One handed good enough?

[Duncan]

Hey folks, for those who have tried one handed into the late game, how would you say it is? Early on its awesome because you make great use of the +accuracy but given the cool buffs to weapons that show up later on, I wonder if dual wielding will beat it by a landslide. Please let me know

 

Btw im thonking of making a fighter, and focus on the more offensive talents it offers. But that's just flavor as the one handed style is universal.

[Duncan]

Nobody uses one handed? Guess that's sort of an answer :D

[MadDemiurg]

1h crit build is good enough. In fact, sabre offers almost as much damage as 2h atm, with higher accuracy and speed. Quite good option if you're not going for the reach. Problem is, your tanks will likely use a shield and your melee dps will use reach to stay out of trouble. So it's not a build for a full tank + full dps party which most are using.

Edited April 10, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Luckmann]

Eh.. "Good enough"? Well.. I mean, it's possible. It really comes down to what is "enough". With a group, you can certainly complete the game, no doubt.

But does dual-wielding beat it by a landslide? Yes. The +12 Accuracy that you gain for duelist fighting isn't nearly enough to compensate, and the One-Weapon Style Talent is utter rubbish - it only happens when something that will be relatively rare to you happens, and the higher your Accuracy gets (and as a duelist, you will want to stack Accuracy, obviously) the less useful it gets.

Even if we assume an equal Deflection and Accuracy, Grazes only happens on a roll of 16-50, which is to say 34%. The higher your Accuracy gets over the enemy Deflection (and again you are all about the Accuracy, and have an extra +12 Accuracy to boot) the less Grazes you are going to get. And then, when you DO get a Graze, there's only a 30% chance that it will become a hit (upping the damage from 50% to 100% - that is, to say, a 100% increase to what you should've gotten).

Overall, that is pretty damn terrible, when compared to Dual-Wielding and Two-Handed Weapons. No-one has run the math against using a Shield, because obviously, that is all about the defences and will always come up as the shortest.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Luckmann

[Crucis]

1h crit build is good enough. In fact, sabre offers almost as much damage as 2h atm, with higher accuracy and speed. Quite good option if you're not going for the reach. Problem is, your tanks will likely use a shield and your melee dps will use reach to stay out of trouble. So it's not a build for a full tank + full dps party which most are using.

 

I pretty much agree with this.

 

If you're going to have a tank whose job is to hold the front line, his job is less about dealing mega damage than it is staying alive to hold that front line.  And to do this, he'll probably need to maximize his defenses, meaning that a 1H weapon and shield combo is probably the best choice for this sort of character.  He may not have quite the high damage potential of other tanks, but this sort of sword and shield fighter can be monsterously hard to kill, if one selects the right talents and items to get the job done.

 

I have Eder filling this role, and probably well over half the battles, he hardly takes much damage at all, because he's simply so hard for the enemy to hit.  And yet at the same time, he's leading my party in damage by nearly 50% more than the 2nd best damage producer, my ranger PC.

[Duncan]

Shame, as I was afraid, it seems pretty subpar. Granted the combat in the game is stupid easy. So I was going to only get 3 companions in my party as oppose to the full group, plus most likely going in hard. Not sure if my one handed fighter will handle that. But hey, I'll give it a go anyway. At least it'll be challenging and fun

[Gilker]

so far, none of my party used one handed style. i can't see any pro bu i see many drawbacks. in the endgame, your accuracy is so high that the one handed bonus is pointless. plus you can have a shield absolutely stunning, Scat Gwannek which gives you +24 deflection and +7-11 dmg (basically dual wielding with a shield) for only -4 accuracy to wield it.

 

Eder as a shield tank didn't do that mutch damage in my party, he ended the game at 38 000 damage done, that two time less than my rogue and wizard, both around 80 000.

[knownastherat]

I am trying it at the moment on (kinda melee) Wizard . I did not like how animations with Grimoire with 2H or 2W looked but as noted in OP + accuracy is interesting.

[Duncan]

I think the main problem is that the one handed accuracy bonus doesn't scale to mid or late game. Once you start getting exceptional quality items, their bonuses in the off hand do more than make up for the 12 accuracy bonus. This should be adjusted to make that weapon style balanced with the other ones imo.

[Matt516]

I think the main problem is that the one handed accuracy bonus doesn't scale to mid or late game. Once you start getting exceptional quality items, their bonuses in the off hand do more than make up for the 12 accuracy bonus. This should be adjusted to make that weapon style balanced with the other ones imo.

To be fair, neither does the 2H talent. It adds 15% of the base 2H damage, which doesn't scale up with weapon quality at all.

[Duncan]

I wasn't even talking about the one handed talent. That is pure garbage. when I roll my one handed fighter im staying away from it. Going two handed is good, plenty of pros. Whether the talent is good or bad is another issue. The fact that it doesn't keep weapon quality in mind sucks though.

[Luckmann]

I think the main problem is that the one handed accuracy bonus doesn't scale to mid or late game. Once you start getting exceptional quality items, their bonuses in the off hand do more than make up for the 12 accuracy bonus. This should be adjusted to make that weapon style balanced with the other ones imo.

 

+8 + 1 per level would be a good scaling, I thinking, meaning +20 at level 12. But the biggest issue really is the Talent. The Two-Handed Style Talent is boring, but at least it's good and dependable. The One-Handed Style Talent is really, really bad. My suggestion has always been to add a secondary effect to it, such as increasing Penetration, or reducing Recovery Time a lot after managing to Deflect (a riposte-like effect, essentially; you deflect during Recovery, you get to attack faster).

 

Or something like that.

[Duncan]

 

 

I think the main problem is that the one handed accuracy bonus doesn't scale to mid or late game. Once you start getting exceptional quality items, their bonuses in the off hand do more than make up for the 12 accuracy bonus. This should be adjusted to make that weapon style balanced with the other ones imo.

+8 + 1 per level would be a good scaling, I thinking, meaning +20 at level 12. But the biggest issue really is the Talent. The Two-Handed Style Talent is boring, but at least it's good and dependable. The One-Handed Style Talent is really, really bad. My suggestion has always been to add a secondary effect to it, such as increasing Penetration, or reducing Recovery Time a lot after managing to Deflect (a riposte-like effect, essentially; you deflect during Recovery, you get to attack faster).

 

Or something like that.

Your suggestions are pretty amazing actually. I'd be down with either. I hope this catches a dev's eye.

[b0rsuk]

As a general choice they might not be viable, but for a class that has lots of activated powers - like Monk - it can be good to make sure you don't miss. It also depends on special artifacts which trigger on crit.

 

I think the accuracy bonus from using a 1-handed weapon without shield is a little silly. I mean, it would make more sense if it increased action speed instead. You have one free hand ! Hands are good at manipulating items! A person wielding two weapons, or one huge weapon will have harder time reaching for a potion, scroll, or making gestures to cast a spell.

Edited April 10, 2015 by b0rsuk

[MadDemiurg]

Again, from pure dps perspective, 1h is probably better than 2h atm (not sure about estoc though). But if you compare sabre vs most 2h it is 13-19 vs 14-20, with better attack speed and accuracy. +12 accuracy is a big deal. People that say they have no problem with deflection are not playing PotD.

 

Let's say you have 35 graze chance, 50 hit chance and 15 miss chance. vs 0 dr that means your average damage is 0.15 * 0 * damage + 0.35 * 0.5 * damage + 0.5 * 1 * damage = 0.675 weapon damage on average. 11.475 average damage for 14-20 weapon.

 

With +12 accuracy:

23 graze, 62 hit, 3 miss, 12 crit: 0.03 * 0 * damage + 0.23 * 0.5 * damage + 0.62 * 1 * damage + 0.12 * 1.5 * damage = 0.915 weapon damage. With 13-19 weapon : 14.64 average damage.

 

Also 0.915/0.675 ~= 1.35. So 12 more accuracy means 35% increase in dps in this case.

 

It might seem that higher DR would favor 2h, but higher hit and crit rate don't make it so one sided. Don't have time for a chart atm, but 1h would look very solid.

 

Thing is, you want your frontliners with shields and your glasscanons with pikes/quarterstaffs for reach. If you're brave enough to go into full contact without a shield though, 1h is a solid choice.

Edited April 10, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[mazeltov]

The point of smallish conversion bonuses is to stack them. Fighters can get 70% Graze conversion easily, which becomes noticeable on enemies with high Deflection.

 

Pally aura with 5% Hit-to-Crit conversion? How pathetic is that lol! Not so pathetic when added to 50% cobbled together from other sources.

[Rosbjerg]

I went pure one hand druid with a spear, to see it's effect. I deal some ok damage, but I'm very vulnerable, so it's not a build I'll recommend if you're going for efficiency - it's not impossible though and not as weak as some would seem to suggest.

 

It's fine for a flanking character that comes in, throws a few punches and rolls out again to do spells though.

[MadDemiurg]

You need to stack DR on your 1h/dw melee if you want them usable outside of flanking. That is a direct tradeoff with dps though.

[Caerdon]

I, for one, have no problem with 1H being subpar.

 

In reality, 1H fighting only happens in self-defence situations, because carrying a single, light weapon only is just so convenient compared to alternatives. Anyone who's actually expecting to get into a fight and gets to prepare for it, would take a buckler, a shield, a companion weapon or a proper two-handed weapon.

 

It's nice that 1H still offers some unique benefit, though.

[MadDemiurg]

1h was widely used historically though, but mostly in duels and not in mass combat. DW is the silly fantasy style that offers no benefit IRL (aside from some quite specific styles that used a small defensive weapon in the 2nd hand). W+S and 2H are technically the most efficient styles in line combat.

Edited April 10, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Duncan]

Um. No. Many soldiers and Knights or duelists trained and fought with a longsword only. It is a middle ground in balance, speed, and effectiveness. It also opens up your other hand for disarms and other physical maneuvers and you're not hauling a cumbersome shield to slow you down. Your average peasant or sellsword will fare better with a shield to cover his undisciplined onslaught of course.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Duncan

[Infares]

Yeah, the problem with nontanks using nonreach weapons is that Engagement is a one-way street, being engaged doesn't lock you to a target, the enemy can simply turn 30 degrees and start attacking the squishy. 

This is by far why any melee that doesn't use reach weapons need to be built sorta tanky on principle.

[Jimmysdabestcop]

I also find the 1H talent to be lacking. I think it should have boosted deflection as well. So you would get the natural acc bonus from using 1H and then a deflection bonus from the talent.

[MadDemiurg]

I think 1h unique talent should be "parry" instead of graze-to-hit bullcrap. You make a roll using your accuracy vs opponents accuracy using some negative modifier so it would be balanced and if you win your opponent misses.

[MaxDamage]

Im going to use it to make on crit stuns appear more frequently. +12 acc helps to land crits.