Let's talk class balance....

[Exoduss]

Everyone is bashing rangers , my 4th party now ( most of them midgame or end of act1 on various difficulty setings incl PotD and Hard + ToI ) all of them had PC Ranger , every time i built differently and it seems that they arent the best if you relly on companion and ranger skills you get , But there are builds that wrecks **** for example going wood elf seems obvious choice for the ranger tho its more of a ranged rogue race , true ranger race is Island Aumua for the additional weapon sets , talent choice is quick switch always at level 2 ( get dissapointer , crossbow and war bow for your weapons rotation at lvl 2 when you start fight its pistol>crossbow>finish the fight reloading the bow ) , early game get 2 pistols+ arbalest for 4200, then talent to get 4th weapon set for even more quick switch wrecking , skills : vicious aim seems important shoot first 3 quick switches with vicious aim and then turn it off when u endup shooting the bow and reloading it for later talents gunner for when you get enough firearms to use them only , other 3 talent choices can warry but thease 3 are the key to succesfull ranger ( Quick Switch , 4th weapon set , gunner ) so is the island aumua race

P.S this requirers a lot of micro managing be aware of that

Edited April 6, 2015 by Exoduss

[Elerond]

top tier: All the classes with right build

lower tiers: All the classes with non optimized builds and roles.

There is some variance which classes work best with some other classes, but at end you can build every class to feel that they are OP in what they do. In solo runs some of the classes seem to just work better than others as they are easier to build be self reliant.

[Exoduss]

top tier: All the classes with right build

lower tiers: All the classes with non optimized builds and roles.

There is some variance which classes work best with some other classes, but at end you can build every class to feel that they are OP in what they do. In solo runs some of the classes seem to just work better than others as they are easier to build be self reliant.

and then there is melee dps classes who gets glitched bumping into its teammates or running arround your team and then atacking random mob on its way as soon as  you release pause ... :D

[amiable]

Everyone is bashing rangers , 

I agree that the ranger dislike isn't founded, I am having my easiest playthrough with my ranger now, who is completely wrecking face in PoD.  Ironically I built this character in a different direction than most folks suggest, war-bow with the DR penetrating talents, marksman and vicious aim (wood elf obviously).  Key here is getting accuracy as high as possible because on PoD the mobs tend to be hard to hit.  Right now she has something like triple the total damage of the next highest player (Altoth who always has led every other playthrough due to blast).  

[MadDemiurg]

Ranger indeed can have nice accuracy (+20 with stalkers link and vicious aim) and sniper build is indeed quite good with stunning shot. He can do good damage, some light cc and even some aoe with bouncing arrows talent, However that's not as good as Cipher's 140% biting whip attacks under tactical meld for same +20 acc or Rogue's ranged deathblows, and I'm not even bringing wizards or druids going all out on their spells into this. So while being quite decent, ranger is kinda unfocused and doesn't quite match other ranged options. He's still pretty good, just not as good as the alternatives.

[Killyox]

Fighter is definitely top tier as well. Make DW Fighter with high Lore and have him use Shocking Grasp sCrolls, Fireballs, Moonwell and Paralyze scrolls. Combine this with high defense and nasty single target dmg from DW.

 

Monk is "Good" with AoE dmg upon Getting hit. I had decimated entire groups with this passive. Put on him good DR and throw him in mid of enemies. You will see 15-30 aoe dmg flying Rapidly.

 

I had 3 bears attack my monk and he did 15 hits from that Pain thing (simultaneously). So every bear got hit 15 times for 15-30.

 

Every class is decent. As for Chanters... I find them meh atm because I finish most fights before one gets to 3 charges to use his stuff so duh.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Killyox

[Killyox]

top tier: All the classes with right build

lower tiers: All the classes with non optimized builds and roles.

There is some variance which classes work best with some other classes, but at end you can build every class to feel that they are OP in what they do. In solo runs some of the classes seem to just work better than others as they are easier to build be self reliant.

Agreed. 

[eubatham]

Fighter, Priest and Cipher are definitely the most powerful classes. These carry a group and if you don't use them, you'll be making it a lot harder on yourself. 

 

After that, I'd say you have classes like the Rogue, Ranger, Wizard (although later on they become really good), Chanter and Druid. These classes are pretty alright and nice to have, but won't have a large impact if you swap them out between each other. They all have really good damage, support or a combination of both.

 

Following those are the Barbarian and Monk. You'll be putting more strain on yourself if you want to play these classes (far more micromanaging), but it's certainly doable. Still, it's far easier to just use any of the above classes.

 

On the last spot I'd place the Paladin, sadly just about any class can replace the Paladin and do it better. The higher level they get, the more 'meh' they become. They are basically a weak fighter combined with an extremely weak priest. The most common brought up defense when it comes to Paladins is, "I managed to finish the game with a Paladin in my group". That's not really a gauge to measure how good a class is though, especially not when people are finishing the game with just one or two party members. There is no good reason to bring a Paladin to a group, apart from simply wanting a Paladin in your group.

 

To quote myself on Paladins;

 

Paladins are lackluster. They lack any and all focus, I say this as someone that finished the game on Hard difficulty with a PC that was a Paladin.

 

They're worthless tanks compared to fighters, but so is anyone else really. Fighters have far more defenses, more engagement and better endurance recovery (in more than one way). A Paladin is only on equal footing when it comes to an initial deflection bonus and is far more of use to assist other tanks. This is only reinforced due to the fact that some of the powerful defensive abilities a Paladin possesses only affect his allies and not the Paladin himself.

 

Damage wise they're alright for short fights and when you can rest occasionally (to regain Sworn Enemy), but they quickly run out of gas during long fights. Where other classes gain more tricks in their bags to use for long fights, we're still stuck with the initial 2/encounter Flames of Devotion at level 12. This, despite being able to heavily specialize and improve this ability along the way.

 

Then there's support. In this category Paladins also tend to fall short. The range of aura's is tiny and requires a hefty investment in intellect to even properly cover allies in melee. Boots of Zealous command are almost mandatory for any Paladin to take, simply to make aura's worthwhile for anyone but the Paladin and the people almost literally hugging him. The other supportive abilities that Paladins are able to obtain are decent, especially the ones later on, but a Priest basically brings the same utility and much, much more.

 

Once you've tried out the other classes, the Paladin just feels so lackluster. Another way to gauge their shortcomings is that during my playthrough(s), I never felt "next time I level up my Paladin, it'll make a big difference for the group" while with other classes like fighters, ciphers, wizard (later on) and priests I felt the opposite. They're alright offtanks, but the same can be said about most classes when you stick them in plate armor along with a bit of perception or resolve.

 

At the moment I would say that the only real reason to get a Paladin in your party, is if you simply want a Paladin in your party.

 

Edited April 6, 2015 by eubatham

[MadDemiurg]

Fighter is just the best damage sponge. He's good, but I won't say top. You can replace him with a lot of other options that won't work as well, but will do the job for the most part, plus if you go heavy on the nuking you may not need a tank at all (don't say it's optimal). He doesn't have any "I win" buttons though, and can't win the fights on his own usually. That makes him just "good" but not "top" in my book.

[Laz0r]

Fighter is just the best damage sponge. He's good, but I won't say top. You can replace him with a lot of other options that won't work as well, but will do the job for the most part, plus if you go heavy on the nuking you may not need a tank at all (don't say it's optimal). He doesn't have any "I win" buttons though, and can't win the fights on his own usually. That makes him just "good" but not "top" in my book.

I think when talking about balance it's important to consider what difficulty is being played at, in my case I'm referring to PotD. When a lot of the guys here are saying stuff like "melee dps sucks" and whatnot, they're referring to the fact if you place a melee dps in melee range, and they pull agro for 2 seconds, they're going to get roasted. A lot of the other classes are just relative, when your making ranks, you have to consider this too. For instance, can a monk tank? Yes, it can, but not as well as a fighter can. So for that role it gets shoved in a tier below in my mind.

[MadDemiurg]

I've also played PotD and doing a PotD solo run atm. You need to tank only for long enough to wipe out the enemies, so it all depends on your setup. Fighter is indeed the most survivable tank (and the least micro intensive one). However monk is a much better CC tank with force of anguish and Barb retaliation tank will often kill things attacking him before going down himself. And as I said, you can make setups that work without a real tank too. If you need a dedicated tank, yes, fighter is the best, but unlike classes that I put at the top he usually won't turn the battle by himself.

[Killyox]

I wish to point out that Rogue can solo POTD. So definitely a top class too.

 

 

I've also played PotD and doing a PotD solo run atm. You need to tank only for long enough to wipe out the enemies, so it all depends on your setup. Fighter is indeed the most survivable tank (and the least micro intensive one). However monk is a much better CC tank with force of anguish and Barb retaliation tank will often kill things attacking him before going down himself. And as I said, you can make setups that work without a real tank too. If you need a dedicated tank, yes, fighter is the best, but unlike classes that I put at the top he usually won't turn the battle by himself.

 

Give fighter LORE and scrolls like paralyze, fan of flames, shocking grasp. I guarentee he will wipe stuff on his own a lot of times.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Killyox

[MadDemiurg]

A lot of classes can solo POTD, it only varies how tedious it is. In case of rogue, imo very tedious. The only thing rogues have going for them is exploity combat reset via shadowing beyond. Apart from it, sneak attack doesn't work very well solo and the rest of class features are either not super impressive of work even worse solo.

 

Fighter with scrolls can do some damage, but a lot of better spells are not available as scrolls plus scrolls don't grow on trees. And any class can use scrolls/foods/potions to great effect. Not enough to make him top tier imo.

Edited April 6, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[MadDemiurg]

Wrong thread. 

Edited April 6, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Phoynix]

Rangers dont need much to fix them.. the problem is they dont feel like masters of range... the rogue does...

How to fix Rangers?

 

My idea

Default passive ability

Measured Placement

Affinity and experiance with ranged weapons gives Rangers an almost supernatural ability to get the best out of a ranged weapon, and to do so from what appear to be the worst possible s h o t s.

PS-why is the forums censoring the word S h o t s.

 

Effect

When a ranged weapon rolls lowest possible damage it automaticly becomes a Max roll for the ranger.

 

Effects?

Pistol 22-30

Every other class has a 1/9 chance of rolling 30 damage.

Ranger has a 2/9 chance of rolling 30 damage.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Phoynix

[Luj1]

top tier: All the classes with right build

lower tiers: All the classes with non optimized builds and roles.

 

 

Yeah...  in some other video game where classes are balanced.

[Lasci]

 

top tier: All the classes with right build

lower tiers: All the classes with non optimized builds and roles.

 

 

Yeah...  in some other video game where classes are balanced.

 

 

Are you kidding? This game's balance might not be perfect, but it's pretty damn hard to have a 'bad' character unless you're throwing a ranger to the front of the battle with a sword and shield and maxed intelligence while taking all talents and abilities that buff your pet and simultaneously never using said pet in battle.

 

Seriously, this game a) isn't hard and b) doesn't require min/maxing to succeed with any of the classes.

[Matt516]

Gonna throw one more hat into the "you people are greatly undervaluing Monks" ring. I've been playing on Hard with a Barb PC, the first 4 companions, and a Monk adventurer - and man, that Monk is a powerhouse. Somewhat squishy if built for pure damage as this one is (otherwise known as "every character ever" or "duh"), but is an absolute wrecking ball while she's up. I generally send her to solo a single enemy while Eder and the Barb take on the clump. She brings down whatever she's fighting extremely quickly, and can kick it 10 feet away if it's proving too much for her. 

 

The dueling style works very well for Monk IMO - they take enough damage to get wounds, but not enough to die - and they give better than they get. Leave fighting swarms to the Barbarians, Fighters, and (I guess) Paladins. Use the Monk as a hyper-mobile damage fountain skirmisher, repositioning as needed to keep out of the middle of the fray. Can even run them up to destroy enemy spell casters or hold them back to burst down teleporters that are wrecking your backline.

 

Monks. Barrels o' fun. Don't knock 'em til you've tried 'em.

[Luj1]

 

 

top tier: All the classes with right build

lower tiers: All the classes with non optimized builds and roles.

 

 

Yeah...  in some other video game where classes are balanced.

 

 

Are you kidding? This game's balance might not be perfect, but...

 

 

That's an understatement.

 

 

 

 

 

...  but it's pretty damn hard to have a 'bad' character...

 

 

 

Not really.

 

1) choose an inferior class/race due to lack of judgement

2) get cancer

Edited April 6, 2015 by Luj1

[MadDemiurg]

Tbh for rangers to be awesome predator's sense (or whatever the talent for +50% dmg vs enemies under DoT is called) should be tweaked to work on the ranger himself and not only the companion. Then rangers easily will be the top ranged weapon dps class (which they should be).

Edited April 6, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Voss]

 

 

top tier: All the classes with right build

lower tiers: All the classes with non optimized builds and roles.

 

 

Yeah...  in some other video game where classes are balanced.

 

 

Are you kidding? This game's balance might not be perfect, but it's pretty damn hard to have a 'bad' character unless you're throwing a ranger to the front of the battle with a sword and shield and maxed intelligence while taking all talents and abilities that buff your pet and simultaneously never using said pet in battle.

 

Seriously, this game a) isn't hard and b) doesn't require min/maxing to succeed with any of the classes.

 

No, but it does make a serious difference.  Doing a custom party and a cipher main is a very different experience than putting up with the crap builds and abundance of terrible classes provided by the companions.   I've got a wizard, priest, druid in the party, but they almost never cast spells because the tank can't be hit, and the cipher paralyzes/sticks everything else that could have engaged, then gets back enough focus to paralyze over and over again for the entire fight.   The other party members are just the firing squad, which they're stupidly good at, because they have good might and dex (and int for when I get bored and want to indulge raining down fire).  I butchered Raedric's hold with barely a scratch

 

Now part of this, of course, is the cipher, which is the only casting class actually built to take advantage of how the game's combat system works, but fighters and monks exploit it well too (being encounter based).  To a degree that makes the other classes entirely superfluous.   The game is easy once you figure out the mechanics, but the right classes and builds allow you to sleepwalk through the combat with only a couple of mouse clicks and a heavy reliance on auto-attacks.  The mechanical design and balance for this game is utter trash.

[Vadász]

About the chanter, isn't it weird that they would be one of the worst classes if not for their summons? The latest patch having crippled their most interesting buffs actually made me wonder if people would even use one if they nerfed his summons too.

[Laz0r]

About the chanter, isn't it weird that they would be one of the worst classes if not for their summons? The latest patch having crippled their most interesting buffs actually made me wonder if people would even use one if they nerfed his summons too.

Not a chance, and I'm not going to even add one to my party at this stage because I know that they're probably going to nerf summons sooner or later.

[Vadász]

The problem with the monk is that a character that many people think should be the master at not getting hit actually has a mechanic more fit for a barbarian/berserker, maybe we should start building him mechanically instead of conceptually.

[cavemandiary]

Haven´t read all the posts, but before we even decide on balance issues, one question must be asked: Which difficulty? For example, rogue is insane on easy and normal while chanter is utterly useless.

 

Having said that, atleast there seems to be some consensus that ciphers are top tier.