Twitter outrage over the "[spoiler]" quest

[Sleazebag]

As a true gamer, here is my opinion on the matter at hand *farts*

[Ekaros]

No sale, Ms. tweeter. I have no respect for 'gamers' who don't bother doing research. One of Obsidian's primary sales pitches for the PE kickstarter was that since there's no publisher, there'd be no content shackles. They promised us, over and over again, during the game's development, that the game *would* explore controversial issues and other taboos that Publisher-controlled games wouldn't normally be able to explore.

 

Yet here we are today, barely a week after the game's release, and already Obsidian is being asked, by people who were apparently unaware of the type of game they bought, to address the very content they promised to deliver and did deliver.

 

 

But as they already gave up to censorship why not just go rest of the way. Offending anyone is bad so why not remove anything offending. It's only a little things after all.

[ComradeGoby]

REMOVE IT

 

CENSOR EVERYTHING

 

ALL HAIL TWITTER SJW'S

 

True paragons of virtue and free thought

 

Only they should decided what's in the game cuck king Josh Sawyer agrees so he can get good boy points from his hipster liberal friends

[Stun]

But as they already gave up to censorship why not just go rest of the way. Offending anyone is bad so why not remove anything offending. It's only a little things after all.

Agreed. There's not enough Mario World and My Little Pony in PoE. I demand a franchise reboot.

 

:::: starts a twitter campaign :::::

[Isi1dur]

 

SJW's can sod off as far as i am concerned, if Obsidian caves to the outcry of twitter lunatics once more and anything else gets removed from this game i am done with it.

Why?

 

 

Because this game's content should not be dictated by the loud and obnoxious twitter wankers with nothing better to do in their lives other then trying to shove their BS down other people's throats.

 

We have an excellent, rich fantasy setting here, dark in tone which adds immensely to the overall quality of this fine RPG, so if they start pleasing the likes of that neo nazi, his "killallmen" buddy, the one who has a problem with killing children in fantasy RPG and the likes, we won't have the same quality game any longer.

 

Little things like these are the reason why Fallout 1 and 2 are considered one of the best in genre, it wasn't trying to cater to everyone, wasn't afraid of not being politically correct and gave a lot of freedom to the players which is why it still praised by PC RPG fans all over the place, though Twitter and it's SJW's weren't really a thing back then luckily.

 

If those people have an issue with everything that isn't roses and butterflies then this is not the game for them.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Isi1dur

[PrimeJunta]

Anyway, I honestly agree with you that Gears of War style machismo characters are boring...and this is part of why I don't play those kinds of games.  I just don't see it as some kind of systemic issue in gaming because there are plenty, plenty of games that have always featured diverse characters.

 

Do you see it differently?

 

Somewhat, yes. Definitely some genres are more space-mariney than others, but it is a systemic problem IMO, in that the exceptions tend to stand out. 

 

As a thought experiment, why don't you write down a list of, say, 30 games you've enjoyed over the years, and then underline the ones which had a non-white, non-male default protagonist, regardless of genre or whether they even have a protagonist.

 

I just did. My tally: 

 

One.

 

A good many had no protagonist at all (simulations, worldbuilding games, strategy games), and some but not all allowed you to pick a gender and race, usually with little to no reactivity to the choice. All except one of the games that had a fixed protagonist or offered a default choice were set to white male.

 

You could do this systematically. Say, take the top 10 most highly-praised games from the past 10 years, put them in a table, and mark which ones have women as protagonists or secondary characters with agency, which ones have them as murder victims to provide plot motivation, prizes to be won, titillation, background decoration, etc. etc., you would get a pretty lopsided table. This is in fact what Sarkeesian has been doing in her videos. You can argue that she's been too lopsided about it (I think she has and it significantly weakens her argument), but I think that the phenomenon is very real, and that you have to be a white straight male or really steeped in patriarchal culture not to notice.

 

So yeah, I do think this is a systemic problem. I also think the fight is already over bar the shouting: everybody from Harebrained Schemes to inXile, Obsidian to Electronic Arts is now paying attention and we are seeing much less oblivious racism and sexism and much more interesting and diverse characters. The GG'ers can howl all they want, but if they want to continue playing games while boycotting the "SJW's" they're going to be very short on games to play pretty soon.

 

And you know what else? In most of these games, you'll still be able to roll a white square-jawed space marine, if that's your fantasy. Which ought to count as a win for everyone, no?

[Luj1]

 

 

Only they should decided what's in the game cuz king Josh Sawyer agrees so he can get good boy points from his hipster liberal friends

 

 

 

 

Hahaha yeah I know. I like  Josh less and less every day. I thought he was a serious developer . I dislike him mainly for indulging to the liberal crowd, but also for over-engineering the combat system

 

EDIT: Also I feel the guy has an inferiority complex towards Avellone.... watch those press videos with all the developers and you will see Josh's face twitch every time Chris A. speaks of him

Edited April 4, 2015 by Luj1

[PrimeJunta]

BTW if it turns out this was a fake... ROFL. You SIJW's are super-easy to troll. I think I gotta makes some Twitter alts and see what I can stir up...

[eggdogg]

This thread delivers.

[Sleazebag]

 

 

 

Only they should decided what's in the game cuz king Josh Sawyer agrees so he can get good boy points from his hipster liberal friends

 

 

 

 

Hahaha yeah I know. I like  Josh less and less every day. I thought he was a serious developer . I dislike him mainly for indulging to the liberal crowd, but also for over-engineering the combat system

 

EDIT: Also I feel the guy has an inferiority complex towards Avellone.... watch those press videos with all the developers and you will see Josh's face twitch every time Chris A. speaks of him

 

What the hell is wrong with you, making this so personal?

[remiz]

Didn't read the whole thread because I don't want to spoiler too much for me.

BUT the two tweets from the initial post are just damn stupid....

 

"Were killing children now?" - Don't they get it's just a game?

 

I would even eat a whole bowl of my grandpa's poo within a videogame if it would give some XP. But in reallife?

C'mon I'm able to separate such things!

 

 

Please screenshot it.

[Duncan]

If anything gets changed after Twitter, I will record a video of me deleting or breaking all my obsidian products on camera, and I will never buy an obsidian product again. Do not get bullied. Yes, it's a mature rpg. If I want to kill a child, I ****ing will. Don't like it? Don't ****ing do it or play it. Enough with your reverse cyber bullying. Twats. (This last bit goes to those people complaining about the games content)

Edited April 4, 2015 by Duncan

[Stun]

Somewhat, yes. Definitely some genres are more space-mariney than others, but it is a systemic problem IMO, in that the exceptions tend to stand out.

 

As a thought experiment, why don't you write down a list of, say, 30 games you've enjoyed over the years, and then underline the ones which had a non-white, non-male default protagonist, regardless of genre or whether they even have a protagonist.

 

I just did. My tally:

 

One.

 

A good many had no protagonist at all (simulations, worldbuilding games, strategy games), and some but not all allowed you to pick a gender and race, usually with little to no reactivity to the choice. All except one of the games that had a fixed protagonist or offered a default choice were set to white male.

 

You could do this systematically. Say, take the top 10 most highly-praised games from the past 10 years, put them in a table, and mark which ones have women as protagonists or secondary characters with agency, which ones have them as murder victims to provide plot motivation, prizes to be won, titillation, background decoration, etc. etc., you would get a pretty lopsided table. This is in fact what Sarkeesian has been doing in her videos. You can argue that she's been too lopsided about it (I think she has and it significantly weakens her argument), but I think that the phenomenon is very real, and that you have to be a white straight male or really steeped in patriarchal culture not to notice.

 

So yeah, I do think this is a systemic problem. I also think the fight is already over bar the shouting: everybody from Harebrained Schemes to inXile, Obsidian to Electronic Arts is now paying attention and we are seeing much less oblivious racism and sexism and much more interesting and diverse characters. The GG'ers can howl all they want, but if they want to continue playing games while boycotting the "SJW's" they're going to be very short on games to play pretty soon.

 

And you know what else? In most of these games, you'll still be able to roll a white square-jawed space marine, if that's your fantasy. Which ought to count as a win for everyone, no?

^ this is all probably true, but the White Male Protagonist cliché is not a gender/racial commentary so much as a confirmed marketing truism. Bethesda, for example, did not plaster the muscle-bound, white Nord warrior all over their Skyrim ads because they were "racist", or " socially non-progressive" or whatever. They did it because...Sales. Because 1) the white male gamer is the biggest gaming demographic; 2) marketing logic dictates that to attract a demographic, a game must send the message that they'll be able to enjoy it vicariously. Skyrim....would not have sold 3 million copies on DAY ONE if its canon protagonist was a lizard woman.

 

The time will eventually come (because the metrics are slowly showing it) where there will be just as many Female gamers as Male gamers. And when this happens, rest assured that we'll start seeing a lot more Female protagonists as default for games.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Stun

[Luj1]

 

 

 

 

Only they should decided what's in the game cuz king Josh Sawyer agrees so he can get good boy points from his hipster liberal friends

 

 

 

 

Hahaha yeah I know. I like  Josh less and less every day. I thought he was a serious developer . I dislike him mainly for indulging to the liberal crowd, but also for over-engineering the combat system

 

EDIT: Also I feel the guy has an inferiority complex towards Avellone.... watch those press videos with all the developers and you will see Josh's face twitch every time Chris A. speaks of him

 

What the hell is wrong with you, making this so personal?

 

 

Josh was the first who jumped to indulge that person on Twitter and we have proof because that person thanked him personally on twitter for listening to him/her

 

and we know Josh is biased toward the liberal hipsters because of the beard he fancies

[Luj1]

If anything gets changed after Twitter again, I will record a video of me deleting and breaking all my obsidian products on camera (and I will never buy an obsidian product again)

 

DUDEEEE If you do that, I will do the same ... we can make a compilation of breaking obsidian products !

Edited April 4, 2015 by Luj1

[PrimeJunta]

Can I come over to break your Obsidian products? I have my own hammer.

[Atheosis]

Obsidian isn't going to change actual game content over a twitter complaint.  Chill out.

[mrmonocle]

Holy Batman! Look what I have done:

 

 

That game is only 18 years old.

yes!

[PrimeJunta]

^ this is all probably true, but the White Male Protagonist cliché is not a gender/racial commentary so much as a confirmed marketing truism. Bethesda, for example, did not plaster the muscle-bound, white Nord warrior all over their Skyrim ads because they were "racist", or "non-progressive" or "socially unaware" they did it because...Sales. Because 1) the white male gamer is their biggest demographic 2) marketing logic dictates that to attract a demographic, you've got to relate to them directly. Skyrim....would not have sold 3 million copies on DAY ONE if its canon protagonist was an ugly lizard woman.

The time will eventually come (because the metrics are slowly showing it) that there are just as many Female gamers as Male gamers. And when this happens, rest assured that we'll start seeing a lot more Female protagonists as default for games.

 

This is true. 

 

It's a feedback cycle though. If games are marketed more to non-white-non-males, more non-white-non-males will play them. Conversely, if they're marketed to white males, it's hardly surprising that non-white non-male gamers are odd outliers. 

 

I think it's worth pushing at one end and pulling at the other: getting studios to make and market games for more diverse audiences, and getting more and different people to play them. In this stupid capitalist system we have though the latter is quite difficult without the former, which is why a lot of the push is focused on changing the marketing and general cishetwhitemaleness of the games themselves.

[Luj1]

Obsidian isn't going to change actual game content over a twitter complaint.  Chill out.

 

 

Yeah we know..... coz they already did it once LOL

 

 

 

and twice

 

 

 

and thrice

 

 

 

do you see where this is going

[Achilleslastand]

I wish these people using social media trying to be the thought police would up and vanish.

And while were at social media can vanish as well.

[Atheosis]

 

Obsidian isn't going to change actual game content over a twitter complaint.  Chill out.

 

 

Yeah we know..... coz they already did it once LOL

 

 

 

and twice

 

 

 

and thrice

 

 

 

do you see where this is going

 

 

What on earth are you on about?  The limerick wasn't actual game content created by Obsidian.  It was just junk allowed into the game for the sake of a backer.

[Namutree]

 

 

 

Because this game's content should not be dictated by the loud and obnoxious twitter wankers with nothing better to do in their lives other then trying to shove their BS down other people's throats.

I agree. Luckily it's not. It's dictated by Obsidian and the altered backer content was done with the complete consent of said backer. Some say Obsidian would have changed it even without his consent, but it's dumb to be angry at Obsidian over what ifs.

 

 

 

 

We have an excellent, rich fantasy setting here, dark in tone which adds immensely to the overall quality of this fine RPG, so if they start pleasing the likes of that neo nazi, his "killallmen" buddy, the one who has a problem with killing children in fantasy RPG and the likes, we won't have the same quality game any longer.

 

Quit playing when that happens rather than before that happens.

[ComradeGoby]

I hope Obsidian removes these other backer epitaphs

 

I assume they weren't VETTED

 

[Creslin321]

 

Anyway, I honestly agree with you that Gears of War style machismo characters are boring...and this is part of why I don't play those kinds of games.  I just don't see it as some kind of systemic issue in gaming because there are plenty, plenty of games that have always featured diverse characters.

 

Do you see it differently?

 

Somewhat, yes. Definitely some genres are more space-mariney than others, but it is a systemic problem IMO, in that the exceptions tend to stand out. 

 

As a thought experiment, why don't you write down a list of, say, 30 games you've enjoyed over the years, and then underline the ones which had a non-white, non-male default protagonist, regardless of genre or whether they even have a protagonist.

 

I just did. My tally: 

 

One.

 

A good many had no protagonist at all (simulations, worldbuilding games, strategy games), and some but not all allowed you to pick a gender and race, usually with little to no reactivity to the choice. All except one of the games that had a fixed protagonist or offered a default choice were set to white male.

 

You could do this systematically. Say, take the top 10 most highly-praised games from the past 10 years, put them in a table, and mark which ones have women as protagonists or secondary characters with agency, which ones have them as murder victims to provide plot motivation, prizes to be won, titillation, background decoration, etc. etc., you would get a pretty lopsided table. This is in fact what Sarkeesian has been doing in her videos. You can argue that she's been too lopsided about it (I think she has and it significantly weakens her argument), but I think that the phenomenon is very real, and that you have to be a white straight male or really steeped in patriarchal culture not to notice.

 

So yeah, I do think this is a systemic problem. I also think the fight is already over bar the shouting: everybody from Harebrained Schemes to inXile, Obsidian to Electronic Arts is now paying attention and we are seeing much less oblivious racism and sexism and much more interesting and diverse characters. The GG'ers can howl all they want, but if they want to continue playing games while boycotting the "SJW's" they're going to be very short on games to play pretty soon.

 

And you know what else? In most of these games, you'll still be able to roll a white square-jawed space marine, if that's your fantasy. Which ought to count as a win for everyone, no?

 

 

Sure, I'll bite.  I'm going to really try to be fair with my selection here and not cherry pick.  So I think the best way to do that is just to pick the first 29 games (alphabetically) that I have installed in Steam, as well as Bloodborne that I'm playing right now on PS4.

 

So of those games, here is what I found:

 

21 allow you to either create or select a character of either gender.

3 have no protagonist

3 have a male only protagonist

3 have a female only protagonist

 

Now to be fair, I play mainly RPGs, strategy games, MOBAs, and indie games, so that's kind of what you would expect I suppose.

 

But I hope you can see why I don't see this as a systemic problem.  It's only a systemic problem when you look at very specific genres, namely FPS and action adventure games.

 

Granted, those genres are some of the more popular ones.  On the other hand, MOBA is the most popular genre in existence and nearly EVERY MOBA allows you to select male or female heroes.

 

All in all, I just think the argument that this is a systemic issue is very poorly stated.  It generalize two specific genres of games to "all games" while basically ignoring all other genres of games.

 

Also, all the companies you listed that are now starting to have more diversity in games ALWAYS had diversity, except maybe EA, they are so big it's hard to determine.  They are all RPG developers, and  RPGs have featured diverse casts of characters since the 80's.  Nothing has really changed.

 

I mean look at Final Fantasy 6, a woman was essentially the main character (Terra) and it had another strong female general character.  Look at the Ultima series, that series is SUPER old, and it's always had female party members.

 

I feel that the games you see as problematic seem that way because they are the video game equivalent of Michael Bay movies.  They aren't supposed to have deeply defined characters.  They exist so people can blow crap up.

 

Thankfully, there are other game genres that cater to gamers, like myself, and presumably you as well, who want a deeper experience.  And these games will inevitably feature more diversity, because as you yourself said, lantern jawed space marines are boring.

 

Despite my distaste for "Michael Bay" video games, I have no issue with them existing.  And I don't really think they dominate the marketplace as much as some believe.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Creslin321