Bruce Jenner "comes out" as female...

[Bryy]

Milo Y. is just a douche. He has absolutely no morals except what will get him a book deal.

[Fighter]

It's a no-no because "fixing it" assumes there's something that is broken — that may or may not be the case. Let's first complete the research into how it works, then move on to research how it's supposed to work, and once we have adequate answers to those questions, we'll be in a position to judge if it needs repairing.

 

There is something broken by definition. Otherwise no treatment of any sort would be required. No feelings of being born in the wrong body would be involved to begin with.

[213374U]

There is something broken by definition. Otherwise no treatment of any sort would be required. No feelings of being born in the wrong body would be involved to begin with.

 

By what definition? How do you know that "treatment", in a medical sense, is required?

 

What I'm trying to say is, how do you know the problem lies with the person? Dysmorphia is a problem, no doubt, but it can only exist as a result of juxtaposition to social constructs (man/woman). Biological sex is determined by the chromosomes one is born with. So far, we cannot change that. Gender, not so much.

Edited April 26, 2015 by 213374U

[FaustianEchoes]

Are you simply quoting Milo Yiannopoulos?

 

I find it mind boggling how anyone can shoot him down when he makes perfect sense.

 

Transgender isn't about love or attraction, like heterosexuality and homosexuality are. It's about how one perceives themselves. Just because I perceive myself as a dragon, doesn't make me a dragon. It doesn't mean everyone should view me as a dragon when I'm biologically a human. It's a mental problem and instead of working harder to find the underlying cause, we lump it into the pile of equal rights. Would you take Otherkin seriously if they campaigned like trans people?

 

Social justice warriors have perversely twisted gender dysmorphia into an equal rights issue like homosexuality or race.

Edited April 26, 2015 by FaustianEchoes

[Fighter]

By what definition? How do you know that "treatment", in a medical sense, is required?

 

What I'm trying to say is, how do you know the problem lies with the person? Dysmorphia is a problem, no doubt, but it can only exist as a result of juxtaposition to social constructs (man/woman). Biological sex is determined by the chromosomes one is born with. So far, we cannot change that. Gender, not so much.

 

I do not believe in gender as a purely social construct.

[Orogun01]

 

Are you simply quoting Milo Yiannopoulos?

 

I find it mind boggling how anyone can shoot him down when he makes perfect sense.

 

Transgender isn't about love or attraction, like heterosexuality and homosexuality are. It's about how one perceives themselves. Just because I perceive myself as a dragon, doesn't make me a dragon. It doesn't mean everyone should view me as a dragon when I'm biologically a human. It's a mental problem and instead of working harder to find the underlying cause, we lump it into the pile of equal rights. Would you take Otherkin seriously if they campaigned like trans people?

 

Social justice warriors have perversely twisted gender dysmorphia into an equal rights issue like homosexuality or race.

 

There are cases of hermaphrodism where the child gender is chosen for them and they eventually transition because they feel they are the wrong gender (without an foreknowledge of their condition) these are rare though.

[213374U]

I do not believe in gender as a purely social construct.

 

What you believe is ultimately your business, provided you don't try to "fix" other people to conform to your beliefs. Because we do not yet fully understand the underlying mechanisms that give rise to identification with a given gender, (or any other given personality trait, for that matter) we simply cannot be certain that they need repairs simply because they show a behavior different from the majority of the sample. But that's exactly what we're doing — we tell these people, openly or tacitly, that they are wrong.

 

The dragon simile is pretty cool, so I'm totally going to steal it. Imagine that you are exactly as you are now, but every male around you identifies as a dragon. They go around flapping their arms and yelling all the time like imbeciles. And you either pretend that you are a dragon too (and mimic their idiotic antics) or are looked down on as a deviant, un-dragonly, a freak of nature, or a plain old attention-whore. But deep down, you identify as something else, only you don't know exactly what it is because everyone around you with whom you share a phenotypic differentiation identifies as a silly fictional giant flying lizard... fun, huh?

[Orogun01]

 

I do not believe in gender as a purely social construct.

 

What you believe is ultimately your business, provided you don't try to "fix" other people to conform to your beliefs. Because we do not yet fully understand the underlying mechanisms that give rise to identification with a given gender, (or any other given personality trait, for that matter) we simply cannot be certain that they need repairs simply because they show a behavior different from the majority of the sample. But that's exactly what we're doing — we tell these people, openly or tacitly, that they are wrong.

 

The dragon simile is pretty cool, so I'm totally going to steal it. Imagine that you are exactly as you are now, but every male around you identifies as a dragon. They go around flapping their arms and yelling all the time like imbeciles. And you either pretend that you are a dragon too (and mimic their idiotic antics) or are looked down on as a deviant, un-dragonly, a freak of nature, or a plain old attention-whore. But deep down, you identify as something else, only you don't know exactly what it is because everyone around you with whom you share a phenotypic differentiation identifies as a silly fictional giant flying lizard... fun, huh?

 

If the government recognizes otherkin can I own one of them? What about raising them as cattle or eating them?

If we kill them will it be manslaughter or animal abuse?

 

I see no reason why society should let clearly morose individuals dictate the norm, but as a macabre ghoulish person I think I would enjoy the kind of mockery that would rise from treating people who think they're animals like animals.

 

Now, let's ask those transgender about their pregnancies. 

[Volourn]

*shrug*

[Deadly_Nightshade]

 

By what definition? How do you know that "treatment", in a medical sense, is required?

 

What I'm trying to say is, how do you know the problem lies with the person? Dysmorphia is a problem, no doubt, but it can only exist as a result of juxtaposition to social constructs (man/woman). Biological sex is determined by the chromosomes one is born with. So far, we cannot change that. Gender, not so much.

 

I do not believe in gender as a purely social construct.

 

 

 

I don't have the time, or the energy, to get into a long discussion, but you're incorrect - there is, at a minimum, debate about equating biological sex and gender (this has predominantly happened within the sociological field, so if you're coming from a different background that could explain the disconnect). If you need a source, and there's plenty more where this comes from I just didn't feel like dragging out textbooks from boxes or doing a prolonged search of the internet this late at night, here's one that took all of three seconds to find:

 

http://www.med.monash.edu.au/gendermed/sexandgender.html

 

"Sex = male and female

 

Gender = masculine and feminine

 

So in essence:

 

Sex refers to biological differences; chromosomes, hormonal profiles, internal and external sex organs.

 

Gender describes the characteristics that a society or culture delineates as masculine or feminine."

 

But, whatever, it's your life and you're free to be completely wrong (although ignoring fact, that gender and biological sex are, in fact, not considered the same by a number of fields of study, in favor of an unsupported opinion, that they are the same thing, is not, in my opinion, the best course of action).

[pmp10]

Now, let's ask those transgender about their pregnancies. 

Arguing that technology is imperfect doesn't help your point.

Eventually we will get to a point when some sort of c-section birth will be possible for MtF transsexuals.

[Valsuelm]

Spades be spades.

 

Bruce Jenner is an attention seeking superficial lunatic with a twisted soul, to put it simply and nicely. That's what one could say before he decided to play girl.

 

Playing girl is just an extension of his lunacy. Not much to see here in regards to him specifically.

 

Sad perhaps it may be, but it is what it is, and not to be helped by anyone here.

 

If there's a worthwhile story here, it's that on the march towards the New Dark Age insanity is lauded, promoted, and considered healthy and normal, rather than recognized for what it is. That's a deeper philosophical discussion than may be feasible to be reasonably had on this forum (and most other internet forums) however. We are indeed now long upon that dark road.

[FaustianEchoes]

Spades be spades.

 

Bruce Jenner is an attention seeking superficial lunatic with a twisted soul, to put it simply and nicely. That's what one could say before he decided to play girl.

 

Playing girl is just an extension of his lunacy. Not much to see here in regards to him specifically.

 

Sad perhaps it may be, but it is what it is, and not to be helped by anyone here.

 

If there's a worthwhile story here, it's that on the march towards the New Dark Age insanity is lauded, promoted, and considered healthy and normal, rather than recognized for what it is. That's a deeper philosophical discussion than may be feasible to be reasonably had on this forum (and most other internet forums) however. We are indeed now long upon that dark road.

 

Careful, that's an awfully reasonable way of looking at it.

[213374U]

If the government recognizes otherkin can I own one of them? What about raising them as cattle or eating them?

If we kill them will it be manslaughter or animal abuse?

 

I see no reason why society should let clearly morose individuals dictate the norm, but as a macabre ghoulish person I think I would enjoy the kind of mockery that would rise from treating people who think they're animals like animals.

 

Now, let's ask those transgender about their pregnancies.

 

I know you are joking, but considering that we can trace a direct line between the current government and the one that allowed human ownership based on deeply held beliefs that some phenotypes made certain human beings "clearly" inferior and possibly even barely human... I'm not sure you want to go there.

 

Besides, directly owning other people and killing them yourself? Why would you even want to do that? Much more cost-effective and hassle-free to have them take care of themselves while keeping them in a sort of perpetual servitude facilitated by controlling wages. And if they need killing at some point, please leave it to professionals.

 

As for morose people dictating norms, I agree. But I also don't want you dictating them, or anyone else for that matter. Nothing personal. In this context, I wonder what the practical utility of "norms" even is.

 

And if you want to ask trannies about their pregnancies, I have a feeling the answer is going to be along the lines of

 

[Picture removed due to circumventing language filter. Picture was Jesse Pinkman from Breaking Bad going "Yeah, Science ****!"]

 

...because they didn't cover that in "the talk". I know my folks didn't.

Edited April 26, 2015 by TrueNeutral

[Meshugger]

Where does the biology end and the social construct begin?

[Fighter]

What you believe is ultimately your business, provided you don't try to "fix" other people to conform to your beliefs. Because we do not yet fully understand the underlying mechanisms that give rise to identification with a given gender, (or any other given personality trait, for that matter) we simply cannot be certain that they need repairs simply because they show a behavior different from the majority of the sample. But that's exactly what we're doing — we tell these people, openly or tacitly, that they are wrong.

 

The dragon simile is pretty cool, so I'm totally going to steal it. Imagine that you are exactly as you are now, but every male around you identifies as a dragon. They go around flapping their arms and yelling all the time like imbeciles. And you either pretend that you are a dragon too (and mimic their idiotic antics) or are looked down on as a deviant, un-dragonly, a freak of nature, or a plain old attention-whore. But deep down, you identify as something else, only you don't know exactly what it is because everyone around you with whom you share a phenotypic differentiation identifies as a silly fictional giant flying lizard... fun, huh?

 

 

First I'm not trying to fix anyone. I am hypothetically saying if there was a legitimate (and by legitimate I don't mean some crazy abuse) way for them to be happy with their genitals attached to them. They would be better of.

 

And again about "wrongness". When you want to express yourself like a typical female that's one thing. When you think your genitals don't belong to you to the point where you can't keep living as you are, there is something wrong there.

 

I don't have the time, or the energy, to get into a long discussion, but you're incorrect - there is, at a minimum, debate about equating biological sex and gender (this has predominantly happened within the sociological field, so if you're coming from a different background that could explain the disconnect). If you need a source, and there's plenty more where this comes from I just didn't feel like dragging out textbooks from boxes or doing a prolonged search of the internet this late at night, here's one that took all of three seconds to find:

http://www.med.monash.edu.au/gendermed/sexandgender.html

 

"Sex = male and female

 

Gender = masculine and feminine

 

So in essence:

 

Sex refers to biological differences; chromosomes, hormonal profiles, internal and external sex organs.

 

Gender describes the characteristics that a society or culture delineates as masculine or feminine."

 

But, whatever, it's your life and you're free to be completely wrong (although ignoring fact, that gender and biological sex are, in fact, not considered the same by a number of fields of study, in favor of an unsupported opinion, that they are the same thing, is not, in my opinion, the best course of action).

 

 

And you're saying biology plays no part whatsoever in most people being masculine or feminine? I am not ready to buy that.

 

As to the subject like I said before. Being a feminine man or a masculine woman is one thing. Wanting to cut off a part of your body you think doesn't belong to you is another.

 

What I'm getting here is that both of you are suggesting that the reason people may want to attempt a physical sex change is because society expects their biological sex and social gender expression to align. And it's this pressure that drives them to that point.

 

If I'm reading that right then it sounds like more reason to try and find ways to get one to accept their biology. Especially in these kids who are given physical treatments way before their minds are fully mature.

[213374U]

Man who claim they are Napoleon are locked away as lunatics and treated.

Why a man who claims he is a women is not treated the same?

 

Either allow "Napoleons" to legally change their name and surgically make them resemble the one they claim to be OR lock away transgenders as lunatics and treat them.

 

I'm opposed to the double standards, one standard will do just fine.

 

So, let's recap.

 

#1 kill fatties

 

#2 nuke Ukraine

 

#3 lock up trannies

 

 

Wow, you just have a lot of love to spread around, don't you?

[Guard Dog]

I didn't watch the interview because I really don't care. But from what I gather Jenner has been a very unhappy guy for most of his life. It's something I can't really sympathize with because it's beyond my comprehension but whatever. I look at it this way, he wants to become a woman:

 

1. It's legal to do so
2. The option is readily available.
3. He's spending his own money, not mine or the other taxpayers
4. He thinks it will make him happy

So. What's the problem? I wish him well and hope this will make him happy. Sadly, based on some of the things I've read over the years it probably will not.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

I don't have the time, or the energy, to get into a long discussion, but you're incorrect - there is, at a minimum, debate about equating biological sex and gender (this has predominantly happened within the sociological field, so if you're coming from a different background that could explain the disconnect). If you need a source, and there's plenty more where this comes from I just didn't feel like dragging out textbooks from boxes or doing a prolonged search of the internet this late at night, here's one that took all of three seconds to find:

http://www.med.monash.edu.au/gendermed/sexandgender.html

 

"Sex = male and female

 

Gender = masculine and feminine

 

So in essence:

 

Sex refers to biological differences; chromosomes, hormonal profiles, internal and external sex organs.

 

Gender describes the characteristics that a society or culture delineates as masculine or feminine."

 

But, whatever, it's your life and you're free to be completely wrong (although ignoring fact, that gender and biological sex are, in fact, not considered the same by a number of fields of study, in favor of an unsupported opinion, that they are the same thing, is not, in my opinion, the best course of action).

 

 

And you're saying biology plays no part whatsoever in most people being masculine or feminine? I am not ready to buy that.

 

 

Well, that very much depends on how you define "masculine" and "feminine". Which is where the problem begins, because, y'know, cultural norms aren't universal constants and even a halfway decent anthropologist could probably shoot down at least half of the characteristics you identify as masculine or feminine by citing perfectly functioning historical societies with completely different norms that, regardless, managed not to implode under the crushing weight of biological determinism - according to you - flying in the face of everything said societies were built upon.

[213374U]

First I'm not trying to fix anyone. I am hypothetically saying if there was a legitimate (and by legitimate I don't mean some crazy abuse) way for them to be happy with their genitals attached to them. They would be better of.

 

And again about "wrongness". When you want to express yourself like a typical female that's one thing. When you think your genitals don't belong to you to the point where you can't keep living as you are, there is something wrong there.

Agreed on both counts. But your original post was about research into a fix, which I (possibly mistakenly) assumed to mean a fix to them. But until we fully understand the causes of the problem, we don't know how or where the solution must be applied, or even what the solution is.

 

What do you think can drive a person to think their genitals don't belong in their body? Do you think such a thing would be possible in a social vacuum? Discrimination and stigma are, as it stands, an unavoidable side-effect of dysphoria. We don't know to what extent they might influence someone's already present ideas about their own body, and we don't know how such ideas to appear to begin with. A biological root cause is a possibility, but even biology isn't likely to provide black and white answers, and certainly not in simple terms (epigenetics, brain plasticity...). Hence my reply that before researching a "fix", we need to research the whats and hows.

[Ineth]

 

I do not believe in gender as a purely social construct.

 

 

 

I don't have the time, or the energy, to get into a long discussion, but you're incorrect - [...] this has predominantly happened within the sociological field

 

This is kind of the problem: Social "scientists" have constructed vast theories without a lot of cross-checking from the natural (a.k.a. 'real') sciences.

 

I mean, everyone probably agrees that social upbringing has an influence on gender roles, simply as a matter of common sense and experience with different cultures.

But I don't see how you can confidently tell Fighter he's "incorrect" about believing that they're not purely (a.k.a. 100%) social.

[Ineth]

I didn't watch the interview because I really don't care. But from what I gather Jenner has been a very unhappy guy for most of his life. It's something I can't really sympathize with because it's beyond my comprehension but whatever. I look at it this way, he wants to become a woman:

 

1. It's legal to do so
2. The option is readily available.
3. He's spending his own money, not mine or the other taxpayers
4. He thinks it will make him happy

So. What's the problem? I wish him well and hope this will make him happy. Sadly, based on some of the things I've read over the years it probably will not.

 

Exactly, they're adults and its their body and their money, so regardless of the scientific questions of how it or why happens, we should respect it rather than treating it as something that society has to "decide" on.

 

I do feel a little uneasy about gender reassignment surgery in children though. If my child wanted one, I'd be pretty concerned about the possibility that maybe it's just a phase or something, and that they'd then have to live with the irreparable damage caused by the surgery for the rest of their lives. So I'd probably force them to wait 'til their adults. (Or maybe at least 16 or so, if they make a convincing case for needing it.)

[Fighter]

 

Well, that very much depends on how you define "masculine" and "feminine". Which is where the problem begins, because, y'know, cultural norms aren't universal constants and even a halfway decent anthropologist could probably shoot down at least half of the characteristics you identify as masculine or feminine by citing perfectly functioning historical societies with completely different norms that, regardless, managed not to implode under the crushing weight of biological determinism - according to you - flying in the face of everything said societies were built upon.

 

I think that would need to be a very complicated discussion. People have done all sorts of things followed all sorts of fashions and codes that subvert or control their natural inclinations.

 

What do you think can drive a person to think their genitals don't belong in their body? Do you think such a thing would be possible in a social vacuum? Discrimination and stigma are, as it stands, an unavoidable side-effect of dysphoria. We don't know to what extent they might influence someone's already present ideas about their own body, and we don't know how such ideas to appear to begin with. A biological root cause is a possibility, but even biology isn't likely to provide black and white answers, and certainly not in simple terms (epigenetics, brain plasticity...). Hence my reply that before researching a "fix", we need to research the whats and hows.

 

Agreed.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

Well, that very much depends on how you define "masculine" and "feminine". Which is where the problem begins, because, y'know, cultural norms aren't universal constants and even a halfway decent anthropologist could probably shoot down at least half of the characteristics you identify as masculine or feminine by citing perfectly functioning historical societies with completely different norms that, regardless, managed not to implode under the crushing weight of biological determinism - according to you - flying in the face of everything said societies were built upon.

 

I think that would need to be a very complicated discussion. People have done all sorts of things followed all sorts of fashions and codes that subvert or control their natural inclinations.

 

 

Which is kind of my point! When "natural inclinations" are so eminently malleable by societal norms and expectations, the separation of (biological) sex and (societal) gender makes perfect sense.

[Fighter]

Which is kind of my point! When "natural inclinations" are so eminently malleable by societal norms and expectations, the separation of (biological) sex and (societal) gender makes perfect sense.

 

But they are linked by the very nature of this discussion. Because it's about people who seek to physically change their biological sex.