Let's talk class balance....

[Urthor]

 

One Stands Alone adds +20dmg to all melee attacks.  This includes any speed weapon, retaliation (OP), and fire-god aura.  And then carnage works with them all too......And then Draining works with all of that damage.

 

Maybe its bugged or maybe they wanted to give Cipher and Chanter's T3 Songs competition

 

If that's not bugged then its really unbalanced, lol.

 

 

It's not even unbalanced.  Barbarians are designed that One Stands Alone is a mandatory must take ability, but even though that one single ability increases their damage output by about 50%, it doesn't make the class stronger than Druid/Cipher/Rogue/Chanter etc etc.  

 

 

What is broken is the fact that One Stands Alone has a terribly written tooltip that doesn't explain how good it is, so players can miss it, and if you don't take it your Barbarian is going to be very weak.  

[MadDemiurg]

Yeah my barb off-tank and druid kinda kill everything before my Wizard usually was able to put the two eye-icon buffs on himself, which is when I just replaced him lol.

Well, you don't need the buffs really, it's just a demonstration of how much you can improve your dps if you want to. Normally summon + blights would do it and still do tons of damage.

 

 

 

CC is not the only thing wiz does well. Summon minor blights and your double that bombards with electricity and watch things melt. Some of the better damage druid spells have FF too.

 

Ultimate sniper combo would probably be eldrich aim  + minor blights + haste (whatever it's called)  + martial prowess. Aoe attacks at +55 acc and 174% attack speed are kinda fun. Needs some time to buff up tough (but most spells are fast)

 

I don't enjoy having to cast four spells in order to do something decently. Even in clothing and maximum dexterity, it's going to be a challenge to get off more than one or two attacks before at least one of those spells expires. Even if one could manage to do all of that, the battle would probably have already ended, or at least decided by the time it comes to fruition. Practicality matters.

 

Most of these spells last  very long actually, all of them are fast, If you cast haste first you get them out even faster, and as I said, you don't need them to be decent, it's just for maximum devastation when you want it.

 

 

After acquiring the Druid companion I'm absolutely horrified at just how bad Wizard spells are in comparison. Like, all of spell level 2 on Wizard is borderline worthless. With the exception of Fan of Flames(and even then, Winter Wind is pretty close...) Druids just deal more damage than Wizards do at greater range and with better utility. Blizzard, a level 2 Druid spell deals 30-50 damage. Fireball deals 25-35. Fireball is a spell level higher, has less range, and has no debuff attached to it. W T F?

 

Druids also for some reason have significantly more range, which means they can cast much more safely on higher difficulties. And they have Endurance restore and other fairly decent defensive spells.

 

I'm seriously just at a loss to comprehend how anyone thought these spell lists were balanced. Especially the level 2 and 3 Wizard offensive spells. They're just...embarrassingly BAD.

 

Fireball is fast. That's why it has less dmg. Noxious burst deals more damage and has a a debuff. Also, druid is supposed to be a bit better at aoe and wiz at cc/utility.

Edited April 8, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[MadDemiurg]

 

 

One Stands Alone adds +20dmg to all melee attacks.  This includes any speed weapon, retaliation (OP), and fire-god aura.  And then carnage works with them all too......And then Draining works with all of that damage.

 

Maybe its bugged or maybe they wanted to give Cipher and Chanter's T3 Songs competition

 

If that's not bugged then its really unbalanced, lol.

 

 

It's not even unbalanced.  Barbarians are designed that One Stands Alone is a mandatory must take ability, but even though that one single ability increases their damage output by about 50%, it doesn't make the class stronger than Druid/Cipher/Rogue/Chanter etc etc.  

 

 

What is broken is the fact that One Stands Alone has a terribly written tooltip that doesn't explain how good it is, so players can miss it, and if you don't take it your Barbarian is going to be very weak.  

 

No way +20 dmg is not a bug, It's the only ability in the game that gives flat damage increase rather than percent. Actually some of the abilities probably did this too previously (and still have wrong tooltips), but they were changed. It should be 20%. Also battle forged counting as melee attack is also ridiculous and in no way intentional.

 

Yes, It doesn't make barb better than the casters because of how the game is designed, but it makes all other martial classes obsolete for dps.

Edited April 8, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Urthor]

No way +20 dmg is not a bug, It's the only ability in the game that gives flat damage increase rather than percent. Actually some of the abilities probably did this too previously (and still have wrong tooltips), but they were changed. It should be 20%. Also battle forged counting as melee attack is also ridiculous and in no way intentional.

 

Yes, It doesn't make barb better than the casters because of how the game is designed, but it makes all other martial classes obsolete for dps.

 

 

Yea that's fair, change it to 20/30%, and leave the Barb at roughly the same point it's at currently.

 

Like the fact every single non-Barbarian class can't put out meaningful DPS in melee is the problem here, not the fact that the Barbarian can in fact put out some meaningful DPS.  If it's a design decision for it to be like that, well it's a pretty bad design decision. 

Edited April 8, 2015 by Urthor

[KDubya]

 

No way +20 dmg is not a bug, It's the only ability in the game that gives flat damage increase rather than percent. Actually some of the abilities probably did this too previously (and still have wrong tooltips), but they were changed. It should be 20%. Also battle forged counting as melee attack is also ridiculous and in no way intentional.

 

Yes, It doesn't make barb better than the casters because of how the game is designed, but it makes all other martial classes obsolete for dps.

 

 

Yea that's fair, change it to 20/30%, and leave the Barb at roughly the same point it's at currently.

 

Like the fact every single non-Barbarian class can't put out meaningful DPS in melee is the problem here, not the fact that the Barbarian can in fact put out some meaningful DPS.  If it's a design decision for it to be like that, well it's a pretty bad design decision. 

 

 

 

I'd disagree about non-barbs being incapable of meaningful melee DPS.

 

Now this is only on hard, I have not tried PotD.

 

My main is a two handed fighter with max might, high dex, res and per with all damage type feats and wielding estocs. He is tanky enough in scale armor to stand with Eder and hits for an average of like 40 points at a fairly fast rate with a high accuracy. It is only single target damage but the single target goes down pretty fast. Tough fights might last longer than with a barbarian in the mix but at the end of the fight the team is still standing and not hardly injured. Lasting longer also gets some use out of chanter summons.

 

Trash mobs can't hit a fighter spec'd for damage very well so the speed of killing them is immaterial. A barb is going to get hit and crit'd by anything swinging, DR helps but good deflection + good DR is better than terrible deflection and good DR.

[PIP-Clownboy]

One Stand Alone is definitely 100% not working as intended which is why it's a bad argument in balance discussions. I don't use it outside of gimmick lulz. Barbs are still top tier without the brokeness. Glass cannon Barbs in particular explode most things in seconds on POTD anyway.

Edited April 8, 2015 by PIP-Clownboy

[Longknife]

I again have to stress how underestimated Monk is.

I recently thought it'd be fun to use randomizer.org to make a random squad. Random gender, race, class, stats, culture, appearance, voice, you name it. I ended up rolling a Priest, Rogue, Priest, Monk, Wizard and Cipher.

 

Guess who's the tank for the party? The Monk

Guess who has the highest damage dealt with double that of second place? The Monk

 

Seeing as I have him alongside two other notorious damage dealers (Cipher and Rogue), I find this pretty conclusive evidence that Monk is HIGHLY underestimated. As I said, this may be the most OP class in the game and we just haven't realized it yet. One could argue that the Cipher's damage is cut down from the Mental Binding spam, but the Rogue has only managed half of the Monk's damage. Again you could argue this might change as they level up, but the Monk is still the superior tank and I'd still say the accomplishments thusfar are outstanding and worthy of praise.

 

Only note again is that Monk needs babysitting. If you do not spam the hell out of their wound skills, it's just a less tanky fighter. The Monk skills NEED to be spammed, but each skill used is effectively a crit, and since the Monk is unarmed, they attack lightning fast. If you're willing to put in the effort to remember your Monk though, I see no reason to NOT include one in your squad.

[MadDemiurg]

It's funny how everyone has one character that does twice the damage of everyone else in the party. Maybe they are just biased and babysit their PC more? I dunno.

 

My parties had it much more balanced. Tanks were dealing obviously next to no damage, but the rest of the chars had it more or less even. The latest party I've been running had #1 cipher (about 20% lead) #2 barb #3 wiz (very close) #4 druid (quite surprisingly, he was also the PC, also pretty close to wiz) #5 priest (much lower than druid) #6 tank chanter (effectively no damage), The druid still contributed ton of damage in big fights, but wizard has probably taken the lead because of blast in trash fights and barb/cipher racked up the numbers on trash fights as well.

Edited April 9, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[dirigible]

Only note again is that Monk needs babysitting. If you do not spam the hell out of their wound skills, it's just a less tanky fighter. The Monk skills NEED to be spammed, but each skill used is effectively a crit, and since the Monk is unarmed, they attack lightning fast. If you're willing to put in the effort to remember your Monk though, I see no reason to NOT include one in your squad.

If any class needed ai macros, it's the monk.

 

If you have a wound & swift strikes isn't active, activate swift strikes

If you have 4+ wounds, use torment's reach on your current target

[Longknife]

It's funny how everyone has one character that does twice the damage of everyone else in the party. Maybe they are just biased and babysit their PC more? I dunno.

 

My parties had it much more balanced. Tanks were dealing obviously next to no damage, but the rest of the chars had it more or less even. The latest party I've been running had #1 cipher (about 20% lead) #2 barb #3 wiz (very close) #4 druid (quite surprisingly, he was also the PC, also pretty close to wiz) #5 priest (much lower than druid) #6 tank chanter (effectively no damage), The druid still contributed ton of damage in big fights, but wizard has probably taken the lead because of blast in trash fights and barb/cipher racked up the numbers on trash fights as well.

 

I would think so, but the thing with Monk is there's only so much attention it can get (when not tanking) OR if used properly, it gets attention round the clock. My Cipher easily gets just as much attention because those stuns are vital for tough battles, with Rogue being one that I perhaps "neglect" in the sense that Rogue could benefit from constantly going for flanked targets, but this doesn't really work out with my squad composition. I NEED either the Rogue or one of the Priests to help hold the line, so defensive tactics get prioritized over offensive ones there. The Monk can combine both with no harm done to his damage output. Wizard is another I neglect simply because the damage of Cipher and Monk's per encounter abilities seems better than that of Wiz, so sometimes I forget Wiz momentarily.

 

Still, trust me on this. Monk's damage output seems to be the best in the game overall. I feel the point I want to make is that if you absolutely babysit any character, of course that character's damage ouput goes up significantly. Monk however I think sees the most significant increase, because there's constantly something you can do with the Monk (so long as it tanks some damage), whereas Rogue or Cipher or Wizard are going to have their down times.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Longknife

[Shadenuat]

Gotta say Ranger with upgraded Forgiveness ain't bad, imo better than ranged rogue. Swift aim and bouncing shot are fairly decent and he crits very often. I also like Binding Roots because it's one of a few ranged CC's unlike regular knockdowns and you can use them up to 5 times every combat. That and an extra body to throw at mobs makes Ranger fairly useful in a party without classic spellcasters.

[MadDemiurg]

 

It's funny how everyone has one character that does twice the damage of everyone else in the party. Maybe they are just biased and babysit their PC more? I dunno.

 

My parties had it much more balanced. Tanks were dealing obviously next to no damage, but the rest of the chars had it more or less even. The latest party I've been running had #1 cipher (about 20% lead) #2 barb #3 wiz (very close) #4 druid (quite surprisingly, he was also the PC, also pretty close to wiz) #5 priest (much lower than druid) #6 tank chanter (effectively no damage), The druid still contributed ton of damage in big fights, but wizard has probably taken the lead because of blast in trash fights and barb/cipher racked up the numbers on trash fights as well.

 

I would think so, but the thing with Monk is there's only so much attention it can get (when not tanking) OR if used properly, it gets attention round the clock. My Cipher easily gets just as much attention because those stuns are vital for tough battles, with Rogue being one that I perhaps "neglect" in the sense that Rogue could benefit from constantly going for flanked targets, but this doesn't really work out with my squad composition. I NEED either the Rogue or one of the Priests to help hold the line, so defensive tactics get prioritized over offensive ones there. The Monk can combine both with no harm done to his damage output. Wizard is another I neglect simply because the damage of Cipher and Monk's per encounter abilities seems better than that of Wiz, so sometimes I forget Wiz momentarily.

 

Still, trust me on this. Monk's damage output seems to be the best in the game overall. I feel the point I want to make is that if you absolutely babysit any character, of course that character's damage ouput goes up significantly. Monk however I think sees the most significant increase, because there's constantly something you can do with the Monk (so long as it tanks some damage), whereas Rogue or Cipher or Wizard are going to have their down times.

 

Can you share your monk build?

[Longknife]

 

 

It's funny how everyone has one character that does twice the damage of everyone else in the party. Maybe they are just biased and babysit their PC more? I dunno.

 

My parties had it much more balanced. Tanks were dealing obviously next to no damage, but the rest of the chars had it more or less even. The latest party I've been running had #1 cipher (about 20% lead) #2 barb #3 wiz (very close) #4 druid (quite surprisingly, he was also the PC, also pretty close to wiz) #5 priest (much lower than druid) #6 tank chanter (effectively no damage), The druid still contributed ton of damage in big fights, but wizard has probably taken the lead because of blast in trash fights and barb/cipher racked up the numbers on trash fights as well.

 

I would think so, but the thing with Monk is there's only so much attention it can get (when not tanking) OR if used properly, it gets attention round the clock. My Cipher easily gets just as much attention because those stuns are vital for tough battles, with Rogue being one that I perhaps "neglect" in the sense that Rogue could benefit from constantly going for flanked targets, but this doesn't really work out with my squad composition. I NEED either the Rogue or one of the Priests to help hold the line, so defensive tactics get prioritized over offensive ones there. The Monk can combine both with no harm done to his damage output. Wizard is another I neglect simply because the damage of Cipher and Monk's per encounter abilities seems better than that of Wiz, so sometimes I forget Wiz momentarily.

 

Still, trust me on this. Monk's damage output seems to be the best in the game overall. I feel the point I want to make is that if you absolutely babysit any character, of course that character's damage ouput goes up significantly. Monk however I think sees the most significant increase, because there's constantly something you can do with the Monk (so long as it tanks some damage), whereas Rogue or Cipher or Wizard are going to have their down times.

 

Can you share your monk build?

 

 

 

Like I said, the entire squad was randomly rolled, so he's by no means optimized. Luckily I saved all their stats on a notepad. Here, check out how thorough I was with everything that got randomized :

 

 

Male Moon (Human) Godlike Monk (Torment's Reach) of Aedyr Laborer

 

Might: 17

Con: 14

Dex: 14

Per: 9

Int: 8

Res: 15

 

Head 3

38 and 7 for color identifiers

 

Noble voice

 

Note that I miscalced initially so I think he has a stat point free up or two, which I think got assigned to Resolve when I rerolled it.

 

I got lucky that his stats actually landed on the recommended for the most part (Resolve isn't recommended for Monk according to the game itself) and the race roll was a huge stroke of luck aswell, but I sincerely doubt I've happened across some super build.

 

As I've stated, my opinion? Some classes need very little management to be effective (Barb, Fighter), others need tons of management but the pay off is they have more capabilities in a battle. (Cipher)  I think Monk is hands-down the most attention-demanding class in the game, but that also means the pay off is also the highest. Just stick a Monk in the very front, make him tank, and then spam the crap out of his attacks. Torment's Reach (one of the two beginning skills) is deceivingly awesome because every use of it is like a crit. If your monk takes a big hit, you can easily get 6-9 wounds from a single hit alone, which means you can spam down the enemy with constant Torment's Reach uses. Whereas a Rogue or Cipher can only be managed so much before you resort to just assigning it to autoattack, Monk will NEVER stop having management opportunities so long as it's taking damage, and as long as you're willing to give it the attention it needs, this is nothing but a good thing.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Longknife

[MaxDamage]

I like pala because you re getting revival. sworn enemy is very powerful too.

Edited April 9, 2015 by MaxDamage

[dirigible]

Even without micro managing them, monks can be quite good.

 

My own monk was dealing 19-24 damage with his fists by endgame, with 5 DR penetration and the fastest attack speed in the game. He couldn't burst, but man oh man could he melt things down. He had more than twice the damage of anyone else in the party, with tanking stats almost as good as Eder.

[cavemandiary]

I again have to stress how underestimated Monk is.

 

I recently thought it'd be fun to use randomizer.org to make a random squad. Random gender, race, class, stats, culture, appearance, voice, you name it. I ended up rolling a Priest, Rogue, Priest, Monk, Wizard and Cipher.

 

Guess who's the tank for the party? The Monk

Guess who has the highest damage dealt with double that of second place? The Monk

 

Seeing as I have him alongside two other notorious damage dealers (Cipher and Rogue), I find this pretty conclusive evidence that Monk is HIGHLY underestimated. As I said, this may be the most OP class in the game and we just haven't realized it yet. One could argue that the Cipher's damage is cut down from the Mental Binding spam, but the Rogue has only managed half of the Monk's damage. Again you could argue this might change as they level up, but the Monk is still the superior tank and I'd still say the accomplishments thusfar are outstanding and worthy of praise.

 

Only note again is that Monk needs babysitting. If you do not spam the hell out of their wound skills, it's just a less tanky fighter. The Monk skills NEED to be spammed, but each skill used is effectively a crit, and since the Monk is unarmed, they attack lightning fast. If you're willing to put in the effort to remember your Monk though, I see no reason to NOT include one in your squad.

Agreed, monk is amazing. But then again, all the classes shine in one way or another wigh the right 'cheese/bugged' interaction or combo. Even paladins can work ( as tanks) on potd and be immortal. Chanter is bad on anything but potd but really shines there. Only ranger is truly lackluster across the board.

 

Btw cipher doesn't start to deal dmg (atleast now with the mindblades nerf) until lvl 9 with burrowed instincts) and amplified wave (lvl 11) does 70 dmg to the entire screen with high int. Until then he's mostly a cc bot imo.

[MadDemiurg]

Cipher is still one of the highest weapon damage classes. If ranged cipher doesn't do damage, ranged rogue doesn't either.

[Psychevore]

Judging from opponent classes, I'd say monk, rogue and priests are the scariest classes.

 

I'm not sure I've run into enemy ciphers...

[Voltron]

So which class do you consider best for soloing PotD?

 

My types are: Druid (AOE, heals, bear form), Cipher (DPS, Spell Spam, CC, range or melee builds), Barbarian (One Stands Alone and dmg), Rouge

 

My guess (didn’t try them yet): Monk (if find some good tank-build that allow maintain their damage), Chanter (Summons)

 

Rest I can’t judge really.

 

Your opinions?

[MadDemiurg]

I think all classes can solo. Wiz is about as good as druid and a lot of his spells actually work better solo. Ranger pet can be useful for distractions. Fighter doesn't have anything outstanding, but is extremely durable. I think Paladin is the worst class for solo.

[Voltron]

I think all classes can solo. Wiz is about as good as druid and a lot of his spells actually work better solo. Ranger pet can be useful for distractions. Fighter doesn't have anything outstanding, but is extremely durable. I think Paladin is the worst class for solo.

 

I agree, but there has to be best or few that are better than others at it. It is always like that.

 

So while I know all classes can solo- I ask: which class can do it better/smother? Some classes you need to build more tanky, so you suffer damage, but some are better enough so you can maintaing better damage while staying alive.

 

So- which classes you find so far best for solo PotD. Myself- Druid, Cipher and Barbarian.

 

Wizard for me do not have as good and many AOE as Druid and is less tanky. And lack of self heal is always a problem.

[MadDemiurg]

Wiz has a lot of awesome CC and still good aaoe + defensive self buffs though. I'd argue that wiz aoe might be actually better for solo. For non ironman I'd say cipher, wizard  and druid since you have tools to beat anything if you're not extremely unlucky. For ironman situation will change since you need something that can recover from bad luck better so more stable classes like chanter get better.

[Voltron]

Wiz has a lot of awesome CC and still good aaoe + defensive self buffs though. I'd argue that wiz aoe might be actually better for solo. For non ironman I'd say cipher, wizard  and druid since you have tools to beat anything if you're not extremely unlucky. For ironman situation will change since you need something that can recover from bad luck better so more stable classes like chanter get better.

 

Can you please tell me what do you mean by "ironman"?

 

Yup, Cipher is my favourite class, but I got bored of him after two playthroughs. However Puppet Master and AOE Domination/Charm spell can't be expressed enough. Mind Binding, Mind Blades, Mind Lance and few other powers are too good to pass.

 

Druid would be much better if his spirit forms were stronger. However, thanks to modders there is mod already that boost spiritforms to be usable in solo Hard/PotD so I think I will reroll Druid again, since now I can abuse Bear form heal and Damage reduction (16 with mod, instead of 10). Once again modders do what devs didn't balance yet .

[MadDemiurg]

Think it's called Trial of Iron here. No reloads run. I'm just using it's XCOM name cause I'm used to it.

Edited April 9, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Ceranai]

 

Wiz has a lot of awesome CC and still good aaoe + defensive self buffs though. I'd argue that wiz aoe might be actually better for solo. For non ironman I'd say cipher, wizard  and druid since you have tools to beat anything if you're not extremely unlucky. For ironman situation will change since you need something that can recover from bad luck better so more stable classes like chanter get better.

 

Can you please tell me what do you mean by "ironman"?

 

Yup, Cipher is my favourite class, but I got bored of him after two playthroughs. However Puppet Master and AOE Domination/Charm spell can't be expressed enough. Mind Binding, Mind Blades, Mind Lance and few other powers are too good to pass.

 

Druid would be much better if his spirit forms were stronger. However, thanks to modders there is mod already that boost spiritforms to be usable in solo Hard/PotD so I think I will reroll Druid again, since now I can abuse Bear form heal and Damage reduction (16 with mod, instead of 10). Once again modders do what devs didn't balance yet .

 

Iromman is trial of iron, trial of iron is inspired by the ironman mode in other paradox games where you dont get to reload saves and only get one life. In EU4 for example all achievements require ironman mode to be turned on and most of the middle-difficult achievements won't be achieved unless the player is specifically aiming for that achievement on that game.