will i be able to kill indiscriminately?

[Shdy314]

I agree that you should be able to kill random passersby. In KoToR I should have been able to kill that sith guard rather than give him papers.

Then you never could have gotten the door open. Even if it isn't said let's just assume there is a security code on that door the guard has to enter. At the very least let's pretend the guard has to check in every so often and if they don't hear from him LOCKDOWN! Every security force on Taris is looking for you. You can't slaughter every Sith guard you see. Just like it would have been a dumb idea to attack the Sith patrols walking the courtyard. If you kill the guard at the door The Sith are going to be waiting for you there. For all intents and purposes game over. So sorry but you'll have to act intelligently instead of killing everything that oooks at you funny.

[Shdy314]

I agree that you should be able to kill random passersby. In KoToR I should have been able to kill that sith guard rather than give him papers.

Then you never could have gotten the door open. Even if it isn't said let's just assume there is a security code on that door the guard has to enter. At the very least let's pretend the guard has to check in every so often and if they don't hear from him LOCKDOWN! Every security force on Taris is looking for you. You can't slaughter every Sith guard you see. Just like it would have been a dumb idea to attack the Sith patrols walking the courtyard. If you kill the guard at the door The Sith are going to be waiting for you there. For all intents and purposes game over. So sorry but you'll have to act intelligently instead of killing everything that looks at you funny.

[AlanC9]

Fine, it's game over if you kill that guard. So let it be over. Why protect players from their own stupidity?

 

The real problem is with the plot and other NPCs. It would be a ton of work to make the game accomodate psychopaths.

 

Sorwen, it's not a question of an on/off check. Odyssey handles non-hostiles differently from hostiles - they can't be targeted at all. (Unlike NWN). You'd need UI work to make this possible.

[kefka]

Fine, it's game over if you kill that guard. So let it be over. Why protect players from their own stupidity?

Good point.

 

It's also game over if you choose the wrong option during your trial, so making stupid decisions, and paying for them, is fine by me.

[roguefrog]

I like it when the kill option is always open. All the EI games had it. Fallout had it. Arcanum had it. NWN had it but not to the same degree since a lot of character were set to invincible. Preventing the player from playing that card is too restrictive and prevents me from roleplaying in some cases.

[Sorwen]

Fine, it's game over if you kill that guard. So let it be over. Why protect players from their own stupidity?

 

The real problem is with the plot and other NPCs. It would be a ton of work to make the game accomodate psychopaths.

 

Sorwen, it's not a question of an on/off check. Odyssey handles non-hostiles differently from hostiles - they can't be targeted at all. (Unlike NWN). You'd need UI work to make this possible.

Actually it still likely is. The NWN tools they use are the same ones that you get when you buy Never Winter. I'm sure there are some big improvements that were made for the tool set for KoToR, but the basic principals for their file structure hasn't changed. It make perfect sense that there are similar tools, infact that is part of what Obsidian licenced.

 

I'm sure Obsidian has the same ban on speaking about modding that Bioware has. Do a google search and you will see what I mean. Go to Never Winter Vault and you'll find some info on some things that were removed by request. Excuse me if I've said more than I should.

[Judge Hades]

That is one of the more annoying things about KotOR which no doubt will be in KotOR 2. The way that KotOR2 is sounding like I don't even know why they are even bothering letting the player make his or her own character. It won't matter much due to the limitations on role playing being put into the game.

[Darque]

I think a PC should be able to kill anyone.

 

After which I think a realistic number of guard characters (say 100) should appear to eithr capture or kill the PC for murder

 

True evil characters won't just kill anyone... well I guess Chaotic stupid... errr evil ones would

[triCritical]

The inability to kill whomever you want has always been one Biowares weakness. Arcanum was absolutely revolutionary in the fact that you could kill even the most plot essential characters in the game and still find a way to advance. It wasn't easy, but you could.

 

Hell, to Bioware fans thats a knock. O TIS TWO HARDE!!11!!11

[roguefrog]

I would settle for what they did with Morrowind. If you kill a plot essential character, you get a message basically telling you.

[Drakron]

The inability to kill whomever you want has always been one Biowares weakness.

You could in BG1 and B2 (plus their add ons), so that means half of BioWare cRPGs games allowed to kill anyone.

[poolofpoo]

The inability to kill whomever you want has always been one Biowares weakness.

You could in BG1 and B2 (plus their add ons), so that means half of BioWare cRPGs games allowed to kill anyone.

nah they had "unkillable" npc's in bg1 and 2

 

if you don't have the time to make the plot work with all npc's being killable you should use the IWD2 aproach "you've killed a plot critial npc and need to restart the game" or something along those line (preferably something a little more embellished)

[AlanC9]

Actually it still likely is. The NWN tools they use are the same ones that you get when you buy Never Winter. I'm sure there are some big improvements that were made for the tool set for KoToR, but the basic principals for their file structure hasn't changed. It make perfect sense that there are similar tools, infact that is part of what Obsidian licenced.

You're missing the point.

 

The engine problem isn't that the KotOR non-hostile NPCs are plot-flagged (though I presume they are, or they could be killed by grenades). The problem is that there's no way to target a non-hostile creature, so there's no way to start a battle with them. That's why you need new interface functionality.

 

You could add a dialog that turns the NPC hostile. But you'd have to add that for all the NPCs, even those who only have one-liners currently - unless they turn the whole planet hostile the moment you kill any innocent NPC.

 

A lot of work for something fairly worthless. I didn't see how the Morrowind method added anything to gameplay. OK, I can kill anybody. Then I get to reload. Whee.

 

Arcanum's system is better, but I still don't see that as being a really useful feature. Then again, I don't play psychopaths, so plotlines I'm never going to see are worthless from my standpoint. YMMV.

[Volourn]

Arcanum was revolutionary? Weird... You musta missed the FO games that came before that one. WOWSERS.

[triCritical]

Arcanum's system is better, but I still don't see that as being a really useful feature. Then again, I don't play psychopaths, so plotlines I'm never going to see are worthless from my standpoint. YMMV.

Its not so much playing a crazy. Its more like I don't want to have to go to the sewer to meet someone, save a wookie, break into a base to steal something so I can make a speeder, so I can race. Sometimes, like in Arcanum, you threaten them, and if they still don't give, you kill'em. And that is all about roleplaying. Because while it may make the game easier, it helps define you're character and truly make different playing experience.

 

You could in BG1 and B2 (plus their add ons), so that means half of BioWare cRPGs games allowed to kill anyone.

 

No way man. They just turn invincible, or go way hostile on you making the game unbeatable. Just try killing Gorian in the beginning and try finishing the game from that point. A good character centric story will not force you into situations, but rather give you a rich story and allow you to create you own situations.

 

I think in PS:T, the only character you couldn't kill was Ravel, could be wrong.

[Akari]

I think in PS:T, the only character you couldn't kill was Ravel, could be wrong.

I'm curious. If you go through Torment killing everyone you can find, is there even really a story to it? I can think of a number of critical path points off hand that seem like they would break were you to just slaughter every NPC.

 

I could be wrong though, since I never tried it. How would you get to Ravel if you killed everyone in the Brothel of Slating Intellectual Lusts, for example? How would you get the portal to Ravel if you killed everyone in the Godsmen foundry? Were there actually ways to progress the game anyway?

 

-Akari

[triCritical]

I'm curious.  If you go through Torment killing everyone you can find, is there even really a story to it?  I can think of a number of critical path points off hand that seem like they would break were you to just slaughter every NPC.

That is not my point. If you can kill everyone then you can selectively choose who you want to kill to get through the game, in the role that best suits you're character. This is different then actually killing everyone. In other words, while I may not kill everyone I may want to do away with certain key players, that are hindering my style. The only way to insure that the game does not break, is to allow for the character to kill everyone.

 

I could be wrong though, since I never tried it. How would you get to Ravel if you killed everyone in the Brothel of Slating Intellectual Lusts, for example? How would you get the portal to Ravel if you killed everyone in the Godsmen foundry? Were there actually ways to progress the game anyway?

 

Yeah you're probably right. What I meant to say is that the the only one character that I ever killed that gave me a message saying GAME OVER, is Ravel. The irony is that about 3.4 minutes later (depends on reading time), I would be forced to try kill her anyway.

[Akari]

That is not my point.  If you can kill everyone then you can selectively choose who you want to kill to get through the game, in the role that best suits you're character.

 

But then the game will just shut you down once you've killed a plot-critical character. Or do like Morrowind where it says 'You've killed someone that will keep you from advancing the story' but lets you keep playing with the knowledge that you're not going to get anywhere in the end. Either of those seem just as 'non-roleplaying' as making plot-centric characters invincible.

 

The only way to insure that the game does not break, is to allow for the character to kill everyone.

 

Another way to keep the game from breaking is to keep the characer from killing everyone.

 

Yet another approach is to just let you kill everyone that you want to, but make the story shallow enough that the game is still passable anyway (Fallout's approach). These are all valid ways, and all create very different gaming experiences.

 

Anyway, I wasn't looking to challenge your point so much as just clarify your cited example. I have Torment on the brain a lot, having played it for the first time back in January. But I only played it through Neutral-Goodish, so I do wonder about the other approaches. I don't decide this kind of stuff internally. I'm just following the discussion because it's interesting.

 

-Akari

[AlanC9]

I think it highly unlikely that you'll see this sort of thing in a game with all dialogue spoken. That puts a serious constraint on the number of possible paths, right? You could still do Morrowind's approach as long as you don't care about making folks react appropriately to your behavior.

 

Thinking about the earlier example of not wanting to do the Taris underground quests: it would have been amusing to let players frontally assault the Vulkar base, only to find out that it's irrelevant because Bastila isn't there. This would actually be easy enough to allow for - all you'd need is a couple of dialogs with the Beks when you end up having to talk with them anyway. Though there'd be big cutscene issues later, since going that route means you'd probably never pick up Mission and Zaalbar.

 

triCritical, did you mean Lothar earlier? I'm pretty sure he's the invincible one in PS:T.

 

edit: What happens if you attack Gorion in BG1? Even without any special programming, shouldn't he simply annihilate a 1st-level character?

[triCritical]

But then the game will just shut you down once you've killed a plot-critical character. Or do like Morrowind where it says 'You've killed someone that will keep you from advancing the story' but lets you keep playing with the knowledge that you're not going to get anywhere in the end. Either of those seem just as 'non-roleplaying' as making plot-centric characters invincible.

If I am not mistaken only one character in Morrowind is plot critical. And that is the first guy you talk to belonging to the blades. Even then, that is kind of weak, because they could have done something better.

 

Actually what I am talking about is what Arcanum did. Basically, if you kill someone plot critical, there is someone else that can help you, or if you kill him too, there might be a note in his locker leading you in the right direction. If you play Arcanum, and kill Gilbert Bates, which is the most plot critical character in the beginning of the game. Believe it, or not there will be a way to continue. BTW, its not easy to kill to G.B.

 

Yet another approach is to just let you kill everyone that you want to, but make the story shallow enough that the game is still passable anyway (Fallout's approach). These are all valid ways, and all create very different gaming experiences.

 

This is the way I would prefer. I do not think a story should drive a characters action, instead the other way around. FO's shallow story, is really just a plot outline. Instead it is you're character which creates the story. Case and point, the story of Fallout 1 in the FO2 manual, couldn't have been more different then my first experience going through FO. I think its hard to pull off a good CRPG, any other way. I think PS:T, is the exception.

 

Also, I do not think CRPG's should be about story. Instead I think that exploration and interaction is paramount. The ability for characters to solve problems different way is much more important then some linear script unfolding before you're eyes. Again while PS:T was like this, what it did right, was making you believe that it was not doing that.

 

I don't decide this kind of stuff internally. I'm just following the discussion because it's interesting.

 

Me too. I am like the third party in politics, I just present wild and crazy ideas that have no chance of being implemented, but perhaps in a way weird way I can bias a developers ideas so that future games will be more fun for me to play.

[triCritical]

edit: What happens if you attack Gorion in BG1? Even without any special programming, shouldn't he simply annihilate a 1st-level character

I am not sure really, but I am sure you won't be able to leave the tutorial.

[AlanC9]

That is not my point.  If you can kill everyone then you can selectively choose who you want to kill to get through the game, in the role that best suits you're character.  This is different then actually killing everyone.  In other words, while I may not kill everyone I may want to do away with certain key players, that are hindering my style.  The only way to insure that the game does not break, is to allow for the character to kill everyone.

Surely there are some characters whom it would be completely unfeasible to murder, though? Or even if they can be killed, retribution would be so swift and certain as to make the act irrational.

 

I don't mind it when a CRPG doesn't present irrational options. It beats having a half-assed response to my using them.

 

Edit: the funny thing is, killing Gorion wouldn't break BG1. You'd only have to redo Sarevok's diary and Elminster's appearance, and probably not have Imoen join you.

[triCritical]

Edit: the funny thing is, killing Gorion wouldn't break BG1. You'd only have to redo Sarevok's diary and Elminster's appearance, and probably not have Imoen join you.

If you kill Gorion, how the heck would ever start Ch. 1?

[roguefrog]

The funny thing is Gorian is killable. That old wizard that you get a scroll from as part of a fetch quest isn't. He'll rain down one hit kill call lighting while Gorian casts one hit kill lighting bolts. The easiest way to kill Gorian is to swarm him with creatures via Wand of Monster Summoning. If you kill him you can't leave Candle Keep though so you wouldn't be able to complete the rest of the game.

 

As for Planescape: Torment, going on a mad killing spree attracts the attention of the Lady of Pain. If you've already been mazed she'll simply destroy you with her shadow. Game Ends. Good to see the little video of it at least once.

 

Lothar can't be killed. If you attack him he taps you with his staff and you drop. He can perma kill you though dialogue when you first meet him. Other than him I think everyone else is killable. Ravel is semi-killable since you drop her but she doesn't really die until after the fact...

[Aegeri]

Lothar is the equivalent of an epic level mage though, so I'm hardly surprised he is unkillable.

 

I think everyone else is expendable however. It has been a while since I played it slaughtering everyone left, right and center though.

 

Good times.