The 'Truth' behind words in RPG Codex's #1 Review for PoE

[constantine]

To clarify things, Darth Roxor's essay about PoE cannot be considered a 'review', despite the author names it such, if only for the staggering amount of spoilers it contains. A reader has to avoid/skip sentences or be spoiled of the acts of the main quest, certain sidequests and encounters of the game.

 

 

Now to the essay itself. The long, tiring to read block of text boils down to this:

 

'I wanted a crpg with Baldur's Gate's (..BG2, IWD1,2) mechanics.'

 

 

A.The author claims PoE's character development (talents, abilities) offers blunt, unmeaningful choices. An accuracy bonus of +10 in PoE equals to +2 in the old games, which is considerable. He chooces to lie in our faces about that game department b/c...

He wanted BG mechanics.

 

B.The author thinks Attributes in PoE do not offer considerable bonuses, then proposes to the reader min-maxing attribute options for various character combat roles, in essence contradicting himself, while proposing a certain power-gaming playstyle in a review.

 

It is true that Attributes in PoE have lesser impact, which is in fact an achievement. That way one player's Aloth with his 'crap stats' wouldn't fall that much behind a min-maxed wizard another player hired. At the same time, a player who loves min-maxed attributes will get something out of them. It's the best of both worlds.

 

Also, attributes offer various choices: dmg builds, duration, interrupt, fast-attacking, tanking builds that the player is encouraged to explore as there is not a godly attr. for any of the classes, but the author again chooses to lie in our faces about it b/c...

He wanted BG mechanics.

 

 

C.The author claims encounters in PoE are uninterested, easily exploited and fall into MMO-like resolutions. Those statements are not entirely false, but the typical player, who doesn't specifically look to cheat the game, *will* have a vastly different experience.

 

And since the author judges PoE from the old games perspective, it is another insult to the reader's face to choose to ignore how broken, unbalanced and full of exploits combat was in those games. No need to detail here, those issues are known for years. Mind you, I still love and play the old games, but I intentionally hamper myself to enjoy challenge in combat.

 

However, the author again chooses to lie in our faces b/c...

He wanted BG mechanics.

 

 

D.The author is not satisfied with role-playing elements in dialogue choices, PoE's reputation system and world reactivity to player's action.

 

Again, judging the game from the perspective of the old games, he continues to blatantly lie. The old games (save PS:T) had zero reactivity and only an illusion of rp, most of the part occuring in the player's head, since the actual games (almost) never delivered. Mind you, I love the old games, but one has to give credit where is due (unlike the RPG Codex's 'reviewer'). PoE is tons more rpg than the old legendary ie rpgs.

 

But Darth Roxor again ignores that fact b/c he is so butt-hurt he didn't get his realible BG mechanics.

 

 

E.Then there are some parts about the 'review' that are plainly mean. Darth Roxor must really hate some Obsidian people to throw so much vile. He is unfair about the quality of writing, quest content and resolution and the thematics of the main quest. But I can guess he acts so b/c...

He wanted BG mechanics.

 

 

I personally have every right to express my opinion since RPGCodex's post was forwarded to these forums, so, in conclusion, reading Darth Roxor's post about PoE I have this to say: where are great things, petty acts will try to undermine them.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

C.The author claims encounters in PoE are uninterested, easily exploited and fall into MMO-like resolutions. Those statements are not entirely false, but the typical player, who doesn't specifically look to cheat the game, *will* have a vastly different experience.

 

And since the author judges PoE from the old games perspective, it is another insult to the reader's face to choose to ignore how broken, unbalanced and full of exploits combat was in those games. No need to detail here, those issues are known for years. Mind you, I still love and play the old games, but I intentionally hamper myself to enjoy challenge in combat.

 

 

Yeah this.

 

Compared to BG1, PoE's combat at lvl 1-3 is amazing.

[View619]

Why create another thread for this review? Why is a random forum poster's review so important to you? Will this happen for every Codex-based review that isn't positive?

Edited April 26, 2015 by View619

[constantine]

Why create another thread for this review? Why is a random forum poster's review so important to you? Will this happen for every Codex-based review that isn't positive?

I had to, or else my words would end up buried in 45something pages of poster vs poster arguments.

 

And there isn't a matter of importance, rather than every man stating their views and be criticised for them.

[View619]

 

Why create another thread for this review? Why is a random forum poster's review so important to you? Will this happen for every Codex-based review that isn't positive?

I had to, or else my words would end up buried in 45something pages of poster vs poster arguments.

 

And there isn't a matter of importance, rather than every man stating their views and be criticised for them.

 

 

So, when somebody wants to add to an on-going discussion, they should create a new thread? That makes sense.

[constantine]

Yes, makes enough sense to me. Is there a forum rule against it ?

 

What is important to me is that people who haven't played the game yet and stumble into the RPGCodec Review #1 topic, can later check that one-

 

the truth about it.

[Nonek]

Well if one wishes to know the real story about Mr Roxor's review it's quite simple, the gentleman is a leading proctologist and seller of anal soothing products. Since releasing his review, sales of his creams and ointments have gone up by almost 75%, one can't help but appreciate such cunning.

[View619]

Well if one wishes to know the real story about Mr Roxor's review it's quite simple, the gentleman is a leading proctologist and seller of anal soothing products. Since releasing his review, sales of his creams and ointments have gone up by almost 75%, one can't help but appreciate such cunning.

 

It looks like I'm in the wrong line of work! One review and immediate profit, time to learn from the industry leaders! 

 

Yes, makes enough sense to me. Is there a forum rule against it ?

 

What is important to me is that people who haven't played the game yet and stumble into the RPGCodec Review #1 topic, can later check that one-

 

the truth about it.

 

I'm sure people who haven't played the game are:

 

1. Reading multiple reviews and seeing a combination of positives and negatives, like any game.
2. Are able to form their own opinion regarding whether the game is good or bad.
3. Unless they are from the Codex, have no idea who Roxxor (spelling) even is.

 

Honestly, it sounds like you're afraid that this review will negatively impact sales or something. It's not important, just move along.

I have to give props to that review writer though, he has a 40+ page thread of complaints and even made individuals go out of their way to make new threads in response. Forum manipulation at it's finest.

 

I wonder what will happen when further negative reviews come out. Anyway feel free to continue feeding him, I'm sure others will follow soon.

Edited April 26, 2015 by View619

[constantine]

It's not sales that concerns me. I find the supposed review too provocative to ignore. But then, that is what it was intended to do in the first place.

 

In the end, one angry rant of a review will not change the tide.

[Tigranes]

Normally we'd close duplicate threads, but we just closed the main one (the forum has a weird quirk and starts to go crazy when threads get too long). So let's make this one Part Two.

[Volourn]

Wow. The Obsidian fanboys are REALLY butthurt over the Codex. It's one review guys, get over it, and enjoy the game. LMAO

[constantine]

The guy who posted it had every right to express himself and make his complaints known. I, in return, have every to apply my critique on his thesis.

 

I have no butthurt and I m very much enjoying the game every time I have the time

 

I can understand you LYAO, since there's not much else to do, like counter-argue the argument I make in the topics I disagree with the reviewer.

Edited April 27, 2015 by constantine

[Luckmann]

To clarify things, Darth Roxor's essay about PoE cannot be considered a 'review', despite the author names it such, if only for the staggering amount of spoilers it contains. A reader has to avoid/skip sentences or be spoiled of the acts of the main quest, certain sidequests and encounters of the game.

To clarify things, Constantine's essay about Darth Roxor's review cannot be considered a 'thread', despite the author names it such, if only for the staggering amount of poop it contains. A reader has to avoid/skip sentences or become actively dumber in regards to pillars and eternity, certain this and thats or whatevers.

 

See how silly it looks?

 

dictionary.reference.com/browse/review

 

B.The author thinks Attributes in PoE do not offer considerable bonuses, then proposes to the reader min-maxing attribute options for various character combat roles, in essence contradicting himself, while proposing a certain power-gaming playstyle in a review.

This is true - the Attributes in PoE does not offer considerable bonuses. I do not mind, but it's true. It is also very true that the Attribute Bonuses is a lopsided mess that heavily favours specialization according to type. This is not a contradiction, this is a well-known and well-established fact. There's countless threads that examine it in detail. Trying to brush it off does in no way help the game.

 

C.The author claims encounters in PoE are uninterested, easily exploited and fall into MMO-like resolutions. Those statements are not entirely false, but the typical player, who doesn't specifically look to cheat the game, *will* have a vastly different experience.

This is also true, and it has nothing to do with "look[ing] to cheat the game". You have to be functionally retarded to not "cheat" in this manner. The game, due to several factors involving disparate but interconnected mechanics (such as the Armour Dichotomy, the Lopsided Attribute Bonuses, and the War on Movement) divides the game into a strong Tank/DPS dichotomy, and the combat becomes formulaic.

 

This is not exploiting the game or looking to cheat. You have to deliberately make bad, counter-intuitive decisions in the game in order to not have it down to a science by the end of Act 1, and actively work against yourself, such as running headlong into battle, place your ranged combatants at the front, not use knockdown, take nothing but Utility Talents.

 

If you have an IQ north of 80. To think that "the typical player" would not be able to figure this out by themselves is deeply patronizing and insulting, like an adult handing a child a controller that is not plugged in. And I say this as a man that is consistently and constantly patronizing and insulting, and genuinely believe that the vast majority of people aren't fit to tie their own shoes, let alone vote or breathe automatically.

 

By the way, you are now breathing manually.

 

D.The author is not satisfied with role-playing elements in dialogue choices, PoE's reputation system and world reactivity to player's action.

 

Again, judging the game from the perspective of the old games, he continues to blatantly lie. The old games (save PS:T) had zero reactivity and only an illusion of rp, most of the part occuring in the player's head, since the actual games (almost) never delivered. Mind you, I love the old games, but one has to give credit where is due (unlike the RPG Codex's 'reviewer'). PoE is tons more rpg than the old legendary ie rpgs.

 

Well now you're just trolling. But either way, irrelevant; I'm also unsatisfied with the dialogue choices (enjoy the enforced modernist morality w/ Lord Haron), the unfulfilling reputation system (why have negative reputation and more importantly, how?), and world reactivity both in regards to character (it's random, inconsistent and.. rubbish, in many cases, really - play a Human Priest(ess) of Eothas to examplify; compare to Orlan Cipher) and to player action (with some very notable exceptions).

 

Again, examined and extensively covered in threads on this very forum.

 

This has nothing to do with "old games".

 

E.Then there are some parts about the 'review' that are plainly mean. Darth Roxor must really hate some Obsidian people to throw so much vile. He is unfair about the quality of writing, quest content and resolution and the thematics of the main quest. But I can guess he acts so b/c...

Hurr durr durf durf hurr hurr hurrr durrr.

 

Yes, the review is trash and overly hostile, and some of the arguments used are flawed, but it doesn't change the fact that many of the conclusions are correct. We don't have to like it to agree with it. Disagreeing with it on the basis that it's s**t and full of bile would essentially be argumentum ad hominem.

 

 

 

Normally we'd close duplicate threads, but we just closed the main one (the forum has a weird quirk and starts to go crazy when threads get too long). So let's make this one Part Two.

I object, based on the fact that the thread basically is just another example of someone believe their post deserves a new thread unlike everyone else's. This thread should've been locked as a duplicate thread and then a general thread created that isn't driven by someone's enormous ego and mountainous butthurt.

 

[...]

 

Compared to BG1, PoE's combat at lvl 1-3 is amazing.

I'm willing to agree with this.

 

It then rushes to level 11 in Act 2 and becomes worse than Throne of Bhaal, only to leave you hanging at level 12 for the remainder of the game. But the very-earliest gameplay is certainly the best.

 

 

4-5-manning the Temple of Eothas at level 3 was fun the first time I did it, and the prologue is great.

 

Edited April 27, 2015 by Luckmann

[scrotiemcb]

OP logic...

1. Roxor said something was wrong with PoE.

2. However, that same wrongness was also present in BG.

3. Therefore, Roxor wants PoE to be just another BG clone.

 

I like what you did with point #3. Most people would have concluded the post opposite.

[constantine]

When have you people stopped offering constructive criticism for the betterment of PoE and turned to exaggeration ?

 

Was it after @Sensuki said the game is 'flawed by design' ?

 

Please..

[Yellow Rabbit]

Gonna side with Volourn on this one (imagine my horror... )

 

Everything that could be said about Roxor's review from every viewpoint possible was said in that 40+ pages monster thread. Isn't that enough?

 

Though, if you intended to provoke another round of air kicking about PoE's mechanics/attributes/rp qualitiues/whatever with the same people bringing in the same arguments, why not say it in the title?

 

Edit: typos

Edited April 27, 2015 by Yellow Rabbit

[Luckmann]

When have you people stopped offering constructive criticism for the betterment of PoE and turned to exaggeration ?

 

Was it after @Sensuki said the game is 'flawed by design' ?

 

Please..

 

Constructive criticism? Are you really one to take those words into your mouth? Honestly?

[bronzepoem]

So the author is a great fan of Bioware？

For me，BG2 is a 7/10 game，not as good as PST and Fallout2.

People's taste are really different.

[scrotiemcb]

When have you people stopped offering constructive criticism for the betterment of PoE and turned to exaggeration ?

 

Generally speaking, I don't offer constructive criticism in earnest until I'm pretty convinced things are pretty broken.

 

The gameplay of PoE is pretty darn broken.

 

Therefore, you can find me in other threads offering suggestions to unbreak it.

[constantine]

 

When have you people stopped offering constructive criticism for the betterment of PoE and turned to exaggeration ?

 

Was it after @Sensuki said the game is 'flawed by design' ?

 

Please..

 

Constructive criticism? Are you really one to take those words into your mouth? Honestly?

 

 

 

-Attributes in PoE

 

There may well be the game's greatest achievement. Lesser impact, but it is there. Open to let the player try out character builds. *You* people helped for them being what they are now, at a time when you were still caring to contribute to the game.

 

 

-Encounters

 

They *are* falling short- we knew it beforehand. Obsidian told us there is no time to properly develop challenging AI. Encounters are prone to exploitation, *especially* when people are looking for weaknesses to the system. If one plays like normal people do he won't experience the whole lot of it.

 

 

-Engagement and Mv in Combat

 

 

Engagement is too punishing and should be toned down. We've been saying this throughout development. Our voices may be heard sometime. Still, better have harsh engagement than free mv in combat. You all know where *that* ship is sailing.

 

 

But it seems you've all grown past caring for improving this game, more likely ever since @Sensuki stated that it was 'flawed by design' and unfixable.

 

 

 

At least @Sensuki did one last good thing for me before leaving. I've been playing his dps Fighter disabling build and I've been enjoying it lots.

 

 

 

*edit: there is also the matter of lack of immunities for enemies, which I too would like to see them return

Edited April 27, 2015 by constantine

[Ink Blot]

Oh, the irony...

[Volourn]

"Compared to BG1, PoE's combat at lvl 1-3 is amazing."

 

How is that even possible? You get level 3 before even reaching the Vale which is maybe 1-2 hours of play time max.. L0L

\\

Certainly not better than BG's. Just easier.

 

 

 

"The guy who posted it had every right to express himself and make his complaints known. I, in return, have every to apply my critique on his thesis."

 

Sure. But,  why a whole new thread? Why so long afterweards? Why not voice your opinion  at the review site so he can read it and youc an discuss it with him?

 

"

I have no butthurt and I m very much enjoying the game every time I have the time "

 

You can enjoy the game and be butthurt at same time. He doesn't like a game you like. Not a big deal.

"I can understand you LYAO, since there's not much else to do, like counter-argue the argument I make in the topics I disagree with the reviewer."

 

What kind of argument? I think PE has lots of flaws but I enjoy the game anyways. *shrug* I disagree  and agree with both of you. OMG! NEUTRAL ALERT!!!

Edited April 27, 2015 by Volourn

[Cronstintein]

I'm not sure why you put such mythical significance on one statement from Sensuki, it certainly didn't penetrate my conciousness. 

 

For you to handwave bad AI as "we ran out of time" is garbage.  80%+ of the time spent in this game is combat, if it's unfinished that's a BIG FREAKING PROBLEM.  And we're not talking about a 'hole' in the AI that can be exploited.  The AI is basically non-existant other than "Attaaaaaaaack!" 

 

BG2 is old, and by no means a perfect game, but playing PoE just made me want to go back and play that instead.  A multitude of more interesting npc companions, powerful items, and challenging combat makes a huge difference in a game like this.  For me, at least.

 

Now the things PoE did better:

+The Stash.  I really appreciated the de-emphasis of inventory fiddling.

+The text-based adventure things.  While I think they could have been better/deeper, it's a cool idea I would like to see built upon.

+Speed control.  Really like being able to slow down things in combat and run fast to get around.  (If anyone here starts BG2EE make sure and unlock console commands so you can teleport around on the map to get a similar experience.)

+Improved pathfinding.  Not perfect, but better than the old IE games by a large margin (although this was recently improved with a patch).

+Art.  An improvement is to be expected, but I find it rather fetching.

 

But compared to the negatives...

-Less depth in combat (no immunities.  DRs can be ignored for the most part)

-Less powerful/interesting itemization.

-Less powerful/interesting spells.

-Weak AI.

-Encounter design is uninspired.

-Stronghold being a waste of time/money.  Debateable, I suppose, but I was left unimpressed.  And Raxxor's complaints about the loading screens to get to your inn really make me wonder if anyone playtested that even once, it was super obvious.  There should have been a link outside the building that would let you get directly to sleep.  Instead we get Load Floor 1.  Load floor 2.  Sleep.  Load floor 1. Load outside.  That's freaking mental and hardly worth the +1 to sneak or whatever. (edit: Also the abilities don't stack!? WTF!?  Spending thousands of gold to get worse bonuses than those you can get at any other inn... SMH)

 

 

 

So in conclusion it really depends on the player.  If tactical combat isn't really your jam, PoE might be an improvement.  It certainly looks and plays better with some quality of life improvements over the original IE games.  But if you're looking for something with meat on the bone for seriously large amounts of playtime... I think you're better off with the classics.

To be fair, BG1 wasn't that great either.  It's difficult to build an engine and a game at the same time.  By the time the engine's done you don't have time to start a game from scratch so they're done concurrently which is hard on the pipeline.  Hopefully if there's a PoE2 it's a significant jump in quality the same way BG1->BG2. 

Edited April 27, 2015 by Cronstintein

[Ganrich]

To be fair, BG1 wasn't that great either.  It's difficult to build an engine and a game at the same time.  By the time the engine's done you don't have time to start a game from scratch so they're done concurrently which is hard on the pipeline.  Hopefully if there's a PoE2 it's a significant jump in quality the same way BG1->BG2.

 

Wanted to expand on this. I think a lot of people don't realize the strain of building out the engine. They used unity, but had to add a great deal. I point to another kickstarter game that suffered this very issue. Shadowrun Returns. Then they came out with Dragonfall. Which was much better. I expect PoE's expansions and possible sequel to be much better than this game.

[Luckmann]

-Attributes in PoE

 

There may well be the game's greatest achievement. Lesser impact, but it is there. Open to let the player try out character builds. *You* people helped for them being what they are now, at a time when you were still caring to contribute to the game.

What are you even talking about? "You people"? I still care about contributing to the game. I do bug reports, I keep raising issues, I keep bringing up stuff to discussion, I comb through it for things that should be improved. What do you do, except brush issues off, act passive-aggressive, and label people left, right and centre?

 

Saying that "we" helped create this is also wrong. I've been pointing out the very clear issues with the Attribute Bonuses since the current set first arrived, in BBv435, a build during which they couldn't even be tested properly, because Interrupt was broken and Dexterity worked in reverse! Then later BBv480 came, had kept the current bonuses, and then there was release.

 

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Not in relation to the mechanics, not in what constitutes constructive criticism, and not what "you people" are all about.

 

-Encounters

 

They *are* falling short- we knew it beforehand. Obsidian told us there is no time to properly develop challenging AI. Encounters are prone to exploitation, *especially* when people are looking for weaknesses to the system. If one plays like normal people do he won't experience the whole lot of it.

It's not the AI. We're not *looking* for weaknesses in the system in order to "exploit" them. You play the game, you develop tactics. These tactics are infantile and simplistic, because much of the system is infantile and simplistic. It is not a single issue; it is a group of mechanics that together work to create rote, banal gameplay. What exactly is supposed to be the "exploit" here? Wherein lies the "cheating"? Wherein lies the "looking for weaknesses to the system"?

 

Stop using these buzzwords to try to obfuscate the issues. They're real, and they should be discussed as real issues.

 

...but the AI could still use some work.

 

-Engagement and Mv in Combat

 

Engagement is too punishing and should be toned down. We've been saying this throughout development. Our voices may be heard sometime. Still, better have harsh engagement than free mv in combat. You all know where *that* ship is sailing.

 

No. Exactly where is that ship sailing? Free movement in combat isn't anything odd or strange. It's pretty damn basic. Now, I'm not saying that the game needs that, necessarily - not at all, I never have. As many will attest, I always lied the idea of the Engagement system, but in play, it has some serious issues, especially when taken together with all the other penalties to movement, both systemic (penalties to recovery for no reason) and fundamental (movement by itself has an opportunity cost to it).

 

But it seems you've all grown past caring for improving this game, more likely ever since @Sensuki stated that it was 'flawed by design' and unfixable.

 

There's no merit to this claim at all. It's ridiculous. There's a lot of people that are consistently critical of the game and come with constructive criticism throughout the entire forum that still evidently care about the game. Myself, Gkthellar, Stun, Monte Carlo, and several others. I have at least 10 bug/issue reports in the last two days alone. Where is your contribution?

 

This is nothing but non-constructive passive-aggressiveness on your part, a manchild that considered his own opinion so important that it was too good for the dedicated thread and needed it's own. If you actually participated in the conversations in a constructive manner, you'd know this to be true. But you're just a butthurt fanboy with no interest in actually discussing on a reasonable level, and it doesn't do anyone or anything any service - least of all the game.

 

At least @Sensuki did one last good thing for me before leaving. I've been playing his dps Fighter disabling build and I've been enjoying it lots.

 

I wonder if it could be because Sensuki has an in-depth knowledge of the game and it's mechanics and have been contributing positively to the development of the game, and it's a damn shame that Sawyer has his own head so far up his own ass that he wasn't listening.

 

The fact of the matter is that a lot of us still think that this is a relatively good game, but more importantly, that the game has the potential to be a fantastic game. That's where all the criticism stems from. That's why I still come with suggestions on how to improve even existing questlines. It's why we examine what went wrong with Defiance Bay. It is why we discuss the issues of the narrative either failing to motivate or rushing you with an ultimatum. It's why there's threads coming up with solutions to the armour dichotomy.

 

Because not only do we nourish a faint hope that these things will be addressed by Obsidian revisiting established content either in patches or expansions, but in examining them, we hope that it will be improved in sequels.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Luckmann