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Socrates’ criticism of democracy (i.e why its BS)


Luj1

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Inspired by the recent Firedorn memorial proceedings I opened up my dusty Dialogues...

 

 

 

...

 

Socrates:  "Democracy shall fall due to attempting to please everybody.

 

The poor shall desire wealth of the rich. And democracy shall grant them wealth.

 

The young shall desire respect of the elders. And democracy shall grant them respect.

 

The foreigners shall desire privileges of the natives. And democracy shall grant them privileges.

 

The women shall desire to be equal to men. And democracy shall grant them equality.

 

The crook and the wicked shall desire to rule. And democracy shall grant them important positions within the Republic.

 

 

And when finally the crook and the wicked are elected democratically, there shall be worse tyranny than has been during any monarchy or oligarchy.

 

...

 

 

 

 

 

There's more but this is the essence. Amazing that 2400 years ago Socrates had clearly seen what is happening right now. Translated manually by me.

 

EDIT:

 

Worth noting is the Athenian democrats executed Socrates not long after, by making him drink Cicuta poison (i.e. poison hemlock), on the premise that he's spoiling Athenian youth. Lol.

Edited by Luj1
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"There once was a loon that twitter


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In its demise he wasn't missed


Because there were bugs to be fixed."


~ Kaine


 


 


 

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Except that is not what is happening right now.

 

 

It is. But w/e.

 

We live in the age of so-called political correctness. As our democracy gets ever more liberal , everyone has something he wants. You ask and you receive. The only requirement is that you're perceived as a minority. Democracy shall do the rest. While ordinary people will eventually become those who are discriminated. The goal of this thing is to come full circle.

Edited by Luj1

"There once was a loon that twitter


Before he went down the ****ter


In its demise he wasn't missed


Because there were bugs to be fixed."


~ Kaine


 


 


 

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Quote sounds too good to be true, like several other internet quotes attributed to famous people. Any link for the source? But yeah, democracy doesn't work if every idiot can vote, there need to be restrictions.

"Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan

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xJHNS8o.jpg

 

 

Ed and Ted ! :DDDD

 

 

 

Quote sounds too good to be true, like several other internet quotes attributed to famous people. Any link for the source?

 

 
My library. So I'm afraid not. But google is your friend :p
 
 
 

 

But yeah, democracy doesn't work if every idiot can vote, there need to be restrictions.

 

 

 

Ah, but the idea of democracy *is* that *any* idiot i.e. pleb can vote. Houston we have a problem.

Edited by Luj1

"There once was a loon that twitter


Before he went down the ****ter


In its demise he wasn't missed


Because there were bugs to be fixed."


~ Kaine


 


 


 

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Mod note: Picture turned into link. https://media.8ch.net/leftypol/src/1428282835870.jpg

Edited by TrueNeutral
If it's just another way to spell a word that would be censored, that counts as circumventing the language filter.
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Whoever creates these cartoons you keep linking is one twisted ****.

 

On topic:

 

The nature of humans has not changed in all of recorded history. The outlines and answers to a lot of modern day insanities can be found thousands of years ago, or one hundred years ago. Socrates was right on about a lot of things that are very pertinent to modern times. So were a number of the other folks from way back in the day.

 

Socrates' position on democracy is a matter of some debate however, as some think that Plato misattributed his own thoughts on the subject to his mentor. Either way, people were saying democracy had some issues in the land that is credited as giving us the idea for it, and correctly pointing out what some of them are.

 

Democracy is generally great if you're with a bunch of friends and voting on which movie you're gonna see, bar you're gonna go to, or what restaurant to eat at. It loses it's luster the more people you involve in it, and is generally downright ugly when you start enforcing what the majority wants with guns.

Edited by TrueNeutral
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Democracy is generally great if you're with a bunch of friends and voting on which movie you're gonna see, bar you're gonna go to, or what restaurant to eat at.

 

 

It loses it's luster the more people you involve in it, and is generally downright ugly when you start enforcing what the majority wants

 

 

I think you are correct. Democracy is for trivial decisions. I don't think it's good as a type of community government, at all.

"There once was a loon that twitter


Before he went down the ****ter


In its demise he wasn't missed


Because there were bugs to be fixed."


~ Kaine


 


 


 

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There's more but this is the essence. Amazing that 2400 years ago Socrates had clearly seen what is happening right now.

Except that is not what is happening right now.

 

It's quite possibly the opposite.

 

 

 

Barothmuk do you ever counter by making your case or do you just post cynical "nopes" and then enjoy sitting there telling people they're wrong and not as smart as you without bothering to try and explain why they're wrong and justify your stance?

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"The Courier was the worst of all of them. The worst by far. When he died the first time, he must have met the devil, and then killed him."

 

 

Is your mom hot? It may explain why guys were following her ?

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Barothmuk do you ever counter by making your case or do you just post cynical "nopes" and then enjoy sitting there telling people they're wrong and not as smart as you without bothering to try and explain why they're wrong and justify your stance?

I’ll expand on a point or topic if I feel it’s something worth expanding upon and if it is likely my expanding will achieve anything (as I have done on numerous occasions on this forum). The majority of the time I’m just prodding to see others views, pick faults in others positions or to otherwise just be an annoying little ****head (my interaction with these forums is limited to when I’m looking for a quick distraction).

 

This particular instance was an example of me prodding to see where the OP was going with his train of argument. As I suspected it was no where good.

Edited by Barothmuk
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While I find the comparison agreeable I don't think that its accurate, Socrates criticism was of direct democracy. His belief regarding representative democracy was that the elected officials would become corrupt or couldn't adequately understand perspectives other than their own (e.g: rich man trying to find a solution  to help the poor)

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I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"*

 

*If you can't tell, it's you. ;)

village_idiot.gif

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The only problem with democracy is that people are to lazy and/or stupid to organize themselves. Then the democracy in effect belongs to those who are organized and opinionated.

 

I'd say the health of a democracy is proportional to the amount of grassroots engagement in political movements. Anyway, it's laughable hearing from people that democracy is a failure, especially when they give no other alternatives.

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"Well, overkill is my middle name. And my last name. And all of my other names as well!"

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me prodding to see where the OP was going with his train of argument.

 

 

You could've just asked. But its more comfortable to bask in oneself I know.

 

Current happenings clearly show that democracy tends to get more liberal over time. Which would further imply democracy is unsustainable in the long term.

 

It's due to heeding to everyone's demands in a compulsive manner, just for the sake of it, completely disregarding any logic, proportion or priorities. Especially favoring minorities and social fringe.

Eventually democracy is bound to overload and implode.

 

 

 His belief regarding representative democracy was that the elected officials would become corrupt or couldn't adequately understand perspectives other than their own (e.g: rich man trying to find a solution  to help the poor)

 

 

True as well.

 

 

Anyway, it's laughable hearing from people that democracy is a failure, especially when they give no other alternatives.

 

 

Its not like alternatives are prerequisites to criticize something. Its always good to communicate and criticize. Maybe in your twisted logic.

Edited by Luj1

"There once was a loon that twitter


Before he went down the ****ter


In its demise he wasn't missed


Because there were bugs to be fixed."


~ Kaine


 


 


 

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democracy is not a failure it is simply an illusion, since the best slave is the one who thinks he is free.

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The words freedom and liberty, are diminishing the true meaning of the abstract concept they try to explain. The true nature of freedom is such, that the human mind is unable to comprehend it, so we make a cage and name it freedom in order to give a tangible meaning to what we dont understand, just as our ancestors made gods like Thor or Zeus to explain thunder.

 

-Teknoman2-

What? You thought it was a quote from some well known wise guy from the past?

 

Stupidity leads to willful ignorance - willful ignorance leads to hope - hope leads to sex - and that is how a new generation of fools is born!


We are hardcore role players... When we go to bed with a girl, we roll a D20 to see if we hit the target and a D6 to see how much penetration damage we did.

 

Modern democracy is: the sheep voting for which dog will be the shepherd's right hand.

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Democracy is generally great if you're with a bunch of friends and voting on which movie you're gonna see, bar you're gonna go to, or what restaurant to eat at.

 

Y'think?

 

ruCaMCv.jpg

 

(of course, actual democracy is much worse, because you cannot choose not to be "at the party")

 

Seriously though, talking about "democracy" is like talking about "geometry". It's a concept so general that it's almost meaningless. Are we talking about "representative" democracy like we have now in the West? Perhaps the Athenian version Socrates was supposedly referring to and which (apparently unbeknownst to some users here) was actually not universal? Maybe the "soviet" direct democracy variant (like what briefly appeared during the October revolution in Russia and the 1956 revolution in Hungary, only to be quickly extinguished by Bolsheviks)? E-democracy? Those all produce very different results.

 

For good or ill, democracy is going to magnify the virtues and vices of those participating in it. Problems arising as a result are not a fault of democracy... they are a fault of people's. Sadly, in so-called democratic societies, you always have individuals arguing for tyranny, because statism solves all problems, ever.

 

If anything, democracy as an ideal is too optimistic about human nature. Even so, I prefer this to political models based on pessimism about humanity.

Edited by 213374U
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- When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.

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Worth noting is the Athenian democrats executed Socrates not long after, by making him drink Cicuta poison (i.e. poison hemlock), on the premise that he's spoiling Athenian youth. Lol.

You forgot the second charge of impiety.

Turns out that ancient Athens was lacking in religious tolerance.

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The main reason I like democracy is the people who hate it.

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"It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"."

             -Elwood Blues

 

tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp.

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The only problem with democracy is that people are to lazy and/or stupid to organize themselves. Then the democracy in effect belongs to those who are organized and opinionated.

 

I'd say the health of a democracy is proportional to the amount of grassroots engagement in political movements. Anyway, it's laughable hearing from people that democracy is a failure, especially when they give no other alternatives.

 

There are quite a lot of people think that there are alternatives, but for some reason it is usually through a violent revolution or through subversion into total nihilism. They usually think that they are the arbiters on how other people should live their lives. Fight them whenever you can.

"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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The main reason I like democracy is the people who hate it.

i dont see why someone should hate democracy or any other form of government... they are all equally flawed. each is convenient for some and not so much for others, while the trully rich are simply above and beyond

The words freedom and liberty, are diminishing the true meaning of the abstract concept they try to explain. The true nature of freedom is such, that the human mind is unable to comprehend it, so we make a cage and name it freedom in order to give a tangible meaning to what we dont understand, just as our ancestors made gods like Thor or Zeus to explain thunder.

 

-Teknoman2-

What? You thought it was a quote from some well known wise guy from the past?

 

Stupidity leads to willful ignorance - willful ignorance leads to hope - hope leads to sex - and that is how a new generation of fools is born!


We are hardcore role players... When we go to bed with a girl, we roll a D20 to see if we hit the target and a D6 to see how much penetration damage we did.

 

Modern democracy is: the sheep voting for which dog will be the shepherd's right hand.

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The main reason I like democracy is the people who hate it.

i dont see why someone should hate democracy or any other form of government... they are all equally flawed. each is convenient for some and not so much for others, while the trully rich are simply above and beyond

 

 

You're only saying that because you're jealous of my diamond underpants.

"It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"."

             -Elwood Blues

 

tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp.

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Especially favoring minorities and social fringe.

 

If there's one thing democracy doesn't do; it's favor minorities.

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"Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking.

 

I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.

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The main reason I like democracy is the people who hate it.

i dont see why someone should hate democracy or any other form of government... they are all equally flawed. each is convenient for some and not so much for others, while the trully rich are simply above and beyond

 

They are not "equally flawed". Some forms of government are simply better than others. So far representative republics have been very much out-performing despotism for example.

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"Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking.

 

I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.

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in the end what we all will get out of this life is a wooden box burried in a 3x8x6ft hole so i dont even bother to care

The words freedom and liberty, are diminishing the true meaning of the abstract concept they try to explain. The true nature of freedom is such, that the human mind is unable to comprehend it, so we make a cage and name it freedom in order to give a tangible meaning to what we dont understand, just as our ancestors made gods like Thor or Zeus to explain thunder.

 

-Teknoman2-

What? You thought it was a quote from some well known wise guy from the past?

 

Stupidity leads to willful ignorance - willful ignorance leads to hope - hope leads to sex - and that is how a new generation of fools is born!


We are hardcore role players... When we go to bed with a girl, we roll a D20 to see if we hit the target and a D6 to see how much penetration damage we did.

 

Modern democracy is: the sheep voting for which dog will be the shepherd's right hand.

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