Why hate being a watcher?

[Elerond]

Sad ending of PC that can't cure their condition, because they decided not to trust certain person:

 

 

"The death of Lady Webb marked a turning point in your search for a cure to your condition. Without her help, the Leaden Key's trail soon ran cold. In time your visions invaded your waking thoughts, as they had for Maerwald, and took over your mind.

 

You would spend the remainder of your days wandering the streets of Defiance Bay, raving at passersby and fleeing the phantoms in your mind."

 

 

[Grand_Commander13]

Good luck finding Thanos. Even if you do, how will you deal with the infinity gauntlet?

Gaze of the Adradan. Let's see how high Thanos pumped Fortitude.

 

Regarding the topic at hand though, the game even has a failure state where you kill a plot-vital character and so go mad because you couldn't deal with Thaos as a result. I agree that the game could better show you that you were losing your mind (the visions were great but they were too infrequent and really need to be supported by a better representation of our troubled sleep) rather than having characters tell you about it from time to time.

[b0rsuk]

The dialog with Maerwald at the end of Act I is supposed to pretty much cement the fact that "Awakened Watcher" is basically a long, torturous death sentence. Don't know many people that wouldn't see that as a Bad Thing.

 

I don't feel that way. Thorough the game, player has the option to pick OTHER dialogue choices than "my head hurt". For instance, you can keep telling people you're chasing Thaos because you want to learn more about your shared past. It's up to you to decide.

Edited April 21, 2015 by b0rsuk

[Guest]

See Elerond's post above. 

 

There is *what's happening* and then there is *how you deal with it*. Your response seems more relevant to the latter than the former.

[b0rsuk]

In that case, it would be more dramatic if player character literally lost control sometimes, for example in combat he starts attacking some lost souls only he can see and is knocked out. No more than once per 10 fights, just for flavor.

[SparocheeDoom]

Is Watcher something only Wizards become??? I am early in the game, but I am level 4 and already finished most Veil quests, aside from Raedric. I do not recall seeing my own old soul, yet. Is that something that happens in the future or have I missed it?

 

I was able to look into many people's souls in Veil, but so far it hasn't added to any quests or plots, aside from that bear quest, where you can see how the eaten man was set up.

 

I do not see how being perceived as a Watch/tortured soul is a bad thing really. Have you not played Planescape Torment? Sadness can be a powerful theme. Hell, Dragon Age: Origins was all bloody and depressing, but it was a hell of a game!

Edited April 21, 2015 by MonarchX

[Elerond]

Every player character becomes watcher

[El Zoido]

My impression of the whole Watcher theme was this:

First it seemed to me that going mad was simply a possibility for watchers, not a certainty. When, over the course of the game your char showed signs as well, it did kinda seem that it would inevitbly happen to Watchers.

Eventually however it looked more and more as if the cause for going mad is an unresolved issue in your past life, not the condition of being a Watcher per se. It just seems that Watchers have higher chance to become awakened and encounter those unresolved issues.

 

 

The execution pictures and such is... yeah. There's nothing really.. bad about it, either, it's just.. isn't that what you'd expect to see, anyway?

Also, I just realized that Defiance Bay appears to be completely devoid of this stuff, despite the fact that Defiance Bay should be a massive nexus, a humongous cluster of souls, compared to the random roads of Dyrwood. Ondra's Gift should send you reeling.

But there's nothing.

 

 

The way I understood it, those torture visions happen at places where tortures by the inquisition took place, or rather, your older incarnation witnessed them while he worked for Thaos and the Inquisition.

Maybe in Defiance Bay that wasn't the case, for whatever reason?

 

What happened at Ondra's Gift in particular isn't related to your time with the Inquisition, but to the Dyrwood's battle for independence, afaik.

Edited April 21, 2015 by El Zoido

[Guest]

In that case, it would be more dramatic if player character literally lost control sometimes, for example in combat he starts attacking some lost souls only he can see and is knocked out. No more than once per 10 fights, just for flavor.

Yes, because everyone knows that players love it when they lose control of their character. We keep telling devs to give us more of this, but they never listen to us.

 

Personally, I felt that the whole "occasionally seeing ghosts" and "where the **** did that torture scene come from" thing was sufficient to set the mood. I'm ok with this too, as it would appear to make me part of their target audience.

[sparklecat]

 

It also broke my immersion. You arrived at Giled Vale and get questioned by that painful deputy guy, right? I didn't want to tell him anything (since its obvious he's hanging suspicious people) and yet to advance the plot you have to ask him about soul specialists!

 

Yeah, I really disliked this; the last thing I wanted was to suggest to that dude that there was anything abnormal about me.

[Dadalama]

Similar thing in guilded vale with different subject matter. I have to ask about the homesteading even though I just got done talking to Calisca about my plans to be an itinerant weirdo. I couldn't just tell him to piss off without asking about whether I can stay in the town with the dead people tree? Yes I like having to smell corpses every time I go to the town square, please tell me I can stay. I think I'll move into the ruined church next door.

[Peanuckle]

Before I read this thread I didn't even know the PC wasn't getting good rest. Totally went over my head.

 

I think that Awakenings are absurdly easy. Maerwald got his by staring at a fire. The PC got his by seeing Thaos.

 

The world needs some kind of Lethe to wipe the memories away, because it's far too easy to remember previous lives.

[Heijoushin]

 

Yup, I agree with the above post. In fact, now that I think about it, why does that funny machine even turn you into a watcher? (or awaken you?) It's all pretty vague.

 

And while we're nitpicking, how come the main character never eats those berries or drinks the water to fix their stomach bug in act 1?

The *machine* doesn't turn you into a Watcher, surviving the biawac does.

 

Seeing Thaos is what triggers the Awakening.

 

This is all fairly explicit.

 

 

Okay, so the Biawac turns you into a watcher? So why does the player survive the biawac when no one else does? Everyone you meet seems to believe that biawacs are usually pretty fatal. If biawacs sometimes result in watchers, then there should be more lore surrounding that.

 

Your character is obviously a special snowflake, but its not very clear as to why.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2015 by Heijoushin

[brionkj]

In that case, it would be more dramatic if player character literally lost control sometimes, for example in combat he starts attacking some lost souls only he can see and is knocked out. No more than once per 10 fights, just for flavor.

After Obs got burned for the Soul Eater mechanics in MotB, I think they've sworn off actual in-game 'curse' effects. Quite a pity actually... 

[Guest]

Okay, so the Biawac turns you into a watcher? So why does the player survive the biawac when no one else does? Everyone you meet seems to believe that biawacs are usually pretty fatal. If biawacs sometimes result in watchers, then there should be more lore surrounding that.

 

Your character is obviously a special snowflake, but its not very clear as to why.

If you actually read/listened to the dialog with the dwarf woman hanging from the tree, rather than clicking through (which is what you had to have done in order to miss this), then it wouldn't be so confusing.

[Heijoushin]

 

Okay, so the Biawac turns you into a watcher? So why does the player survive the biawac when no one else does? Everyone you meet seems to believe that biawacs are usually pretty fatal. If biawacs sometimes result in watchers, then there should be more lore surrounding that.

 

Your character is obviously a special snowflake, but its not very clear as to why.

If you actually read/listened to the dialog with the dwarf woman hanging from the tree, rather than clicking through (which is what you had to have done in order to miss this), then it wouldn't be so confusing.

 

Oh man, you're cold.. I did read it, but I seem to have forgotten (^_^;

[Luckmann]

 

Okay, so the Biawac turns you into a watcher? So why does the player survive the biawac when no one else does? Everyone you meet seems to believe that biawacs are usually pretty fatal. If biawacs sometimes result in watchers, then there should be more lore surrounding that.

 

Your character is obviously a special snowflake, but its not very clear as to why.

If you actually read/listened to the dialog with the dwarf woman hanging from the tree, rather than clicking through (which is what you had to have done in order to miss this), then it wouldn't be so confusing.

 

Yeeaaaah that's, just, like, a theory, man.

 

Aloth also thinks that your key characteristic is being Awakened, but I'm not so convinced anymore.

 

My impression of the whole Watcher theme was this:

First it seemed to me that going mad was simply a possibility for watchers, not a certainty. When, over the course of the game your char showed signs as well, it did kinda seem that it would inevitbly happen to Watchers.

Eventually however it looked more and more as if the cause for going mad is an unresolved issue in your past life, not the condition of being a Watcher per se. It just seems that Watchers have higher chance to become awakened and encounter those unresolved issues.

 

The execution pictures and such is... yeah. There's nothing really.. bad about it, either, it's just.. isn't that what you'd expect to see, anyway?

 

Also, I just realized that Defiance Bay appears to be completely devoid of this stuff, despite the fact that Defiance Bay should be a massive nexus, a humongous cluster of souls, compared to the random roads of Dyrwood. Ondra's Gift should send you reeling.

 

But there's nothing.

 

The way I understood it, those torture visions happen at places where tortures by the inquisition took place, or rather, your older incarnation witnessed them while he worked for Thaos and the Inquisition.

Maybe in Defiance Bay that wasn't the case, for whatever reason?

 

What happened at Ondra's Gift in particular isn't related to your time with the Inquisition, but to the Dyrwood's battle for independence, afaik.

 

But you see people left and right, sometimes just walking across the street, too. What you say might be true, and I'm convinced it is true to at least an extent, but you also see souls of all kinds here and there, some recently deceased (Bear-mauled guy, Kid in Ondra's Gift) and some that died at least a decade ago (Temple of Eothas).

 

But suddenly Defiance Bay appears mostly devoid of these random flashes. It's odd.

 

And I'm willing to accept the whole "over the course of the game"-thing, but I still feel it should've been conveyed to the player, and if it's intended to be gradual, that still doesn't explain why you'd jump at the chance of fixing this. If the "you're going mad" is gradual, then the push on you, your reason for investigating this issue, should also be gradual.

 

But it's right after Caed Nua, straight to Defiance Bay, and whoop, the Leaden Key are clear antagonists and you're no longer sure why, and I have no idea why I'm even investigating this in this manner.

 

Maybe they shouldn't have put it in a straight line, but instead found some other reason for you to go to Defiance Bay, where you stumble over one of their three ongoing plots, while your insanity also builds up and is conveyed unto the player, and you start investigating the leaden key, and then the necessity of further investigation and to de-Awakene your soul becomes more and more apparent?

 

I dunno.

[Guest BugsVendor]

I think being an awakened watcher is cool story wise. It's kinda cool and makes you special.

 

But it seems to me like almost everything is this game ( game is still cool and fun and all) was not so well thought out.

 

Biggest disappointment is that you learn that you can investigate some people's souls and their past life experiences. And literally there is no use of it what so ever.

 

Yeah there are those backer's characters that i believe everyone stopped clicking on after the first 10 or 15 dudes. It is not because the writing is bad or anything, some of these that are read are quite nice. However, they have NOTHING AT ALL, AT ANY STAGE, WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH THE STORY.

 

I waited whole game to have one quest where for example someone is asking me to retrieve an item and I can look into his soul so that I could find out about his motives, a little extra information. Say this quest where you get a medallion from a lady in the pleasure establishment. The dude in the tavern convinces you that it is the most valuable treasure of his tribe. It would be so cool to look into his soul, or souls that touched the medallion to verify this.

 

But it seems that apart from those side stories you can never actually role-play being the watcher because only main quest seem to have anything to do with it. I know there is the murder in guilded vale and all but most of the time you feel just like a random dude.

 

In the main quest I hated these meetings with Thaos where you could talk to him but there was so little introduction or my understanding of that past life that I felt it didn't matter at all what I told him. Also I felt it added nothing more than saying you had something to do with each other in the past life. You didn't even know in some of these visions if this was you or someone else.

 

Just to summarize I think they could have done a much better job. 

[Guest]

Well, except for the part that it allows you to thwart the efforts of a god and her Favored. Besides that, being a Watcher doesn't really do anything for the story.

[Starwars]

I think it seems like there were maybe different story iterations or something and then they got mashed together a bit for the end product. I dunno, the bits and pieces are there but given that quite a lot of people have a problem with how it's told, I think there is something to it and not just "players not paying attention".

I think it needed way more "reinforcing" to have felt truly believable.

 

A good example is at the end where the narration says something like "and finally, the Watcher was able to sleep..." and I was like.. huh? There are a handful of interactions where a NPC wakes you up, and there is the Pillar dream but I mean... there is no indictation that there is "no sleep for the Watcher" otherwise. We get the cozy campfire, we're all rested up and healed after each time. It really doesn't sell the point that we're actually suffering from something.

 

It's a predicament because yeah, people would likely be very pissed off if OEI included something like the spirit meter from MotB (I liked it personally) and I'm not sure it would've been a good idea for a game of this size anyways. But... I felt they needed way more than they do to sell that the character is on the "path to insanity" as it were.

 

I think being *both* awakened and a Watcher also felt a bit... clumsy. Maybe they were supposed to be one condition from the start? It's like... you have *this* condition, but you also have *that* condition! It's a bit clumsy I feel and muddles the waters of what is supposed a main driving point for the character.

 

I love the ideas, I love the flashbacks, but the execution of selling the actual predicament could've been better.

 

EDIT: I also think it's a good point above that, when you reach Defiance Bay, a lot of the visions and other problems that the character is suffering from seem to vanish into the ether and the game becomes about something else. What motivation was there kinda disappears.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Starwars

[Elerond]

Well, except for the part that it allows you to thwart the efforts of a god and her Favored. Besides that, being a Watcher doesn't really do anything for the story.

 

What it now let you find information from souls of dead people, which let you progress in story and solve and do things that weren't necessary part of main plot, but still quite important part of the story as whole. But maybe those things don't count.

[Ineth]

the whole watcher concept is the weakest joint in this game. A weak Deus Ex Machina kind of element.

 

I don't think that term means what you think it means.

[Exyll]

whats the difference between camping (camping fire) and camping (visionary scene), I always felt like the visionary campscene meant I was going a little crazier?

[Luckmann]

whats the difference between camping (camping fire) and camping (visionary scene), I always felt like the visionary campscene meant I was going a little crazier?

 

None. It seems to just be a visual.

[Elerond]

 

whats the difference between camping (camping fire) and camping (visionary scene), I always felt like the visionary campscene meant I was going a little crazier?

 

None. It seems to just be a visual.

 

 

It could be remnant of system (although I have my doubts) that would have worked as way to limit how much time player character has to solve their problem/s, but which has dropped because time limits to finish the game was seen as bad thing by lots of backers and/or they realized that it don't work well with how they want to tell the story and/or limit the players.