so you don't need to kill the Adra Dragon in order to get the accuracy and damage bonus. As it comes as Superb that means you can make another piece of gear Superb instead, if you kill Adra Dragon.

 

2) Marking is a great ability for higher difficulty runs. Accuracy is harder to buff then damage so an ability that helps your party get those hits acts like a damage buff for 5 other characters rather then just a damage buff for 1.

 

I'd also like to point out you don't need to run through all 15 levels of the dungeon in order to get The Blade. You acquire the parts needed to reforge The Blade rather naturally as you progress through the levels of the dungeon so it's not the burden you think it is.