Too much whining about gameplay?

[Atheosis]

"complain the game lacks x mechanic from IE Games"

 

Considering the game was pimped on the basis of the IE that's a rather valid complaint.

 

Feels like an IE game to me.  I don't know what other people are playing...

[Volourn]

The feels, MAN, the feels!

[Daemonjax]

• "Group stealth doesn't allow me to backstab" (a clear signal they haven't read the manual and don't know that sneak attack has nothing to do with being stealthy"

 

There is a rogue Backstab talent that's separate from their ability to sneak attack...  and it is a garbage talent, mostly due to party stealth mechanics (but not only that).

 

"Infuriated"? 

 

Really?

 

I would recommend to try not to get annoyed by the internet so much.  Why does criticism of a video game infuriate you?

Edited April 8, 2015 by Daemonjax

[eRe4s3r]

I'm aware of the irony of making kind of a rant thread about others' whining, but

 

That but inverts what you said before. That said, no it doesn't bother me. Just as your topic doesn't bother me...

 

People buy (or backed) this game, they play it, they have opinions and they voice them (or they don't). That is the process and you won't ever (as in, can not) change it. Why would people not be be allowed to voice their opinion about something they bought? Are they doing it a bit naggingly? Sure.. maybe.. but that is part of the normal process of debating on the web, it is not annoying.

 

You should realize that people here have bought a game and they have what they perceive as unique opinions. They try to coalesce into topics that match their opinions. Nobody is forcing you to read what they write (beyond the thread title).

 

Summary being, there is no greater irony than a thread "whining" about threads that are "whining". And that is ok too. Because that is your opinion And I read it because I wanted to read it. Which leaves me at the end of my post, and the realization that you can not ever expect everyone to like a game. And you can never expect everyone to be helpful on a forum ;p

[Bryy]

Does somebody else feel a bit infuriated by the amount of people (specially people with less than 20 posts or so) who makes threads and posts just to complain about their subjective dislike of game systems?

... that's literally what forums are for.

[yaggaz]

Yeah let's ban everybody that has feedback or complaints. Only threads that YOU like should be allowed right?

 

Whining about whining.

[Stun]

I'm not talking about bugs complains, those are legitimate

As opposed to design complaints, which aren't? Is that what you're trying to say?

 

PoE is not some sacred entity above criticism. It does some things exceptionally well, but it also does a lot of things really badly, illogically, inelegantly, stupidly, lazily. And this is despite the fact that its developers have had the luxury of 5 ancient, namedropped classics to look back on and take influence from, as well as an entire community's worth of backers who gave them valuable advice and insight for 6 straight months by test driving their beta.

 

 

Actually, I see design complaints as more legitimate than bug complaints. At least bugs come with the territory. There will never be a bug-free release. And bugs are an unintentional thing that can be fixed relatively quickly. Design flaws, on the other hand, are a completely different beast. They define the game. And sometimes ugly things like Ego, Pride and misguided gaming philosophy enter into the equation and result in the design not being altered in the slightest, even though a bad design can ruin a gaming experience far more drastically than any bug.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Stun

[pstone]

...

All of the above makes reading the forums kind of a saddening experience for me (I get over it obviously, I'm not literally shedding tears)

 

So, opinions? Am I right, am I exaggerating? What do you think?

 

Hm, i'm kinda surprised about you being saddened or surpised about this. No matter how good a game, there are always people who hate this or that with the power of a thousand suns, or extortionsts ("If you don't change/implement this or that minor quibble, i'll never buy a game from <Publisher> again") etc.. Especially if it's a new IP where players projected all their diverging wishes and someone just HAS to be disappointed. Also there are many questions that don't have a clear, objective answer, but are often a matter of taste, e.g. is limited rest a good design decision (some love it, some hate it, some want it changed to be even stricter, some confuse their opinion on it with fact etc.),

 

I think it would be sad if a good game had predominantly bad reactions, but most reviews, customer/player ratings etc. are good to great.

Edited April 8, 2015 by pstone

[Atheosis]

 

...

All of the above makes reading the forums kind of a saddening experience for me (I get over it obviously, I'm not literally shedding tears)

 

So, opinions? Am I right, am I exaggerating? What do you think?

 

Hm, i'm kinda surprised about you being saddened or surpised about this. No matter how good a game, there are always people who hate this or that with power of a thousand suns, or extortionsts ("If you don't change/implement this or that minor quibble, i'll never buy a game from <Publisher> again") etc.. Especially if it's a new IP where players projected all their diverging wishes and someone just HAS to be disappointed. Also there are many questions that don't have a clear, objective answer, but are often a matter of taste, e.g. is limited rest a design decision (some love it, some hate it, some want it changed to be even stricter, some confuse their opinion on it with fact etc.),

 

I think it would be sad if a good game had predominantly bad reactions, but most reviews, customer/player ratings etc. are good to great.

 

 

Yep.  The game has some clear balance issues, but overall is still the best CRPG I've played in a decade.  I'm really looking forward to Obsidian's future improvements and hopefully a thriving mod community.  I just wish modding was a lot easier--they didn't really make the game as modder-friendly as I was hoping for.

[pedroantonio]

It seems that maybe my lack of english skills has made it difficult for me to explain myself clearly and therefore for some people to understand my point.

I'm not against criticizing gameplay systems in itself, but, as my original post states, against criticizing them because you just don't like them at a gut level, or because they are dissimilar the systems on previous games you have played and you don't want to make the effort to learn them.
I am however, totally supporting of criticizing a certain gameplay by using arguments and proofs.

But that's not the kind of critics that I found saddening to read, the attitude I was referring to is the attitude of somebody who starts complaining about a certain system without giving no reasons beyond "I don't like it", "doesn't feel fun", "it's not like in the IE games", etc, and specially when that is done in the techsupport forum, which shouldn't be a place to voice opinions, but facts.

What was bothering me is the people who feel entitled to ask for changes in a product because they are not having fun or they just don't like it: a boring thing for one player is a fun one for another, therefore asking for changes in the game just because feelings is in my opinion always arbitrary and useless. It's not the criticizing in itself as an action that bothers me, is the entitlement behind that action, which somehow, the complainers seem to think excuses them of having to give objective, factual reasons about why a system is flawed and it needs to be changed; I find that entitlement immensely rude.

That was, more or less, my point; the source of my discomfort was more the attitude with which those kind of threads and posts are made than the threads and posts in themselves. I apologize to everybody for not having been able to explain myself in a clearer manner.

 

[vilverin]

What was bothering me is the people who feel entitled to ask for changes in a product because they are not having fun or they just don't like it: a boring thing for one player is a fun one for another, therefore asking for changes in the game just because feelings is in my opinion always arbitrary and useless.

Well criticism is always subjective, and if those who are not having fun with the game voice their concerns, it's an opportunity for Obsidian to improve.

 

 

It's not the criticizing in itself as an action that bothers me, is the entitlement behind that action, which somehow, the complainers seem to think excuses them of having to give objective, factual reasons about why a system is flawed and it needs to be changed; I find that entitlement immensely rude.

 

I'm fully with you on that one... but well, welcome to the internet. Not much you can do

[Seeders]

I haven't read this thread, but I just want to point out that the only reason a lot of players will come to forums is to voice their opinion about something they don't like in hopes the developers will read it and make a change.

 

If you do like this game, don't worry about people saying they don't like this or that or that they are quitting.  The game has been a massive success and it isn't going anywhere.  We will get our expansions

[pstone]

That was, more or less, my point; the source of my discomfort was more the attitude with which those kind of threads and posts are made than the threads and posts in themselves. I apologize to everybody for not having been able to explain myself in a clearer manner.

 

yeah, well i think this feeling of entitlement, confusing personal opinion with universal fact, failure to provide proof/arguments etc. is just an unfortunate part of communicating (esp. on the net). I just don't think the obsidian forums are worse in that regard than other forums, actually i think they are better than many. Also, i think many just need to vent a bit sometimes (myself included) and are quite reasonable after that...

Edited April 8, 2015 by pstone

[pedroantonio]

Well criticism is always subjective, and if those who are not having fun with the game voice their concerns, it's an opportunity for Obsidian to improve.

 

 

No, not always. When a criticism is backed by measurements, statistics and proofs, it is objective. When it's backed by feelings, it's subjective.

 

An example would be, let's say, a workload control software that gets installed in a company. The objective of the software is finding how much real work any given employee does per week.

 

Then let's say that one employee finds a flaw in the way the calculations of the hours are made, and realizes the system is not fulfulling its objectives; then he makes several tests to be sure his observations are not casual, and presents those tests as proof, with certain suggestions to improve/fix the system.

 

That's objective criticism.

 

Then there's another employee who keeps sending emails all day, in which he repeats again and again that the system is flawed, because the previous system was "better" and this one "doesn't work", and it's "unecessarily complicated"; and he keeps saying all of that without giving even one piece of verifiable data proving why he thinks that. Maybe he only criticizes the system because he doesn't want to learn to use it (and maybe because he doesn't know how to cheat the new system to hide the time he wastes browsing the internet).

 

That's subjective criticism.

Edited April 8, 2015 by pedroantonio

[Bhazor]

I just wish they'd stick to one damn thread. The front page of general right now has 7 seperate threads dedicated to haters.

[pstone]

 

Well criticism is always subjective, and if those who are not having fun with the game voice their concerns, it's an opportunity for Obsidian to improve.

 

 

No, not always. When a criticism is backed by measurements, statistics and proofs, it is objective. When it's backed by feelings, it's subjective.

 

Ah, but usually there is lots of bias, even in seemingly objective arguments. E.g. in your example, how do you define "real work", how do you quantify (just the hours, efficiency only, goal oriented etc), what do you measure, what do you prioritize etc., How does your world-view, morals, personal agenda influence that? Etc.

 

I do agree it's a far more enjoyable experience to discuss with good arguments and counterarguments, but i think it's more an ideal one tries to approach. So if someone says "I'm complely objective", i'm somewhat doubtful...

[AncientToaster]

Sorry, but if I have criticisms of the game I'm going to voice them.

 

I paid $60.00 for this game on Steam, and it's not 100% satisfying to me. Most of it has been constructive rather than blatant trolling anyway.

 

It's like going to a restaurant and paying for an expensive meal and receiving poorly cooked food. Some people will eat it and just move on with their lives, and some will voice their complaints to the chef or demand a refund.

 

Don't knock people for voicing their concerns. 

[Seeders]

Ya, I'm with the "haters" on this one.  If you don't like the game, this is the perfect place to say so and why.  Unless your claims are baseless and you start spamming, I don't see a problem.  Also, just because someone else has made a negative thread, doesn't mean you can't make your own if it is a separate issue.

[Prime-Mover]

 

Well criticism is always subjective, and if those who are not having fun with the game voice their concerns, it's an opportunity for Obsidian to improve.

 

 

No, not always. When a criticism is backed by measurements, statistics and proofs, it is objective. When it's backed by feelings, it's subjective.

 

An example would be, let's say, a workload control software that gets installed in a company. The objective of the software is finding how much real work any given employee does per week.

 

Then let's say that one employee finds a flaw in the way the calculations of the hours are made, and realizes the system is not fulfulling its objectives; then he makes several tests to be sure his observations are not casual, and presents those tests as proof, with certain suggestions to improve/fix the system.

 

That's objective criticism.

 

Then there's another employee who keeps sending emails all day, in which he repeats again and again that the system is flawed, because the previous system was "better" and this one "doesn't work", and it's "unecessarily complicated"; and he keeps saying all of that without giving even one piece of verifiable data proving why he thinks that. Maybe he only criticizes the system because he doesn't want to learn to use it (and maybe because he doesn't know how to cheat the new system to hide the time he wastes browsing the internet).

 

That's subjective criticism.

 

I don't agree with this objective/subjective criticism distinction here. Surely criticism can be objective, even if it's not backed by empirical evidence. Often gut feeling and intuition is right on the money. Intuitions can e.g. be picking up on objectively good or bad features of the game. And evidence can be flawed, and thus contradict objective fact. And in an informal discussion board setting such as this, empirical evidence is just really too much to ask for most of the time. So it's rather a matter of trying to voice our intuitions, and hopefully provide reasons for why they reflect the objective state of the world.

 

That aside, I agree that many of the posts in here lack basic humility. Some dude will make a short post, making some objective conclusion, like "this game sucks because feature x", and stating it as objective fact, rather than personal preference. Showing no signs of even considering that whatever he considers a failure of design, is really just PEBCAK.

[vilverin]

No, not always. When a criticism is backed by measurements, statistics and proofs, it is objective. When it's backed by feelings, it's subjective.

No serious statistician will claim that statistics are objective... A whole lot of subjectivity goes into the problem framing, choosing the data to be analyzed, choosing the statistical models, choosing the quality criteria of the assessment, and so on. Numbers are often used to back otherwise weak arguments. "Lies, damned lies, and statistics"...

Edited April 8, 2015 by vilverin

[Rapscallion]

 

No, not always. When a criticism is backed by measurements, statistics and proofs, it is objective. When it's backed by feelings, it's subjective.

No serious statistician will claim that statistics are objective... A whole lot of subjectivity goes into the problem framing, choosing the data to be analyzed, choosing the statistical models, choosing the quality criteria of the assessment, and so on. Numbers are often used to back otherwise weak arguments. "Lies, damned lies, and statistics"...

 

 

This. You also seem to be confusing the word criticism with analysis.

 

One other comment on your post Pedro: I think stating that some feature is not fun is a valid complaint. The stronghold in PoE is just not fun for me at all. It serves very little purpose outside of offering the player a sense of progression and I think it fails to do even that.

 

I pour money into it, it offers me a button to click every half hour or so, returns some money occasionally. Since I have amassed an in-game fortune I'll likely never spend, the money is a non-issue, which leaves the management/progression side as the primary mechanic. As stated by others, it requires no thought or effort and provides minimal benefit in terms of story, immersion or reward.