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Stupid faction choice in Defiance Bay!

faction defiance bay quest

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#41
TearsOfWar1

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Have you tried not posting spoilers in the non-spoiler forum?

 

Spoiler

This forum has a "(Spoiler Warning!)" at the end of it, so I am sure you can post spoilers on this. 



#42
Smorensky

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Well the way I see it, it does make sense that doing several jobs for one faction would create a problem with the other two. The explanation is in the lore. When you enter Defiance Bay the narator tells you that the city is basically a powder cag ready to blow any second. As you run around the city you find out about several prominent factions that all hold a certain measure of influence in the royal court. To make matters worse, all three factions are at odds. Add Legacy and Hollowborn on top of it and you do really have a powder cag ready to blow up as soon as someone farths...

So when any of the factions notice that you are having a bit too much contact with the other group, they will simply stop trusting you (or at least their leaders will). You may be a decent guy in their book, but the fact that the other group is willing to entroust you with a very important job warrants some suspicion. After all they can never be completely sure if you have a hidden agenda. And checking that information will take some time, time you don't have at that point in the game.

And as far as "simple fetch" quests go, think about it like this, getting weapons for someone is not a simple fetch quest... Immagine a situation where an ex cop, who is still well respected in the department, is suddenly seen brokering a weapons deal for the Italian mafia.
So he takes on the job of delivering a weapon shipment to the crime syndicate and then decides to go into the FBI building and ask them to arrange a meeting with the president...
His reputation is still good with his former colegues, so they don't arest him on the spot, but they tell him that meeting the president will have to wait untill he's clear of suspicion.
He then tells them he is willing to give them the details about the weapon shipment and that he is on their side all the way... And they thank him and say yes we understand, but you are still under investigation...
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#43
Rosbjerg

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^ Excellent point, none of the other factions would dare openly associate themselves with someone like you, after you clearly tried to arm one of the contenders - even agreeing to.. The  Dozen's leader openly admits afterwards that he tipped off the patrol, so the Knights know that you went for the weapons. **** move, but that clearly marks you as playing favorites in a very hostile political atmosphere, even if your hand was being tipped for you.

 

That decision quite literally helped kill people on all sides, as you are throwing tinder into the fire.



#44
Smorensky

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Well in most cases the text is pretty explicit. The Doemenels tell you right up front that the job is both illegal and dangerous and that accepting it will prevent any further interactions with Knights and Dozens. The crucible knights are not that explicit, but they tell you, you will probably have to cross swords with other factions (and providing CK with an army of golems would defenetly put you on the Dozens' bad side, even without their views on animancy).

The only thing I mind about this is the fact that the main quests for all three factions are rather short. If you had to do 3 or 4 jobs instead of just 2, that would be great. As it is right now I understand why some ppl find it frustrating.

#45
Varana

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I think that the main issue here is the Dozens quest, which is by no means explicit.

Regarding your earlier post: The alternative view, though, is that the Dozens do provide you with access to the President even if they know perfectly well that you just went to their enemies and tried to betray them.
"You talked to the Dozens, now we don't trust you any more" is nice, if it weren't in complete contrast to how the Dozens continued to trust you with representing their side in front of the Duc in spite of you trying to talk to the Knights.
In my game, I went with the Dozens out of necessity and completely betrayed their interests in the animancy hearing. If anyone had paid attention, that would've come as no surprise to anyone. But since the game shoehorned me into their side and didn't let go, that was what followed.

Maybe the fallback access from Lady Webb should be made more accessible, or, well, Wenan could state his intentions a little bit more explicit.

#46
Cragnous

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From the Guide:

 

If you want to complete as many side quests as possible without choosing sides,
you can complete each of the three factions’ fi rst side quests before siding with
any one faction. So that means you can complete “Built to Last,” “Two Story
Job,” and “Rogue Knight.” However, you can complete only one of the following
side quests: “Winds of Steel,” “Changing of the Guard,” and “Bronze Beneath the
Lake.” Choosing one means you are siding with a particular faction.


#47
drayath

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Added my irritation too this thread too.

 

Without any reading up before hand have been doublecrossing the Domeals at ever oppertunity (accept quest, help target which usally involes murding some domeals E.g. Inital merchent quest, dyford village)

 

Accepted the second faction quest to find out what they are trying to achieve (assasignation and war), and headed over to the knights/dozens to let them know what the domeals are up to and offer to help defeat them. But unlike most other quest there seems to be no-one in either faction intrested in even talking about it. Surly someone in the factions of which hate the domeals would love details of an assasination plot and work with me to get ironclad proof to help break House Dommeal.

 

So now stuck supporting House Domeal (who think i an a Terror :) ), appartly even if i finish off the remaing survivors in their main house.



#48
Bugged Wolf Companion

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This could easily be solved by a bracket behind the dialogue which displays your alliance once choose and accept the quest

 

Are we so adverse to thinking for ourselves, that we need to be spoon fed and outlined the consequences of choices? What happened with just rolling with it, your character made a blunder... why does that ruin your game experience? :shrugs:

 

Of course I understand that you guys are angry with the fact that you feel cheated by the game (which is a ****ty feeling), I just don't see why you feel that way.

 

there is an expert tag that doesnt spoon fed those that dont wish to

 

in my next playthrough i will know.

 

However on my first game I planned from the beginning to join the knights, i dont know how you cant see why so many people feel upset about it. (especially on first playthrough)



#49
pi2repsion

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This could easily be solved by a bracket behind the dialogue which displays your alliance once choose and accept the quest

 

Are we so adverse to thinking for ourselves, that we need to be spoon fed and outlined the consequences of choices? What happened with just rolling with it, your character made a blunder... why does that ruin your game experience? :shrugs:

 

Of course I understand that you guys are angry with the fact that you feel cheated by the game (which is a ****ty feeling), I just don't see why you feel that way.

 

there is an expert tag that doesnt spoon fed those that dont wish to

 

in my next playthrough i will know.

 

However on my first game I planned from the beginning to join the knights, i dont know how you cant see why so many people feel upset about it. (especially on first playthrough)

 

So, you were spoiled enough concerning the game's story that you planned from the beginning to join a specific faction in the Defiance Bay conflict that you wouldn't hear about in-game before act 2, but not spoiled enough that you knew which steps to take... and somehow this is a problem, because you were able to take steps that prevented you from reaching your goal without warning you as you were taking them?

 

If I heard about some nice artifact or companion in the game before playing and thought it would be great to have only to discover that actions I've taken in-game preclude me from getting what I want, I don't consider that to be a problem with the game or something to be upset about, as I have no expectation that the game will confirm to my desires in such respects by handing me what I want, and I'm struggling to see what the difference is here.

 

I mean, I get that you are upset, for you say so and I have no reason to doubt you, but I'm really struggling to see why.

 

 

Leaving aside that issue, while the player may consider this joining a faction, the game is very clear that the main character is not, in fact, choosing to join any faction - the main character operates as a free agent, gets a reputation with the various factions, and it is not a question of whom he wants to join but about what they are willing to entrust him with as part of their power struggle based on his actions for them and for their opponents. This then, in the story, leads to the main character to ask those that are likeliest to grant him a favour when he desperately wants to be invited to the ducal audience.

 

To put it bluntly, if the main character (operated by the player) strongly favours one faction, the rational thing for him to do would be to support that faction, not strengthen the other factions and then wonder why his favourite faction isn't willing to trust him with the hard stuff.


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#50
Epsilon Rose

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From the Guide:

 

If you want to complete as many side quests as possible without choosing sides,
you can complete each of the three factions’ fi rst side quests before siding with
any one faction. So that means you can complete “Built to Last,” “Two Story
Job,” and “Rogue Knight.” However, you can complete only one of the following
side quests: “Winds of Steel,” “Changing of the Guard,” and “Bronze Beneath the
Lake.” Choosing one means you are siding with a particular faction.

 

A) You should not have to read the manual, which is not part of the game, to find in game information that should be available in game and could very easily be made available.

B) You shouldn't have to look for spoilers to figure out a quest locks you into a faction, regardless of if those spoilers come from a forum or the game's own manual.



#51
Varana

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Edit: @pi2repsion
But the point is - for the umpteenth time wink.png - that that is not what happens.
All my actions in Defiance Bay - from what I said about animancy to what I did in the various quests involving it to my reputation screen (I mean, what that's even for if not for showing, like, reputation?) cry out loud that I favour the view of faction X. However because I accepted (not even completed) a certain quest all those other indicators play no role at all and this one faction trusts me with arguing their side even if I consistently acted otherwise? Please.

Edited by Varana, 13 April 2015 - 12:03 PM.


#52
Bugged Wolf Companion

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So, you were spoiled enough concerning the game's story that you planned from the beginning to join a specific faction in the Defiance Bay conflict that you wouldn't hear about in-game before act 2, but not spoiled enough that you knew which steps to take... and somehow this is a problem, because you were able to take steps that prevented you from reaching your goal without warning you as you were taking them?

 

If I heard about some nice artifact or companion in the game before playing and thought it would be great to have only to discover that actions I've taken in-game preclude me from getting what I want, I don't consider that to be a problem with the game or something to be upset about, as I have no expectation that the game will confirm to my desires in such respects by handing me what I want, and I'm struggling to see what the difference is here.

 

I mean, I get that you are upset, for you say so and I have no reason to doubt you, but I'm really struggling to see why.

 

 

Leaving aside that issue, while the player may consider this joining a faction, the game is very clear that the main character is not, in fact, choosing to join any faction - the main character operates as a free agent, gets a reputation with the various factions, and it is not a question of whom he wants to join but about what they are willing to entrust him with as part of their power struggle based on his actions for them and for their opponents. This then, in the story, leads to the main character to ask those that are likeliest to grant him a favour when he desperately wants to be invited to the ducal audience.

 

To put it bluntly, if the main character (operated by the player) strongly favours one faction, the rational thing for him to do would be to support that faction, not strengthen the other factions and then wonder why his favourite faction isn't willing to trust him with the hard stuff.

i wasnt spoiled at all i just liked to join the knights regardless of the other factions or future rewards which i had no clue about if that was your post about (not sure).

 

Anyways its not that big of a deal an easy bracket block would have solved this issue as i mentioned before. For those who dont like those tool tips there is expert mode i dont see a problem at all.

 

Aditionally i dont see it that dramatically to write an essay back so enjoy.



#53
vezon

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I thought it was perfectly clear - I refused the quest from the crucible knight because he downright said - this'll make you unpopular with the 2 other factions.. The dozen said the same when I took their quest.

 

Are people not reading the text or what? The quest givers make it obvious that you can't side with the others afterwards. It's extremely blatant. 

 

I don't know what was so clear for u guys, but I can assure the faction choice was done really poorly.

First of all I knew that I can side with only ONE faction, but that didn't stop me trying to finish as much quests as I could for all of them. (minus Doemenel where I did exact the opposite from the start). Anyway I did 2 quest for Dozens and 2 for the Knights. And yes at the second one it tells u that the others will not like it, but guess what? They didn't care. The reputation was not affected with the other  factions (btw the "show reputation/personality" option is checked). But after awhile I realized that I'm sided with one, guess how? I found a NEW TALENT. And not when I joined them. If u can point me where they say u are now or will get membership I will gladly take my words back.

2nd. Are there any more quest given from the faction u joined?



#54
Rosbjerg

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First of all I knew that I can side with only ONE faction, but that didn't stop me trying to finish as much quests as I could for all of them.

 

And that's really the crux of the issue - we've become so used to being able to do everything and see everything that when we are presented with a limitation it's so "out of character" of a game that it pisses people off.

 

Interesting actually. Of course this is against the normal tropes, but then Obsidian has always tried to do that - and as evident, to greater or lesser success.



#55
Hiro Protagonist II

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I thought it was pretty obvious that if you help one faction and step on the toes of another, it's going to lock you into that faction and the other is going to be hostile towards you. Just like Bodhi and the Thieves Guild in BG2. But this time, there's three factions in PoE.



#56
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I thought it was pretty obvious that if you help one faction and step on the toes of another, it's going to lock you into that faction and the other is going to be hostile towards you. Just like Bodhi and the Thieves Guild in BG2. But this time, there's three factions in PoE.

 

Again, I have no problem with it locking you in once you've actually significantly helped a faction. I have a problem with it locking you in once you say you're going to help a faction. The lockout should occur at the end of those quests, once you've actually done what the faction in question wants, not at the beginning. Why can't I, once I've been asked by the Dozens to go fetch some ancient weapons, go straight over to the knights, tell them what the Dozens are up to?


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#57
Smorensky

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We can argue forever on this, some ppl find the faction choices annoying others find them ok. But the main reason this thread exists is because of a rather annoying bug.

As the developer said, there was a bug allowing you to pick up BOTH FACTION QUESTS, for knights and dozens at the same time, effectively preventing you from being invited by both sides.

As it was stated before, the quests in question are Winds Of Steel and Bronze Beneath The Lake, those 2 quests were supposed to be mutually exclusive, meaning if you pick up one you can't get take the other. The bug allowed you to pick up both.

That was the only real issue here. This bug was fixed with the last patch for all new plythroughs, but unfortunatelly the fix is not retroactive, meaning you would have to reload an earlier save or start a new game.

As far as the choices go, I find that The Doemenels quest Changing Of The Guard is the most annoying and uninventive as far as all three go. Someone from the dev team should rly check it out and change the location where it happens completely, because atm that quest is just stupid as hell...

#58
Matt_K

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Like many of you I've also 'accidentally joined the Dozens' in my current (first) playthrough. I agree with some of you that this is slightly illogical even in a game where our choices can have unforeseen and potentially unwanted consequences (which I really applaud Obsidian for doing). I've been playing cRPGs since the 90s and I've always believed myself to be an attentive reader when it came to quests and such. However here, as a person who knew very little about the game before I started (I only read a couple pages of the Collector's Book to learn a few basic facts about the setting, but other than that I knew almost nothing about the story of the game. As such, I didn't even know there would be factions to choose from in Defiance Bay NOR what those factions would be. I entered the city, exploring around Copperlane and as many of you stumbled upon the Adventure Hall, which I assumed was a neutral establishment where the Dozens hang out (and NOT the HQ of the Dozens). So when I got the first job from Wenan I assumed it was just another contract and I glossed over the fact (yes, I'll admit it) that he warns me (rather subtly) that it may affect my standing with them. I didn't do the quest, simply continued exploring the city. Not until MANY HOURS LATER did I realize that accepting that contract was essentially joining / allying closely with the Dozens (that, the conversation does NOT imply).

Anyway, I was frustrated by this fact as by then I discovered and learned more about the other factions and decided I wish to join House Doemenel. I completed their first tasks and was about to receive the quest from their leader when he said: 'Nope, sorry you're too close with the Dozens'. I was shocked... I haven't done anything for them save the armor quest for Osric. This frustrated me and to be honest (if a bit overzealous) it kinda ruined my playthrough. I resented the fact that I accidentally robbed myself of the choice of faction in the game. As I was MANY hours ahead of entering the city, reloading seemed like too much of a sacrifice so I searched the internet for ANY way to 'leave the Dozen'. Either by removing the Bronze Beneath the Lake quest or changing faction reputations. I played around with console commands (to no avail), tried killing all members of the Dozens- nothing.

Then somewhere on one of the forums someone mentioned altering the .conversation game files but never elaborated on what to change (and he was talking about it from the Knights perspective). That person (whose username escapes me) mentioned only 'ExpressionComponents'. With that knowledge I embarked on my last ditch desperate attempt to 'fix' my problem and save my immersion in the game (call me petty, but I could not stomach being associated with the Dozens). I analyzed Gedmar's conversation file and after a few hours I found what I was looking for. Good news- it WORKS. After this change I successfully managed to trigger the Changing of the Guard quest in my playthrough, even though I had Bronze Beneath the Lake. I decided to share it with the community, since I'm sure many- like me, are really pissed about being accidental Dozens loyalists.

*BE WARNED! * What I am about to describe involves editing the game files. It may bug your game/saves or lead to unforeseen circumstances. *ATTEMPT AT YOUR OWN RISK*

How to trigger the Changing of the Guard quest (while having either Bronze Beneath the Lake and/or Winds of Steel active):

1. Find the '04_cv_edmar_doemenel.conversation' file (found in the Pillars of eternity folder \ PillarsOfEternity_data \ conversations \ 04_defiance_bay_brackenbury).
2. Make a backup copy of the file in case something goes wrong.
3. Open it using Notepad.
4. Search the document for: <string>n_MercenaryHire_State</string>
5. Below that line you should see:

<string>GreaterThan</string>
                <string>0</string>

Change <string>0</string>'= to <string>1</string>

What this does is it eliminates the restriction for this quest being open to you if you ACCEPTED the Bronze Beneath the Lake quest. If the String is 0- you don't have the quest, if the string is 1- you do. So if the condition is set to 'Greater than 1' then just having the quest won't impact the availability of the Doemenel Quest.

(IF you instead have the Winds of Steel quest for the Knights the procedure is the same but you have to search the document for: <string>n_Clyver_Quest_Stage</string> )
6. Save the file.

*ADDITIONAL WARNING* I have no idea how this may influence the later quests related to the hearings as honestly I haven't reached that point yet. As such I suggest either doing everything else and leaving these two quests for last (which is what I intend to do) and testing it fully then. In that way if it messes you up and leaves you with being unable to be sponsored, you can revert to an earlier save without losing too much progress.

If someone else tries this before me and it causes no conflicts down the line- let us know! =P

 


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#59
DeathQuaker

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I thought it was pretty obvious that if you help one faction and step on the toes of another, it's going to lock you into that faction and the other is going to be hostile towards you. Just like Bodhi and the Thieves Guild in BG2. But this time, there's three factions in PoE.

 

What makes it NOT obvious are two factors:

1. The reputation system. If you're unspoiled and thus unaware you are ostensibly SIDING with a particular faction to angle for an invitation, hearing them say "X and Y Factions won't be pleased," can lead you to make a very logical conclusion that all you're being warned about is a REPUTATION LOSS, NOT a quest lockout. Moreover, since you can play the game so that you have reasonably good reputation with ALL THREE factions, you could equally logically decide taking the quest would probably not lower your rep enough to lose friendship with a given faction. (Even after the hearings, my rep with the Crucible Knights is pretty much equal to my rep with the Dozens.)

 

2. You perform the necessary quests to get the invitation before you have any idea you need an invitation. Moreover, the quests involved are pretty banal fetch quests that don't seem plot-important on their own, and have absolutely nothing to do, directly, with getting into the duc's palace. If the quests were, say, "Assassinate the Head of House Doemenel" rather than, "Find some rusty useless weapons," that might help make the matter clearer.

 

A VERY EASY FIX for this: Keep all three faction quests locked, completely unavailable, UNTIL you talk to Lady Webb and she tells you you need an invitation to the Duc's Palace. Then when that conversation occurs, you could add a single line of dialogue from Lady Webb that says something along the lines of, "Each faction will probably want you to do a favor for them to prove your loyalty before they name you a delegate; bear in mind if you do this favor for one faction, the others will surely withdraw interest in naming you a delegate." Word it so it's clear "if you do this you don't get an invitation," not "if you do this they won't like you," which, again, suggests rep loss, not quest lockout.

 

And I think the Bodhi/Thieves Guild comparison is flawed for a simple reason: Bodhi and the Thieves Guild are the only major influencable factions in BG2, and IIRC there's no faction reputation system in BG2 the way there is in POE (IIRC BG2 had universal reputation but not faction rep) -- and in POE there's also town reputations and other group factions as well, and it isn't apparent any given one allows (or not) access (or not) to key plot quests. POE in terms of factions is more like Fallout: New Vegas (which in many ways sets the standard of what to expect from present-day Obsidian) ---- and I think a KEY issue here is that as far as factions go, many unspoiled players get the sense that the Dozens, Crucible Knights, and House Doemenel are like, say, the Chairmen, the White Glove Society, and the Omertas, when they are in fact more like, say, The NCR, Mr. House, and the Legion ---- in other words, they feel like lesser factions who add flavor to the city and you can befriend or destroy in whatever combination you like and this just more minorly affects the game's outcomes, when they are actually more plot-important groups whom you must pick at one point at the cost of losing the opportunity to support the other. (Though in fairness, I don't think they are as majorly plot crucial as the New Vegas comparisons.)

 

All this said, I haven't hit the endgame yet, but it seems like all this does is set up how you get into the hearings, and I haven't seen any other consequences yet. It's annoying, but doesn't seem dire or game breaking either. Am I wrong?


Edited by DeathQuaker, 17 April 2015 - 01:11 PM.

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#60
Varana

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It changes some ending slides. That's all.





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