Pillars of Future, new Engine

[DocDoomII]

It's still amazing. NWN looks like playing with Playmobil.

No Playmobil still looks better.

[Sleazebag]

I don't think anyone played NWN for the graphics. Besides, why would you think it was going to be a successor to BG? The plan for the game was to focus on mulltiplayer and user generated content from day one of development. I don't think they ever advertised it for it's single player. And I mean, HoTU was the only good single player campaign in it. If you didn't play multiplayer or the user made modules for the game you were kind of missing the point.

[DocDoomII]

I was thrilled because there was a guy doing the Lone Wolf gamebooks. But after the first module nothing more came out. So sad.

[argenti]

Agreed. The opening post isn't really well thought-out.

Why it would not be well thought out excuse?

 

I only made a suggestion for the future.

 

A 3d engine easy to use and probably cheap.

 

To me Dragon Age 2 and 3 are crap.

 

I like PoE, i like its lore, I like his ruleset.

 

I do not see why I should go somewhere else, as I suggest someone.

[Sleazebag]

The only user made module I remember was one specific for paladins which was pretty good (though it had a terribly cliched drow companion)

 

Oh and the honor among thieves one or whatever, but I remember that because it was absolutely horrid garbage yet had amazing reviews for some reason (don't play that mod, it has actually creepy and insane content and not in a good way)

[argenti]

I was thrilled because there was a guy doing the Lone Wolf gamebooks. But after the first module nothing more came out. So sad.

I remember that mod

[VioNectro]

The best looking cRPGs out of the blackisle bioware era are definitely the IE games with their pre-rendered+artistic touch up environments. NWN1 was a very nice game, but it didn't look nice to be honest. DA:O on PC's UI/control formula is the best formula if you are going to go 3d with this type of game, but honestly at the end of the day the 2d layered pre-renders are better.

 

I was just thinking now of the most memorable moment in NWN: some random guard on the gates of a mansion mistakes me for his lord and gives me his full report of everything inside and outside, my response? "Excelent!! Now die!" :DDD

[Kveldulf]

Thank you OP. I never heard of this title until now.

 

After visiting the Bare Mettle website, I'm somehow missing $60

Edited April 5, 2015 by Kveldulf

[Luj1]

 

I was just thinking now of the most memorable moment in NWN: some random guard on the gates of a mansion mistakes me for his lord and gives me his full report of everything inside and outside, my response? "Excelent!! Now die!" :DDD

 

 

:D

 

There was quite a several funny and awkward situations like that :D 

[Lexx]

Shadowrun Returns is actually 3D with a fixed camera angle. I like it.

Well, if you want to go this way... Pillars is actually 3D as well, with fixed camera angle and pre-rendered backgrounds. Most of the scenery objects in Shadowrun should be 2D graphics as well, if I remember correct.

[Archaven]

I love the physics. But this is hard for all of us as Obsidian do not have the resources in terms of monetary and knowledge to implement it.

[Luj1]

 

Agreed. The opening post isn't really well thought-out.

Why it would not be well thought out excuse?

 

I only made a suggestion for the future.

 

 

 

Sorry sweetie but a full 3D environment is never gonna happen for PoE or such isometric RPGs that are meant to succeed IE games. The idea here is a stylish, detailed 2D background, always have been. It just isn't realistic

Edited April 5, 2015 by Luj1

[Yenkaz]

Why do 3D environments matter? This game is bloody beautiful!

 

If anything, this game is a great reminder that you don't need amazing facial animations to convey interaction between characters. When I compare this game to DA:I, a game I've come to view as an example of trying to appease everybody, creating a beautiful game that feels hollow and almost like fanfiction, I don't miss the superior graphics at all. I'm not saying graphics don't matter, just that a more basic engine as the one used now allows to focus on the story and gameplay, perfectly choreographed and physically realistic fighting animations don't help with that. The more advanced the 3D engine is, the more effort has to go into making it work with the game, which necessarily means draining resources from other areas.

 

The animations are outdated now, but that hasn't kept this from being an enormous commercial success! This game is an astounding success. Sales, professional reviews and most importantly, users are breaking the expectations of most everybody. It did not achieve this by spending almost the entire budget on using the most advanced possible 3D engine to make it as sparkly as possible! I sincerely hope the expansions and possible sequels are made with the current priorities in mind.

[argenti]

Why do 3D environments matter? This game is bloody beautiful!

 

If anything, this game is a great reminder that you don't need amazing facial animations to convey interaction between characters. When I compare this game to DA:I, a game I've come to view as an example of trying to appease everybody, creating a beautiful game that feels hollow and almost like fanfiction, I don't miss the superior graphics at all. I'm not saying graphics don't matter, just that a more basic engine as the one used now allows to focus on the story and gameplay, perfectly choreographed and physically realistic fighting animations don't help with that. The more advanced the 3D engine is, the more effort has to go into making it work with the game, which necessarily means draining resources from other areas.

 

The animations are outdated now, but that hasn't kept this from being an enormous commercial success! This game is an astounding success. Sales, professional reviews and most importantly, users are breaking the expectations of most everybody. It did not achieve this by spending almost the entire budget on using the most advanced possible 3D engine to make it as sparkly as possible! I sincerely hope the expansions and possible sequels are made with the current priorities in mind.

Exactly, because it has had great success I think to the his future.

 

Soon will come out other tactical rpg and probably they will be 3d.

I think this Obsidian, has taken into reckoning.

[vattghern]

Going with that 3D engine after POE's beautiful backgrounds would be a downgrade akin to IE -> NWN.

[Caerdon]

To play the devil's advocate for a bit, even though I've always loved the graphics both in the original IE games and Eternity, I don't really care much whether the game uses 2D or 3D backgrounds, as long as the camera has fixed angle and the perspective distortion is kept modest (unlike in most RTS games for example where everything on the lower part of your screen is huge compared to the stuff above).

 

3D has its benefits, notably it would be easier for modders to deal with.

 

I'd still prefer the Eternity approach to cutscenes - the scripted interactions. Luckily a 3D engine doesn't necessitate in-engine cutscenes, a lot of developers just seem to forget that.

[Yellow Rabbit]

There is certain logic to it, albeit simple one. 3D is better than 2D because 3 is greater than 2.

 

Honestly, I can't imagine any other reasoning behind wish for PoE to move from render it has now.

[Luj1]

Moving to full 3D environment for PoE would kill its style so its a big no-no.

[Aotrs Commander]

As someone who does a bit of 3D modelling (albeit for 3D printing rather than games, but the principles are not that wildly dissimilar), I'll just make this point.

 

The problem with 3D - as evidenced particularly with NWN - is you have to make EVERYTHING. You want a table full of food? Right, you have to make a 3D model of all the food as individual elements. You want a different shaped room? You have to model that seperately. These things are really non-trivial in terms of time.

 

PoE's - and the old IE - way of handling things means that, with the fixed angle, you only have to draw a picture of the table. Draw a picture of the different shaped room. (Obviously, I'm over simplifying, but you get the idea.) Point is, it is FAR less resource intensive to do it this way that to have to model every tree - and why a lot of games, especially older ones, looked to so samey, because they had to reuse assets all the time. With pre-rendered drawing, you can get much more varity of character much more easily.

 

Imagine trying to model PS:T as a 3D game... It's take forever. Yes, if you had an unlimited budget (and time), 3D is great. In the real world I'll take the pre-rendered backgrounds any day of the week - especially if it means  get more content out of it at the end of the day.

 

(And, in my opinion, PS:T is the game all other should be striving to beat, since it is still unsurpassed by any contenders since.)

Edited April 5, 2015 by Aotrs Commander

[Caerdon]

As someone who does a bit of 3D modelling (albeit for 3D printing rather than games, but the principles are not that wildly dissimilar), I'll just make this point.

 

The problem with 3D - as evidenced particularly with NWN - is you have to make EVERYTHING. You want a table full of food? Right, you have to make a 3D model of all the food as individual elements. You want a different shaped room? You have to model that seperately. These things are really non-trivial in terms of time.

 

PoE's - and the old IE - way of handling things means that, with the fixed angle, you only have to draw a picture of the table. Draw a picture of the different shaped room. (Obviously, I'm over simplifying, but you get the idea.) Point is, it is FAR less resource intensive to do it this way that to have to model every tree - and why a lot of games, especially older ones, looked to so samey, because they had to reuse assets all the time. With pre-rendered drawing, you can get much more varity of character much more easily.

 

Imagine trying to model PS:T as a 3D game... It's take forever. Yes, if you had an unlimited budget (and time), 3D is great. In the real world I'll take the pre-rendered backgrounds any day of the week - especially if it means  get more content out of it at the end of the day.

 

(And, in my opinion, PS:T is the game all other should be striving to beat, since it is still unsurpassed by any contenders since.)

 

Uh... just about everything you see in-game, including tables and objects on them, have been modeled and pre-rendered. Same is true for PS:T. These games haven't been "painted by hand" like some people seem to think.

[argenti]

Going with that 3D engine after POE's beautiful backgrounds would be a downgrade akin to IE -> NWN.

Are you sure ?

 

 

 

 

[DocDoomII]

Fact is that with prerendered I don't need to change gpu.

That kind of 3D graphics would probably kill my old gtx 260.

[Caerdon]

Those both look pretty, but honestly, the one above looks better. And if you take gameplay into account, it's not even a contest. In the first picture you can see at a glance the difference between passable and impassable terrain, in the lower picture you can't.

[Yenkaz]

I don't think the second one is better, necessarily? It's so detailed that it actually becomes harder to notice landmarks.

 

And again, as someone pointed out, landscapes would become very samey, objects would have to be reused much more and they would have to start pulling the reuse of the same areas they did in DA:2 to make it just as big with the same effort. There is a frustrating connection between increasing the level of graphical detail, and the effort needed to create environments, which means that with much more advanced graphics, the game would have to be smaller, or the budget would have to go into landscaping instead of the writing.

[illathid]

 

Why do 3D environments matter? This game is bloody beautiful!

 

If anything, this game is a great reminder that you don't need amazing facial animations to convey interaction between characters. When I compare this game to DA:I, a game I've come to view as an example of trying to appease everybody, creating a beautiful game that feels hollow and almost like fanfiction, I don't miss the superior graphics at all. I'm not saying graphics don't matter, just that a more basic engine as the one used now allows to focus on the story and gameplay, perfectly choreographed and physically realistic fighting animations don't help with that. The more advanced the 3D engine is, the more effort has to go into making it work with the game, which necessarily means draining resources from other areas.

 

The animations are outdated now, but that hasn't kept this from being an enormous commercial success! This game is an astounding success. Sales, professional reviews and most importantly, users are breaking the expectations of most everybody. It did not achieve this by spending almost the entire budget on using the most advanced possible 3D engine to make it as sparkly as possible! I sincerely hope the expansions and possible sequels are made with the current priorities in mind.

Exactly, because it has had great success I think to the his future.

 

Soon will come out other tactical rpg and probably they will be 3d.

I think this Obsidian, has taken into reckoning.

 

 

I disagree. i think the best looking tactical rpg released for a while is Banner Saga:

 

As you can see, there's no 3d modeling in sight. Everything was drawn by hand. Granted, PoE doing something like this is about as likely as it going full 3d. But on a purely atheistic scale, 2d is better. 

 

P.S. Banner Saga 2 is coming out this year as well.

Edited April 5, 2015 by illathid