Why allow resting in dungeons at all?

[sorrowofwind]

Isn't there a spell in D&D that allows you to teleport to a safe place in different plane to rest?  Replace camp with that spell (scroll) and everything would make much more sense. 

 

"Consuming" spell scroll also feels more logical than consuming a whole camp per use.  You don't even need to change the ingame content, just the text fluff. 

 

Maybe wait for a mod to change the icon and text or something. 

Edited March 31, 2015 by sorrowofwind

[Jasta11]

Rest as a mechanic requires lots of suspension of disbelief. You often rest for 8 hours not even 30 feet away from the next pack of monsters, who are polite enough for you to wait until you're done with your bedtime stories before trying to spray your insides over the walls. It was particularily silly in Irenicus's Dungeon. ''Oh noes, we have to make our escape from the hideout of the big bad mage NOW! but we have more than enough time for a nap or three''. 

 

Yes, yes this is a fantasy game and yadda yadda, but it still hurts immersion. Or ''versimilitude'' since that's the politically correct replacement often used. 

 

Honestly I would have been OK with doing away with rest entirely and tie ressource management to a different mechanic (like, say, limited potions ala Dragon Age Inquisition, and limit spells per encounter). 

[Nukenin]

I believe in Pillars of Eternity when you rest "in the wild" (including in dungeons et al) you actually crawl into your magically available (or always available, depending on your game settings) Stash which apparently can hold enough air to allow up to six humanoid types precisely 8 hours of uninterrupted slumber.  Or maybe 6-7 of those are slumber, and the remainder spell preparation or whatnot.  Maybe some light reading, a few rounds of spin the bottle, and calisthenics.  Maybe an omelet or three?  "Camp supplies" can be pretty open to interpretation.  Are camp followers included?

[termokanden]

Am I the only one who is actually happy with the current system?

 

I'm finding that for me it works exactly as intended. I don't rest constantly as I did in BG just to be able to spam my most powerful spells, and I use my spells pretty naturally as needed, resting when my party is too worn-out to continue. As for the realism, I find it semi-important but... meh. There comes a point when I'd rather just have fun gameplay.

Edited March 31, 2015 by termokanden

[kryadan]

 

 

Play on hard : only 2 rests in one dungeon.

 

 

Not entirely correct as you can find more campfire in said dungeon.

 

 

Yep.

 

Are dungeons locked? Can't you use the two, walk outside and buy two more and then come back? Or walk outside, rest and go back in etc

Edited March 31, 2015 by kryadan

[ProjectBG2Respawn]

 

 

Well, I don't see the problem with resting in Raedric's hold since you're (Warning spoiler Raedric's Hold)

basically under cover (And you can even speak with your priest friend to rest so...). Also once you've killed the nasty animancer I don't see why you wouldn't be able to sleep here, not like anyone was coming here anyway.

 

 

On hard I only had to rest once in Raedric's Hold, so not that much when you think about it.

To justify it RP speaking, you can picture your team finding a safe enough place and having a watch. Not very realistic in a castle but in a dungeon... could be.

 

 

EDIT : I also think people try to play too much like in other RPG. IE veteran by spamming spell because they can rest as much as they want after anyway, and younger player because usually you can use your spells as much as you want. It just take some adjustement to see spells like a limited ressource. If it can play just switch your mage with a Cipher so you can spam spells as much as you need.

 

Ciphers aren't restricted ? Good to know

 

They actually use a ressource called "Focus". You can use your spells when you have enought Focus, and you gain focus by inflicting damage. So you're not really restricted. Same kinf of stuff with Chanters who can cast buff non-stop and when they've cast enough they unlock some kind of "Greater spell".

 

 

Yeah i love the names of the chanter's spells : so epic

[Nukenin]

And it's completely optional.  I believe you even have the opportunity to cancel should you somehow hit the interface button by accident.

 

My one minor quibble is one echoed by others—if you are at your camp supply limit, "looting" more camp supplies should do nothing (right now they go to inventory or Stash, then are taken out of that location and added to your camp supply total—so if you are already at your limit, they effectively disappear).

 

Perhaps they can add an option (one not under the "expert mode" grab bag) to disable camping "in the wild" entirely (i.e. any camping that would consume camp supplies, but not the "free" camping you can attain at certain locations like campsites) and that would also hide camping supplies from loot windows and merchants.

 

And then, options being optional, everyone would be happy.  

[ProjectBG2Respawn]

 

Stop wanting realistic gameplay dudes.

 

I can't belive it, you fight against dragons, undead, wizards, you can heal your wounds by resting, you can read souls and all : but you find illogical to rest in a dungeon.

 

 

You know there's a way to play like you want, it's called roleplay. You don't wanna rest cuz you find it not RP ? So don't. I can't see your point.

That's a terrible excuse. It's a fantasy game, and so of course that is going to be the setting, and it will make certain aspects of the game unrealistic in that sense. So we accept the premise of the world being aproximately like our own, with the exception that "here there be monsters" etc. But within that setting, things better be realistic, to the extent that it doesn't make the game un-fun. So that some game-mechanic or feature isn't realistic can certainly be excused, e.g. I don't miss being able to go to the toilet, because it would just be a chore. But if some mechanic is needlesly unrealistic, or the unrealistic-ness of it, kills immersion, that's a completely valid complaint.

 

I agree that the notion of resting just next to some monster is kind of annoying because it's unrealistic, so I woulnd't mind if they included some chance encounter based on the hostility of the place. On the other hand, back in the old IE games, I honestly just reloaded. And that's worse, and less immersive than the current system. 

 

And a note on RP. Some people play these games because the game does most of the RP'ing for them. I want a game where I can sit back, and let it do that work for me.

 

 

You said i quote : "I don't miss being able to go to the toilet, because it would just be a chore."

 

Same thing here : i don't miss go outside the dungeon to rest.

[ProjectBG2Respawn]

 

 

 

Play on hard : only 2 rests in one dungeon.

 

 

Not entirely correct as you can find more campfire in said dungeon.

 

 

Yep.

 

Are dungeons locked? Can't you use the two, walk outside and buy two more and then come back? Or walk outside, rest and go back in etc

 

 

The topic is "rest in dungeons".

[kryadan]

 

 

 

 

Play on hard : only 2 rests in one dungeon.

 

 

Not entirely correct as you can find more campfire in said dungeon.

 

 

Yep.

 

Are dungeons locked? Can't you use the two, walk outside and buy two more and then come back? Or walk outside, rest and go back in etc

 

 

The topic is "rest in dungeons".

 

Indeed, but I was curious if there was a mechanic to Hard I was unaware of, so I thought I would ask.

[Gallenger]

It's not that far fetched, people sleep in some pretty precarious situations fairly regularly.  Granted, walking up, seeing another encounter, and then stepping back and resting is a bit on the cheesy side - bringing back "you have been awakened by enemies and must defend yourself" wouldn't be a bad idea. 

 

In the tabletop realm I remember having numerous discussions about our intricate set ups - from using climbing pitons to seal doors shut, to complex bell networks, alarm spells, so on and so forth.  Of course an alternative would be "rope-trick" type environments which are designed specifically so as to allow you to rest in precarious situations without a great deal of threat - which could be another option. 

[ProjectBG2Respawn]

 

 

 

 

 

Play on hard : only 2 rests in one dungeon.

 

 

Not entirely correct as you can find more campfire in said dungeon.

 

 

Yep.

 

Are dungeons locked? Can't you use the two, walk outside and buy two more and then come back? Or walk outside, rest and go back in etc

 

 

The topic is "rest in dungeons".

 

Indeed, but I was curious if there was a mechanic to Hard I was unaware of, so I thought I would ask.

 

 

OK i though your question was rethorical sorry.

 

No you can go in and out of dungeons in hard there are no restrictions (except in raedric's keep but that's a bug lol)

[Luckmann]

I personally wouldn't mind both rest area restrictions and limited supply. I think that the "only 2 camping supplies" on Hard is.. odd, though. You're six people, but you can only carry 2 between the lot of you? Eh..

 

Because you also can do it in normal D&D?

 

I never encountered it but there should be a chance of getting attacked while resting and the longer you are in these dungeons the more should it occur in my opinion.  Worst thing for me is that you can go in and out a dungeon, travel to the city, get more camping supplies and then go straight in without repopulating the area.

Heh, if your GM allows you to do it in D&D, you've got a terribad GM.

[Xionanx]

IMO Resting in a Dungeon only makes sense if the dungeon re-spawns if you leave.  Leave to go back to town?  Guess what, dungeon completely repopulates

Camp inside?  No re-spawn since you didn't actually "leave".

 

But.. since there is NO re-spawn and NO random encounters AFAIK, this is 0 incentive not to clear a few fights, then pack up and go back to town only to come back days later and do it again.

 

The rest system is bad.. just so very very bad.

 

Dragon Age Origins was a completely NEW system (like PoE) that was based on RT "IE" style combat.. and guess what, they managed to pull off NOT RESTING.  Yet it managed to be more balanced then PoE. (not saying DA:O didn't have it own set of problems)

 

If PoE manages to get a sequel, here's hoping they completely scrap this combat system in favor of something more fleshed out.  Countless threads here and elsewhere have already pointed out its many flaws...

[wanderon]

And it's completely optional.  I believe you even have the opportunity to cancel should you somehow hit the interface button by accident.

 

My one minor quibble is one echoed by others—if you are at your camp supply limit, "looting" more camp supplies should do nothing (right now they go to inventory or Stash, then are taken out of that location and added to your camp supply total—so if you are already at your limit, they effectively disappear).

 

Perhaps they can add an option (one not under the "expert mode" grab bag) to disable camping "in the wild" entirely (i.e. any camping that would consume camp supplies, but not the "free" camping you can attain at certain locations like campsites) and that would also hide camping supplies from loot windows and merchants.

 

And then, options being optional, everyone would be happy.  

 

Actually on either hard or normal difficulty once you reach your camp supply limit you can no longer purchase or remove supplies from a container - you can attempt to buy them but the transaction will not go through and if you try to remove them from a container they will remain there - I've been using the note section of the journal to keep track of places I had to leave them in case I want to go back for them.

[LeBurns]

IMO Resting in a Dungeon only makes sense if the dungeon re-spawns if you leave.  Leave to go back to town?  Guess what, dungeon completely repopulates

Camp inside?  No re-spawn since you didn't actually "leave".

 

But.. since there is NO re-spawn and NO random encounters AFAIK, this is 0 incentive not to clear a few fights, then pack up and go back to town only to come back days later and do it again.

 

The rest system is bad.. just so very very bad.

 

Dragon Age Origins was a completely NEW system (like PoE) that was based on RT "IE" style combat.. and guess what, they managed to pull off NOT RESTING.  Yet it managed to be more balanced then PoE. (not saying DA:O didn't have it own set of problems)

 

If PoE manages to get a sequel, here's hoping they completely scrap this combat system in favor of something more fleshed out.  Countless threads here and elsewhere have already pointed out its many flaws...

 

I like the idea of respawning if you re-enter a dungeon in this game, especially since you can't use that to grind for exp like you can in other games.  No exp, you just have to clear them out again.

[Brimsurfer]

Many complaints I see in these forums relate to the endurance/health system, pre-buffing and spell uses per day. Obsidian had many goals when designing this RPG system, such as the reduction of rest spamming to clear dungeons. Arguably it may even be worse in this game than in BG2 with the way health and healing works, particularly with teleporting shadows one-hitting weaker characters at the start of the game.

 

My question is this: why wasn't the game designed around a system that forbids resting in hostile locations such as dungeons? It took my characters around 3 days to invade Readrics Hold. Resting uninterrupted for 8 hours each time during a castle assault seems rather silly to me. In fact, with enough camping supplies you can spend weeks invading the castle. I also don't feel like I rest any more or less than I did during BG1 & BG2.

 

After 15 hours playing this game my only real gripe is that Obsidian's solutions to these age-old cRPG problems seem to be over-engineered and arguably ineffective.

 

Because you CAN actually rest in a Dungeon. I dont see any logical flaw here, I actually kinda like to be able rest  once or twice in a long dungeon and logically its very much possible with a possibility of getting ambushed. What would you do if you are badly fatigued or injured and can't really go on? Wouldn't you rest? You don't really have a choice there, you HAVE to rest otherwise you are dead anyway if you try to keep going.

 

Even if there is no option of resting and you are injured and can't go on, then what makes you think you can leave the dungeon? Escaping the dungeon or leaving it would be just as dangerous, at least when you rest you can fortify your position.

[Nukenin]

 

Actually on either hard or normal difficulty once you reach your camp supply limit you can no longer purchase or remove supplies from a container - you can attempt to buy them but the transaction will not go through and if you try to remove them from a container they will remain there - I've been using the note section of the journal to keep track of places I had to leave them in case I want to go back for them.

 

 

I've definitely not been able to purchase them but perhaps I've not rechecked looted containers from which they've "disappeared" (I usually use the "loot all" button to Stash if I'm not specifically looting a specific item to a specific character in a specific fashion, specifically [i may be remiss on the specifics here]).  If the containers still "gray out" even with contents remaining that could be the basis of my own misperception.

 

I'd just turn this into "free camp!" if I had any benefit to doing so, then (re)loot the camp supply.  

[Felius]

On resting in Dungeons: In what adventurers generally call Dungeons, it's not so bad. That is, if there's no group or force that would mount an organized response to them, yeah, I can see that happening. Setting watches, barring doors, and so forth are a given, mind you, but random unintelligent and/or wandering monsters in a dungeon (or other groups of glorified grave robbers and looters adventurers) are unlikely to make a concentrated effort to kill them while they rest or overly prepare to kill you once you break up camp. Making a metaphor, it's like setting camp somewhere with dangerous animals: If they stumble upon you or vice versa, they'd probably try to eat your face off, but otherwise they aren't likely to change their behavior and routine because of you and your camp either. Sure, it's a bit of a stretch that there's no chance for random encounters or for the monsters next room not to walk out to you, but tolerable enough, let's call that an abstraction of finding a room that they could barricade themselves in or something.

 

Now, on the other hand, camping somewhere where there's intelligent beings living there as a group but hostile to you, like an "active" castle that you are infiltrating or attacking? That's bull****. If you didn't killed any of the guards or actual pets, maybe, or if you killed someone who barely interacted with the rest of the castle (Say, the monsters, the undead and that Animancer beneath Raedric's Keep), I could see it happening for maybe a while before people start finding it weird and sending someone to see why no heard from her in so long. But if you killed a bunch of guards in the middle of the ramparts and/or just in front the throne room, and then went to rest for 8 hours and there is no reaction to it? That's entirely bull****. You might get away with "vanishing" a small handful of guards if you are careful in getting rid of all evidence, with people assuming they went AWOL or suffered some accident, specially if it's a dangerous location ("He probably went take a piss and got eaten by a Forest Troll"). But with enough guards vanishing and leaving no trace? Yeah, no. Even if you are the master of Stealth, at least it'd be needed to see more guards being hired and patrols increased and relocated, while paranoia goes the hell up about it.

 

Of course, that dynamic would be rather hard to program, but even a bit of a restriction of resting in "civilized but hostile places" along with a respawn of enemies if you go rest somewhere else would be rather nice.

[Brimsurfer]

 

IMO Resting in a Dungeon only makes sense if the dungeon re-spawns if you leave.  Leave to go back to town?  Guess what, dungeon completely repopulates

Camp inside?  No re-spawn since you didn't actually "leave".

 

But.. since there is NO re-spawn and NO random encounters AFAIK, this is 0 incentive not to clear a few fights, then pack up and go back to town only to come back days later and do it again.

 

The rest system is bad.. just so very very bad.

 

Dragon Age Origins was a completely NEW system (like PoE) that was based on RT "IE" style combat.. and guess what, they managed to pull off NOT RESTING.  Yet it managed to be more balanced then PoE. (not saying DA:O didn't have it own set of problems)

 

If PoE manages to get a sequel, here's hoping they completely scrap this combat system in favor of something more fleshed out.  Countless threads here and elsewhere have already pointed out its many flaws...

 

I like the idea of respawning if you re-enter a dungeon in this game, especially since you can't use that to grind for exp like you can in other games.  No exp, you just have to clear them out again.

 

I dont like the idea of mobs automatically respawning in dungeons, its not Diablo. I like to see the result of my actions as changing force in the game world.

 

However a cleared dungeon may get *repopulated* by enemies (there is a conceptual difference) but then we must have a different quest or reason to clear out that dungeon. 

[Brimsurfer]

....................................................................................

 

Dragon Age Origins was a completely NEW system (like PoE) that was based on RT "IE" style combat.. and guess what, they managed to pull off NOT RESTING.  Yet it managed to be more balanced then PoE. (not saying DA:O didn't have it own set of problems)

..............................................................................

 

DA pulled off without the resting mechanics, because in that game spells and abilities don't need to replenished by resting and in that game recovering health was no problem. And DA games are easy as a pie even on the hardest difficulty. DA series stands against all that is considered holy and sacred in D&D games. 

 

I see DA series as an attempt to streamline RPGs into Action games with minor or semi-RPG elements, since it is NOT developed by the Bioware that brought us great RPGs like BG and KOTOR, but instead most of the DA team comes from the background of console action games such as Gears of Wars and Halo. 

 

And I dont want to play a medieval themed Gears of War game where my character gains a new ability every level. I want to play a real RPG like this game 'Pillars of Eternity'.

[Rapscallion]

I fear that some people misinterpreted my original post.

 

This is not a complaint about realism, or even so much about RPing or the gameplay mechanics.

 

PoE was designed from the ground up using knowledge acquired from years of game-making to solve many of the little issues that are typical of cRPGs. You've only got to look at the primary attributes to see this.

 

My concern is that the rest system is still highly problematic, and seems to be the primary cause of many of the other iffy gameplay mechanics in this game. I wonder why the game could not be built upon a different system - i.e. rebalanced such that there was no resting while 'on mission'.

[Nukenin]

 

....................................................................................

 

Dragon Age Origins was a completely NEW system (like PoE) that was based on RT "IE" style combat.. and guess what, they managed to pull off NOT RESTING.  Yet it managed to be more balanced then PoE. (not saying DA:O didn't have it own set of problems)

..............................................................................

 

DA pulled off without the resting mechanics, because in that game spells and abilities don't need to replenished by resting and in that game recovering health was no problem. And DA games are easy as a pie even on the hardest difficulty. DA series stands against all that is considered holy and sacred in D&D games. 

 

I see DA series as an attempt to streamline RPGs into Action games with minor or semi-RPG elements, since it is NOT developed by the Bioware that brought us great RPGs like BG and KOTOR, but instead most of the DA team comes from the background of console action games such as Gears of Wars and Halo. 

 

And I dont want to play a medieval themed Gears of War game where my character gains a new ability every level. I want to play a real RPG like this game 'Pillars of Eternity'.

 

 

The lead programmer on Dragon Age: Origins worked on both Baldur's Gate (design credit) and Knights of the Old Republic (programmer credit).  There are other examples to discover when investigating the credits of all three games to demonstrate that DA:O was indeed developed by the very same BioWare that brought us BG and KotOR.

 

I am sure you were thinking of/referring to Dragon Age II onward, but you were replying to a comment that only referred to Dragon Age: Origins.

[Brimsurfer]

 

 

....................................................................................

 

Dragon Age Origins was a completely NEW system (like PoE) that was based on RT "IE" style combat.. and guess what, they managed to pull off NOT RESTING.  Yet it managed to be more balanced then PoE. (not saying DA:O didn't have it own set of problems)

..............................................................................

 

DA pulled off without the resting mechanics, because in that game spells and abilities don't need to replenished by resting and in that game recovering health was no problem. And DA games are easy as a pie even on the hardest difficulty. DA series stands against all that is considered holy and sacred in D&D games. 

 

I see DA series as an attempt to streamline RPGs into Action games with minor or semi-RPG elements, since it is NOT developed by the Bioware that brought us great RPGs like BG and KOTOR, but instead most of the DA team comes from the background of console action games such as Gears of Wars and Halo. 

 

And I dont want to play a medieval themed Gears of War game where my character gains a new ability every level. I want to play a real RPG like this game 'Pillars of Eternity'.

 

 

The lead programmer on Dragon Age: Origins worked on both Baldur's Gate (design credit) and Knights of the Old Republic (programmer credit).  There are other examples to discover when investigating the credits of all three games to demonstrate that DA:O was indeed developed by the very same BioWare that brought us BG and KotOR.

 

I am sure you were thinking of/referring to Dragon Age II onward, but you were replying to a comment that only referred to Dragon Age: Origins.

 

 

Yea only DA:O, iirc... but look what happened to the series after DA:O or the direction it headed into, now its just gears of war in DA skin....DA:O was the only decent RPG in the series and even then it was a walk in the park even at the highest difficulty in comparison to BG or PS:T or IWD or any other old school RPGs.

 

I like the idea of resting and replenishing the spells and what not....... its completely in line D&D rules........absence of rest and auto replenishment makes the challenge kind of pointless. 

Edited March 31, 2015 by Brimsurfer

[Brimsurfer]

I fear that some people misinterpreted my original post.

 

This is not a complaint about realism, or even so much about RPing or the gameplay mechanics.

 

PoE was designed from the ground up using knowledge acquired from years of game-making to solve many of the little issues that are typical of cRPGs. You've only got to look at the primary attributes to see this.

 

My concern is that the rest system is still highly problematic, and seems to be the primary cause of many of the other iffy gameplay mechanics in this game. I wonder why the game could not be built upon a different system - i.e. rebalanced such that there was no resting while 'on mission'.

 

Rest system is not problematic (you should rephrase that *YOU think its problematic* ). But instead rest system encourages a highly efficient play style and it highly discourages wastefulness and extravagance, it encourages people to devise strategies that they wouldn't have thought about otherwise......i guess you are a new generation player who is just simply not use to it.

 

Just try to work with it, it'll grow on you and then you won't like anything else.

 

As a side note, there was a recent RPG 'early access' release, called 'Darkest Dungeon', its still in development.....but it does bring some innovation in the concept of rest system, where it introduces only rest specific abilities where certain powerful buffs can be cast only while you are resting and every class has its own rest spells or abilities. I believe devs or modders may be able to learn something here. We may be able to make the rest system more interesting and add some strategical value to it, rather than just the replenishing the resources. 

Edited March 31, 2015 by Brimsurfer