Let's talk class balance....

[Sanctuary]

Eh, just going to repost this in the Ranger specific thread.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Sanctuary

[Sanctuary]

Double; meant to delete the above actually.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Sanctuary

[Sanctuary]

In 1.05  Ciphers start with 1/4th focus instead of 1/2 and Soul Shock's radius is cut in half--although I'm not sure how much of a difference that makes if it's being used on your tank anyway.  Fan of Flames got nerfed (no biggie really), but Malignant Cloud was buffed, and Death Ring was made foe only.  Which is smart since it was ridiculous to even consider using before.

Hey, Rangers got a buff too!  They will now actually be able to do 0.5s more of damage per fight!

 

[dudex]

dont got 1.05 but how does marked prey work now?  Does it add a flat 20 damage?

[mazeltov]

Someone (else) should probably make a thread about the 1.05 patch notes, so we can start in on those. People are already reporting undocumented fixes/nerfs as well, e.g. to Petrify.

[Kilrach]

Not sure why the ranged rogue is getting so much hate. This is my first playthrough and my main is wrecking pretty much everyone on PotD (supported by priest buffs on harder encounters) and I only have average gear. I'm barely into Act 2 and lvl 8 for Endless Paths (which I think is maybe 50% of the game?) - these are my stats so far:

 

 

Note that I just completed Raedric's Hold the sneaky way through clearing the dungeons and only dropping a handful of his guards. I'd be racking up a lot more damage if I went ahead and took everyone out. Also, disregard the highest single target damage as it doesn't represent the kind of damage I deal on average - I had just gotten Finishing Blow at lvl 9 and planned on using all my per rest skills before I rested for the last couple of fights. The only one time I use it was a critical sneak attack hence the number.

[SilchasRuin]

Stats only matter in context, and anything remotely optimized will look amazing compared to the very poorly optimized standard companions. The problem with ranged rogue is in comparison with other optimized characters, such as melee rogue and nuker wizard/druid.

[Kilrach]

I'd argue that stats IS the only context that matters. The whole melee rogue schtick that has been theorycrafted far too many times with NO context. Why? Because it is what happens in the field that counts. Intangible weaknesses of the melee rogue like not being able to burst down key ranged targets immediately or having to kite around resulting in a loss of dps, can only be translated from in-game stats as overall contribution. "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted."

 

If you want to talk about gear optimization, I have already stated that I have average gear having only progressed so far. In fact, Eder has the best equipment but there's no point comparing because each character serves a different role. As for attributes optimization, sure I'm min/maxed but I still have 3 CON so I have my own set of challenges.

 

If you want to compare with melee rogues or nukers, I say bring out their stats. I'm not saying my build or ranged rogues destroy everyone else but they are certainly not as terrible as the last few pages have made them out to be. As a final note, I would say only ranged rogues (maybe rangers too) are the only sustained burst in the game, having the best of both worlds. Why do I say sustained? Priest buffs. They'd still be dishing out fantastic damage even after nukers have used up their spells, sustaining dps not only for individual fights, and also being able to handle more fights before the need to rest.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Kilrach

[peddroelm]

dont got 1.05 but how does marked prey work now?  Does it add a flat 20 damage?

nope .. Works as before 40% lash vs 25% DR  but it no longer takes 5 millennia to activate which means most people might actually  cast this every fight (shockingly)..

Edited May 1, 2015 by peddroelm

[Sanctuary]

I'd argue that stats IS the only context that matters. The whole melee rogue schtick that has been theorycrafted far too many times with NO context. Why? Because it is what happens in the field that counts. Intangible weaknesses of the melee rogue like not being able to burst down key ranged targets immediately or having to kite around resulting in a loss of dps, can only be translated from in-game stats as overall contribution. "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted."

 

If you want to talk about gear optimization, I have already stated that I have average gear having only progressed so far. In fact, Eder has the best equipment but there's no point comparing because each character serves a different role. As for attributes optimization, sure I'm min/maxed but I still have 3 CON so I have my own set of challenges.

 

If you want to compare with melee rogues or nukers, I say bring out their stats. I'm not saying my build or ranged rogues destroy everyone else but they are certainly not as terrible as the last few pages have made them out to be. As a final note, I would say only ranged rogues (maybe rangers too) are the only sustained burst in the game, having the best of both worlds. Why do I say sustained? Priest buffs. They'd still be dishing out fantastic damage even after nukers have used up their spells, sustaining dps not only for individual fights, and also being able to handle more fights before the need to rest.

 

Do you know what I did to rule out gear bias?  When I ended up getting Cloudpiercer for the Rogue, I consoled one in for the Wizard.  I also did the same thing for every enchantment, as well as things like bracers of all-consuming rage or Amulet of the Unconquerable.  You know, so that if one party member ended up with +2 Might and +2 Dex they all did.  This wasn't to make the game easier or anything, it was to make sure everyone was on equal grounds.  My Rogue was in the lead for probably 70% of the game, and then started quickly falling behind near the end.

 

One thing that I still don't know though (and this would change things A LOT) is if the combat log is counting overkill damage, or if it's only counting legitimate damage that was actually done to an enemy.  If something only has 1 endurance left, but you hit it for 98, that's worthless.

 

I also never said that ranged Rogues were "worthless", because it was the only character with a 50%+ crit rate (does Sneak Attack actually count as a crit though?), so their single target damage was pretty strong.  But when you're fighting swarms of enemies at a time, classes with lots of AoE damage matter way more.  I also never took their once per rest tactical nuke type abilities though.  That meant skipping out on other passive buffs that were active full time.

 

I'm also not sure why you seem to think Rangers and Rogues are the only classes that can shoot bows and guns as well as get passives for them.  The Cipher doesn't do as much single target damage as the Rogue, but it doesn't need to.  It can do 60% - 70% as much, while doing 400% as much per encounter.  Wizards also don't run out of sustainable damage either after like level 4 and at level 9 there's no comparison.

 

 

 

dont got 1.05 but how does marked prey work now?  Does it add a flat 20 damage?

nope .. Works as before 40% lash vs 25% DR  but it no longer takes 5 millennia to activate which means most people might actually  cast this every fight (shockingly)..

 

They need to change the tooltip then, because what you're saying it does has absolutely nothing to do with the description.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Sanctuary

[SilchasRuin]

I'd argue that stats IS the only context that matters. The whole melee rogue schtick that has been theorycrafted far too many times with NO context. Why? Because it is what happens in the field that counts. Intangible weaknesses of the melee rogue like not being able to burst down key ranged targets immediately or having to kite around resulting in a loss of dps, can only be translated from in-game stats as overall contribution. "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted."

 

If you want to talk about gear optimization, I have already stated that I have average gear having only progressed so far. In fact, Eder has the best equipment but there's no point comparing because each character serves a different role. As for attributes optimization, sure I'm min/maxed but I still have 3 CON so I have my own set of challenges.

 

If you want to compare with melee rogues or nukers, I say bring out their stats. I'm not saying my build or ranged rogues destroy everyone else but they are certainly not as terrible as the last few pages have made them out to be. As a final note, I would say only ranged rogues (maybe rangers too) are the only sustained burst in the game, having the best of both worlds. Why do I say sustained? Priest buffs. They'd still be dishing out fantastic damage even after nukers have used up their spells, sustaining dps not only for individual fights, and also being able to handle more fights before the need to rest.

Stats are the only context that matters... The stats you see tell very little as they're predominantly based on what your character could do compared to what the rest of your characters could do. Now, it might be possible to approximate a dps number by calcing damage dealt versus time in combat (for your character it's approximately .37 dps, that's per game second by the way, not sure how much each game second equals in real time) but even that has particular limitations,  as whether you were playing on PotD or a lower difficulty would result in different numbers, and there's probably other possibilities that could change how much time you spent in combat other than damage dealt (such as whether the game is more difficult at particular sections). Numbers only matter in context, outside of it no matter how big a number looks it tells nothing.  So simply posting a screen of your character sheet and saying hey look how good this is! Is completely irrelevant.

 

You say it's not as terrible, but the reality is that you have very little you're actually comparing it to. You have the pregen companions, so it may look to you like your ranged rogue is going lots of damage, but if you had a melee rogue in the same party you might see a very different story. When I get back home and can access PoE I'll see about posting stats and calcing relative dps numbers. Ranged rogue and ranger both have terrible sustained damage; their burst is actually where they are strongest at. Priest buffs will affect every party member fairly evenly, and only in the early game is there ever an issue of running out of spells. I've never had to backtrack for camping supplies and after around level 4 I've never had a problem utilizing spells in the majority of encounters. The only time spellcasters don't use spells in when encounters are trivial.

Edited May 1, 2015 by SilchasRuin

[Kilrach]

Do you know what I did to rule out gear bias?  When I ended up getting Cloudpiercer for the Rogue, I consoled one in for the Wizard.  I also did the same thing for every enchantment, as well as things like bracers of all-consuming rage or Amulet of the Unconquerable.  You know, so that if one party member ended up with +2 Might and +2 Dex they all did.  This wasn't to make the game easier or anything, it was to make sure everyone was on equal grounds.  My Rogue was in the lead for probably 70% of the game, and then started quickly falling behind near the end.

 

One thing that I still don't know though (and this would change things A LOT) is if the combat log is counting overkill damage, or if it's only counting legitimate damage that was actually done to an enemy.  If something only has 1 endurance left, but you hit it for 98, that's worthless.

 

I also never said that ranged Rogues were "worthless", because it was the only character with a 50%+ crit rate (does Sneak Attack actually count as a crit though?), so their single target damage was pretty strong.  But when you're fighting swarms of enemies at a time, classes with lots of AoE damage matter way more.  I also never took their once per rest tactical nuke type abilities though.  That meant skipping out on other passive buffs that were active full time.

 

I'm also not sure why you seem to think Rangers and Rogues are the only classes that can shoot bows and guns as well as get passives for them.  The Cipher doesn't do as much single target damage as the Rogue, but it doesn't need to.  It can do 60% - 70% as much, while doing 400% as much per encounter.  Wizards also don't run out of sustainable damage either after like level 4 and at level 9 there's no comparison.

 

 

 

Again, I don't see the point in giving all your companions the same equipment and/or stats bonuses? +2 int wouldn't mean as much to my rogue (or pretty much nothing) as compared to giving it to a spellcaster. A unique weapon would be more effective for a rogue with relevant talents (Marksman, WF etc.) than a wizard without those talents. Not to sound like a broken record but Eder has the best damn gear of the party on top of having WF with his main and secondary weapons, but that doesn't mean anything because he's a tank not a dps (while still boasting an impressive 66 accuracy). My rogue's efficacy has only been improving over time unlike what you described yours to be. You told me your truth and I showed you mine.

 

I don't see counting overkill damage as worthless. If my rogue happen to roll a crit, he crits. It's as simple that that. A lucky roll of dice doesn't mean my damage is not legitimate - that don't make sense. You're just saying that because the mechanic doesn't favor you. If wizards don't have spell restrictions I doubt you'd still be singing the same tune. If the game doesn't agree with overkill damage, then a talent like Bloody Slaughter wouldn't exist now would it?

 

I didn't say you think they were "worthless". Also, I'm not sure if you're playing PotD or not but there is no such thing as overkill. Every damage counts. AOE damage is nice sure, but I'd take AOE debuff over damage any day. There are very few instances where I can use Fan of Flames and Fireball just isn't at good as Expose Vul (I should note that I'm playing with FF on). At lvl 9, Aloth can use lvl 3 spells 5 times. If you had to pick 5 Expose Vul vs 5 Fireballs for 5 different battles - which would you pick? AOE damage from spells is direct and easily discerned. Additional indirect damage from debuffs that the WHOLE party can generate is a lot harder to determine.

 

I haven't picked up my Cipher so I couldn't give a comparison, but the class could very well be more effective than my rogue. I would say now that Wizards with their number of spells restrictions simply don't have the sustainability of a ranged rogue, not to mention a good chunk of those spell resources are used to cast debuffs (at least for me). Sure other classes can be a ranged weapon user as well, but are you gonna pick Marksman, Gunner and WF for their talents? Do they have passive sneak attacks, additional crit rate and naturally high base accuracy? Guess not.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Kilrach

[MadDemiurg]

So, cipher's initial focus has been reduced, the rest unchanged. They are also tankier and now are as tanky as a druid. Melee cipher carrow golan addict it is .

 

Melee wizard looks CRAZY with new changes. 4*endurance health and 12*level endurance? On top of all these buffs? 50% hit to graze? 75 deflection on hardened veil? Weapon ineffective...

[Kilrach]

Stats are the only context that matters... The stats you see tell very little as they're predominantly based on what your character could do compared to what the rest of your characters could do. Now, it might be possible to approximate a dps number by calcing damage dealt versus time in combat (for your character it's approximately .37 dps, that's per game second by the way, not sure how much each game second equals in real time) but even that has particular limitations,  as whether you were playing on PotD or a lower difficulty would result in different numbers, and there's probably other possibilities that could change how much time you spent in combat other than damage dealt (such as whether the game is more difficult at particular sections). Numbers only matter in context, outside of it no matter how big a number looks it tells nothing.  So simply posting a screen of your character sheet and saying hey look how good this is! Is completely irrelevant.

 

You say it's not as terrible, but the reality is that you have very little you're actually comparing it to. You have the pregen companions, so it may look to you like your ranged rogue is going lots of damage, but if you had a melee rogue in the same party you might see a very different story. When I get back home and can access PoE I'll see about posting stats and calcing relative dps numbers. Ranged rogue and ranger both have terrible sustained damage; their burst is actually where they are strongest at. Priest buffs will affect every party member fairly evenly, and only in the early game is there ever an issue of running out of spells. I've never had to backtrack for camping supplies and after around level 4 I've never had a problem utilizing spells in the majority of encounters. The only time spellcasters don't use spells in when encounters are trivial.

 

 

The overall contribution IS the context. Sure you could be very specific and come up with the best formula to calculate numbers for each battle but you don't really need such detailed analysis to have a rough idea on whether a character is effective or not. I don't see how overall contribution to gauge a character's efficacy would even be remotely "completely irrelevant" tbh.

 

Unless you're rest scumming, then you still gotta ration your wizard's casting resources (again, talking about PotD - almost no enounters are trivial). Priest buffs affects everyone equally sure, but would Eder benefit more of the additional 20% crit rate/+20 accuracy or my rogue? Like I said, my ranged rougue can burst WITH sustainability. I can go through numerous fights with only per encounter abilities and my rogue still deal massive damage.

 

I have already mentioned the intangible weaknesses of melee rogues. By the time the melee rogues can safely engage enemies without getting aggro, my ranged rogue has been tearing enemies from the start. And what if they get engaged? Time would be wasted on disengaging with escape abilities. That's why overall contribution might actually be the best convenient metric - it includes long encounters, short encounters, hard encounters and easy encounters which covers every situation, every pros and cons for the various builds in every battle.

[dunehunter]

So, cipher's initial focus has been reduced, the rest unchanged. They are also tankier and now are as tanky as a druid. Melee cipher carrow golan addict it is .

 

Melee wizard looks CRAZY with new changes. 4*endurance health and 12*level endurance? On top of all these buffs? 50% hit to graze? 75 deflection on hardened veil? Weapon ineffective...

 

Remeber firearms can hit through Veils, they ignore the deflection bonus from arcane veils.

 

Just tested the new melee style wizard, the 1st level spell 'Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff' is just OP, it is an exceptional weapon that deals around 40 damage, plus drain property.

Edited May 1, 2015 by dunehunter

[Sanctuary]

 

Stats are the only context that matters... The stats you see tell very little as they're predominantly based on what your character could do compared to what the rest of your characters could do. Now, it might be possible to approximate a dps number by calcing damage dealt versus time in combat (for your character it's approximately .37 dps, that's per game second by the way, not sure how much each game second equals in real time) but even that has particular limitations,  as whether you were playing on PotD or a lower difficulty would result in different numbers, and there's probably other possibilities that could change how much time you spent in combat other than damage dealt (such as whether the game is more difficult at particular sections). Numbers only matter in context, outside of it no matter how big a number looks it tells nothing.  So simply posting a screen of your character sheet and saying hey look how good this is! Is completely irrelevant.

 

You say it's not as terrible, but the reality is that you have very little you're actually comparing it to. You have the pregen companions, so it may look to you like your ranged rogue is going lots of damage, but if you had a melee rogue in the same party you might see a very different story. When I get back home and can access PoE I'll see about posting stats and calcing relative dps numbers. Ranged rogue and ranger both have terrible sustained damage; their burst is actually where they are strongest at. Priest buffs will affect every party member fairly evenly, and only in the early game is there ever an issue of running out of spells. I've never had to backtrack for camping supplies and after around level 4 I've never had a problem utilizing spells in the majority of encounters. The only time spellcasters don't use spells in when encounters are trivial.

 

 

The overall contribution IS the context. Sure you could be very specific and come up with the best formula to calculate numbers for each battle but you don't really need such detailed analysis to have a rough idea on whether a character is effective or not. I don't see how overall contribution to gauge a character's efficacy would even be remotely "completely irrelevant" tbh.

 

Unless you're rest scumming, then you still gotta ration your wizard's casting resources (again, talking about PotD - almost no enounters are trivial). Priest buffs affects everyone equally sure, but would Eder benefit more of the additional 20% crit rate/+20 accuracy or my rogue? Like I said, my ranged rougue can burst WITH sustainability. I can go through numerous fights with only per encounter abilities and my rogue still deal massive damage.

 

I have already mentioned the intangible weaknesses of melee rogues. By the time the melee rogues can safely engage enemies without getting aggro, my ranged rogue has been tearing enemies from the start. And what if they get engaged? Time would be wasted on disengaging with escape abilities. That's why overall contribution might actually be the best convenient metric - it includes long encounters, short encounters, hard encounters and easy encounters which covers every situation, every pros and cons for the various builds in every battle.

 

Difficulty plays a pretty huge factor, but the classes were balanced around Normal.  You also shouldn't be comparing a non DPS character to a DPS character, because that's a pointless comparison.  The difference between Hard and PotD is just the level of tedium and inflated stats.  So yeah, fights will drag on.  Hard though actually feels like the most balanced of the difficulties, but then the enemies per encounter are quite a bit higher than Easy and Normal, so it favors AoE classes.  Wizards are actually pretty pointless below Hard. 

 

I also feel like you're either exaggerating, not optimizing or just getting lazy on many of your fights though in regards to ability useage for ALL of your characters.  Because despite the fact that non Cipher AoE casters will start running out of spells earlier, the fights won't be lasting so long that the Rogue will supercede them for overall damage done.  The only way that's going to happen is if you force it, by stacking buffs on the Rogue soley to inflate their contribution, while neglecting the rest of the group.  You also mentioned only being halfway through Act 2.  So?  Different classes perform differently at different levels due to unlocks.

 

And yes, stats DO matter.  INT doesn't really matter as much unless you're a Wizard or Druid for slightly larger AoE, but MGT and DEX most certainly matter for all DPS classes.

 

So, cipher's initial focus has been reduced, the rest unchanged. They are also tankier and now are as tanky as a druid. Melee cipher carrow golan addict it is .

 

Melee wizard looks CRAZY with new changes. 4*endurance health and 12*level endurance? On top of all these buffs? 50% hit to graze? 75 deflection on hardened veil? Weapon ineffective...

Are you sure you read that correctly?  They gain +2 more END per level.  That's not really what I'd consider crazy.  It won't really affect that much.  As it stands right now, a melee Wizard wants to drop CON kind of low anyway to raise RES, especially since you can give yourself 50 END anyway.  I do think Wizards overall though got some extremely useful buffs.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Sanctuary

[Kilrach]

Difficulty plays a pretty huge factor, but the classes were balanced around Normal.  You also shouldn't be comparing a non DPS character to a DPS character, because that's a pointless comparison.  The difference between Hard and PotD is just the level of tedium and inflated stats.  So yeah, fights will drag on.  Hard though actually feels like the most balanced of the difficulties, but then the enemies per encounter are quite a bit higher than Easy and Normal, so it favors AoE classes.  Wizards are actually pretty pointless below Hard. 

 

 

I also feel like you're either exaggerating, not optimizing or just getting lazy on many of your fights though in regards to ability useage for ALL of your characters.  Because despite the fact that non Cipher AoE casters will start running out of spells earlier, the fights won't be lasting so long that the Rogue will supercede them for overall damage done.  The only way that's going to happen is if you force it, by stacking buffs on the Rogue soley to inflate their contribution, while neglecting the rest of the group.  You also mentioned only being halfway through Act 2.  So?  Different classes perform differently at different levels due to unlocks.

 

And yes, stats DO matter.  INT doesn't really matter as much unless you're a Wizard or Druid for slightly larger AoE, but MGT and DEX most certainly matter for all DPS classes.

 

I made that pointless comparison to show how pointless your comparison was. You were comparing spellcasters to rogues. IMO, they are primarily a crowd control class rather than a DPS one. Same goes for my Eder, he's primarily a tank but he still can dish out damage with that accuracy - do I view him as a DPS? Of course not. Yes higher difficulties favour Wizards and less so for a weapon user with high defense for enemies, yet my Rogue can still dish out the damage.

 

Unfortunately, I don't have the luxury of NOT optimizing or getting lazy for fights in PotD, even if I wanted to. So that's definitely not the case. That being said, I don't like to rest unnecessarily, and I don't like to use spells unnecessarily. Therefore, I'm not a rest scummer (after a rest, I went through lvl 5-7 of Endless Paths without resting, gonna rest after a couple of fights at lvl 8 now). I have a feeling you haven't tried PotD yet or haven't ventured into the Endless Paths under that difficulty. I can say that AOE fire nukes pretty much tickles anything more than a Xaurip, even normal Xaurips still need a hit or two after being hit by a Fireball (most likely grazing them). Oh, I did mention I'm playing with FF on didn't I? That means I couldn't use Fan of Flames whenever I want. Chill Fog's great though. Either way, IMO AOE debuffs > AOE nukes - I don't want to sound like a broken record. That's because I think Wizards are primary a crowd control class like I said before.

 

I mentioned I'm at Act 2 because I believe my overall contribution would only get better. Besides, you should be looking at my character level who is already lvl 9 (same as the rest of my party) rather than where have I progressed into the game.

 

Stats do matter, but not when you're comparing apples to oranges. Then, giving both of them the same stats for comparison doesn't mean squat.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Kilrach

[MadDemiurg]

So, cipher's initial focus has been reduced, the rest unchanged. They are also tankier and now are as tanky as a druid. Melee cipher carrow golan addict it is .

 

Melee wizard looks CRAZY with new changes. 4*endurance health and 12*level endurance? On top of all these buffs? 50% hit to graze? 75 deflection on hardened veil? Weapon ineffective...

Are you sure you read that correctly?  They gain +2 more END per level.  That's not really what I'd consider crazy.  It won't really affect that much.  As it stands right now, a melee Wizard wants to drop CON kind of low anyway to raise RES, especially since you can give yourself 50 END anyway.  I do think Wizards overall though got some extremely useful buffs.

 

Well, +2 end was exactly the difference between wizard/cipher and rogue/druid. Wizard also got bumped up to 4*end health. While health increasing buffs are nice, this is still a major buff. Basically +20% survivability and +~40% sustain. Con is still a dump stat, but higher base still means 20% more endurance with dumped CON. New defensive buffs and Citzal's lance look extremely strong. Priests also got a major survivability buff.

 

 

So, cipher's initial focus has been reduced, the rest unchanged. They are also tankier and now are as tanky as a druid. Melee cipher carrow golan addict it is .

 

Melee wizard looks CRAZY with new changes. 4*endurance health and 12*level endurance? On top of all these buffs? 50% hit to graze? 75 deflection on hardened veil? Weapon ineffective...

 

Remeber firearms can hit through Veils, they ignore the deflection bonus from arcane veils.

 

Just tested the new melee style wizard, the 1st level spell 'Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff' is just OP, it is an exceptional weapon that deals around 40 damage, plus drain property.

 

And how many enemies exactly use firearms throughout the game? I'm not even sure it works properly since I never got a chance to test it. Extremely gimmicky penalty at best. You might as well make it +75 and be done with it.

Edited May 1, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Empyron]

Wizards don't do so bad in heavy armor. At least in my first Play through. 

[alexis13]

Lol maybe for a full party, for Solo PotD I'd say they're garbage tier.

 

For soloing PotD, the strongest and most titan like classes (which also do all fights and don't skip like rogue are)

 

 

God Tier:

 

Paladin (Strongest)

Wizard

Monk.

 

They can tank everything late game alone, even the Adra Dragon itself and kill all of these things alone, I solo'd the Adra on my wizard.

[PrimeJunta]

Cool necro.

 

Class balance has shifted a lot -- like, a LOT -- since April. 

 

Right now, the only class I think is underpowered -- and I may be wrong about that -- is the chanter, and that's mostly because of the dual limitation of having to rack up phrases to invoke, and having very little variety in invocations. Meaning, you set up the chanter as a buff-bot and hope you got the right buffs. The phrases and invocations themselves are pretty powerful. Problem is that chanters are kind of useless at doing anything while chanting; they're fairly garbage fighters, they're not robust, so they can't contribute much else than the buffs.

 

I'm not really sure what I'd do with them actually. Maybe give them a bigger choice in invocations early on, and tune the combat abilities so they're not such squibs.

 

We'll see though, I've always dropped Kana mid-game and have never played a PC chanter. This time around I intend to hang onto him as far as I get into this playthrough, so maybe I'll change my mind.

[Mechalibur]

Cool necro.

 

Class balance has shifted a lot -- like, a LOT -- since April. 

 

Right now, the only class I think is underpowered -- and I may be wrong about that -- is the chanter, and that's mostly because of the dual limitation of having to rack up phrases to invoke, and having very little variety in invocations. Meaning, you set up the chanter as a buff-bot and hope you got the right buffs. The phrases and invocations themselves are pretty powerful. Problem is that chanters are kind of useless at doing anything while chanting; they're fairly garbage fighters, they're not robust, so they can't contribute much else than the buffs.

 

I'm not really sure what I'd do with them actually. Maybe give them a bigger choice in invocations early on, and tune the combat abilities so they're not such squibs.

 

We'll see though, I've always dropped Kana mid-game and have never played a PC chanter. This time around I intend to hang onto him as far as I get into this playthrough, so maybe I'll change my mind.

The problem with chanters is that they become really difficult to use late game. All of their higher level chants start taking longer, which means they have to stick with low level chants if they want to use any of their invocations before the battle ends. The issue is compounded by the fact that high level invocations require increasing numbers of chants to be completed. My suggestions would be:

 

1. Highest level invocations always take 3 chants. When the chanter gains access to a new level of invocations, all older invocations take 1 less chant to use (to a minimum of 1). So by the time a chanter has level 4 invocations, their level 4 invocations would take 3 chants, level 3 would take 2 chants, and levels 2 and 1 would take only 1 chant.

 

2. New chants need a serious reduction in how long they last. Personally, I think duration should stop being tied to level, and should just vary from chant to chant, depending on how good it is..

 

3. Chanter specific talents also need a massive buff. They only have 2, and they're both pretty terrible.

[PrimeJunta]

I hear that in 3.0 chanters are going to chant faster as they level up, as well as other tweaks. Scatman John to the rescue...

 

Agree about the talents. Ancient Memory is a sad joke.

[Ganrich]

Yeah, I've said it before (probably in this thread), chanters need some talents specific to them. I think they need some active talents too. That way they can have a play style that is a little more active while waiting for Invocations.

 

I still think a talent that allowed them to cast a spell from a scroll without consuming the scroll once per encounter, or 3 per rest, or whatever would be good. Obviously, some scrolls should be omitted, but it also would make the talent to increase quick slots by 2 an interesting option.

[Boeroer]

Ouuu - that special talent with scrolls sounds really different, fitting and nice. Never thought of this but it makes kind of sense for a chanter (who knows lots of lore and so on).

 

@PrimeJunta: Scatman John roflmao. 

 

Can you keep up?

Edited January 6, 2016 by Boeroer