Stronghold Immersion

[Elfwyn]

First of all I can't thank Obsidian enough for bringing us this brilliant piece of art!

 

I have hardly anything to criticize, but I don't want to hold back either, because I think the game could get even better with a little more work.

 

The only thing that feels rather "strange" to me is the Stronghold. While the base mechanics of it are more than adequate, the execution seems out of place in the otherwise perfect suroundings.

 

The first thing I asked myself was:

How does "she" contact the stone masons and workers in her current form?

Where are the people that are working on the different upgrades?

Who is the one collecting the income (the grounds seem quite empty)?

Who are the subjects that pay taxes and

why do they pay taxes to a person who just seems to be accepted "by the stronghold"?

 

I would welcome at least an explanation how this is supposed to happen in the world:

 

On the other hand these are good opportuinities to get small tasks to for example hire a small work force or guards in the city or getting "her" a sort of Avatar to better handle the Construction coordination. Visit the people in the surrounding lands.

A few Worker-NPCs wandering around the construction sites would also benefit the immersion.

 

I think it would not require a whole lot of work to make some very beneficial changes to the Stronghold system which - immersion-wise - looks like a blemish on the otherwise brilliantly immersive story.

[santanzchild]

Everyone keeps assuming the taxes are from locals. That isn't stated any where but it is said to be the only passable route from defiance bay. So I would assume the taxes are on the merchant trains that would be moving goods through your lands.

[Elfwyn]

Everyone keeps assuming the taxes are from locals. That isn't stated any where but it is said to be the only passable route from defiance bay. So I would assume the taxes are on the merchant trains that would be moving goods through your lands.

You are right. I just had to assume something for a first, and your explanation seems valid.

That would still open the question who collects the money in my place - a couple of sentences explainging how it works would have satisfied my curiousity.

And if it is just a box on the wayside where merchants put the money - who put the box there?

 

Maybe i missed something, but isn't there a northern bridge to defiance bay? - haven't taken that route yet ^_^!

[eekz]

My opinion:

I also think that Stronghold is immersion breaker.

Not only because it's hard to logicaly explain questions mentioned in the 1st post, but mainly because the whole adventure feels very strange when a group of adventures capture a whole stronghold with facebook-game mechanics. Setteled life of a lord of stronghold, and a adventure of a Watcher are too diffenet things to be in one story. This thing just does not fit the plot. Caed Nua should not be rebuilt in the game process. It feels as cool feature to reach a goal on kickstarter rather than a cool game design and scenario move. The game would be better without stronghold. I'm in worries about stronghold in Torment: Tides of Numenera...

[Heijoushin]

Thats what I said! (lol, apparently no one noticed when I made a topic about this)

 

I 100% agree with you. I was really looking forward to the stronghold but it's totally immersion breaking.

 

The psychic statue was no doubt made for the players convenience, but getting "updates" in the field makes it feel like a free-to-play iphone app. Does no one else see their character whipping out a cellphone when they get these updates?!

The stronghold needs more PEOPLE. Not statues. I want a butler type dude and maybe some of the people that you rescue at various points could also go live there.

 

Edited March 30, 2015 by Heijoushin

[mtroman85]

 

Maybe i missed something, but isn't there a northern bridge to defiance bay? - haven't taken that route yet ^_^!

That bridge is out.

[Elfwyn]

My opinion:

I also think that Stronghold is immersion breaker.

Not only because it's hard to logicaly explain questions mentioned in the 1st post, but mainly because the whole adventure feels very strange when a group of adventures capture a whole stronghold with facebook-game mechanics. Setteled life of a lord of stronghold, and a adventure of a Watcher are too diffenet things to be in one story. This thing just does not fit the plot. Caed Nua should not be rebuilt in the game process. It feels as cool feature to reach a goal on kickstarter rather than a cool game design and scenario move. The game would be better without stronghold. I'm in worries about stronghold in Torment: Tides of Numenera...

I agree that it doesn't feel quite right as a gameplay mechanic, but I wouldn't want to miss that type of epic roleplay in this game. It came as a surprise to me however that it was introduced this early in the game. I might have introduced it later when the character is more commonly known among people in the region, but I am still pleased with it but for the points I mentioned above.

[KingNee]

The stronghold definitely is an immersion breaker. They committed to putting it in and racked their brains how to integrate it in any meaningful way and came up short.(and I don't blame them) 

This game is a CONTENDER, it's playing with the big boys of RPG history. There's no place for facebook games.

 

We have children being drowned because they are born without souls while you're hanging out in your blinged out stronghold, texting your friends to upvote your new fountain. 

 

This and all the YOLO tombstones have no place in a contender, but they promised these features very early in development when they might have looked good on paper. They weren't good ideas, they know that now, I guarantee it. 

Edited March 30, 2015 by KingNee

[Elfwyn]

The stronghold definitely is an immersion breaker. They committed to putting it in and racked their brains how to integrate it in any meaningful way and came up short.(and I don't blame them) 

This game is a CONTENDER, it's playing with the big boys of RPG history. There's no place for facebook games.

 

We have children being drowned because they are born without souls while you're hanging out in your blinged out stronghold, texting your friends to upvote your new fountain. 

 

This and all the YOLO tombstones have no place in a contender, but they promised these features very early in development when they might have looked good on paper. They weren't good ideas, they know that now, I guarantee it. 

I found the Integration of the Stronghold in Neverwinter Nights 2 (also by Obsidian) to be superb, so I don't think that the mechanic as a whole was a bad thing to include in PoE. I'ts just lacking a bit of refinement in my opinion.

[Stratosj]

Those big boys of RPG you spoke of also had plenty of immersion breakers. Jokes referencing reality shows and whatnot. I don't see the tombs as a problem myself. I did feel the keep came a bit too early but then again I enjoy playing around with it. Some extra npc servants should def. be added. I can imagine them but I shouldn't need to.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

If something is being upgraded, I'd like to see workers upgrading it when I walk through the grounds. Not one day a building is in tatters and no one is in sight despite the stronghold menu saying it's being worked on. And then I go rest for the night and come back down in the morning and a new building pops up. And still no one around.

[KingNee]

 

The stronghold definitely is an immersion breaker. They committed to putting it in and racked their brains how to integrate it in any meaningful way and came up short.(and I don't blame them) 

This game is a CONTENDER, it's playing with the big boys of RPG history. There's no place for facebook games.

 

We have children being drowned because they are born without souls while you're hanging out in your blinged out stronghold, texting your friends to upvote your new fountain. 

 

This and all the YOLO tombstones have no place in a contender, but they promised these features very early in development when they might have looked good on paper. They weren't good ideas, they know that now, I guarantee it. 

I found the Integration of the Stronghold in Neverwinter Nights 2 (also by Obsidian) to be superb, so I don't think that the mechanic as a whole was a bad thing to include in PoE. I'ts just lacking a bit of refinement in my opinion.

 

 

While there are many things they could have done to make it better immersion-wise, I feel the game would have been much better without it. It's a tacked on thing right now, like a free to play mobile game with actions every x hours, none of them mattering. NWN (of which I remember only really enjoying MOTB) had a much stronger focus on building up that fortress and it worked much better there.

 

Still I prefer games where your environment fits your circumstances, where the urgency of your quest will leave no room for such tomfoolery. 

 

I know that some of the greats had tongue in cheek random encounters but they were not a big part of the game, you didn't see the knights who say "NI" on every street corner. 

[DrBrian]

Agree on that, so far the stronghold is one of the rare points I don't enjoy in the game. Feels forced and gimmicky. It doesn't fit well in RP, and the ressource management part is too superficial too matter. Build a defense building, wait 3 days, rinse and repeat until you move on to reputation buildings. No critical choices, no important decisions. And early on it showers you with annoyances.

Got a prisoner? He escapes.

Got a visitor? He gives you malus.

Get attacked? Don't expect to loot the corpses.

Taxes? Get robbed more than you collect.

Edited March 31, 2015 by DrBrian

[bonarbill]

NWN2 crossroad keep was a lot better.  I'll even say that BG2's de'Arnise Keep is better as well since it feels a bit more immersive.

 

I really hope they can improve the stronghold in later patches, because right now it isn't that interesting.

[Viperswhip]

Agree on that, so far the stronghold is one of the rare points I don't enjoy in the game. Feels forced and gimmicky. It doesn't fit well in RP, and the ressource management part is too superficial too matter. Build a defense building, wait 3 days, rinse and repeat until you move on to reputation buildings. No critical choices, no important decisions. And early on it showers you with annoyances.

Got a prisoner? He escapes.

Got a visitor? He gives you malus.

Get attacked? Don't expect to loot the corpses.

Taxes? Get robbed more than you collect.

I haven't taken any prisoners yet, you just use one of your companions to escort the guest, I get to loot the kills I make in the keep, and I've never lost more than 20ish percent of my taxes.

 

What I would like is to be able to actually hire competent defenders, maybe auto resolve would work out differently, but when I manual it with my group there, my hired fighters tend to fold unless Durance blows his entire stack of healing spells (the special hires last a bit longer, taxes will never pay for all of them though, especially as at present you don't appear to actually collect taxes, no matter what it says).

 

Still, I would like all of the OPs concerned addressed, the keep just feels incredibly empty.

 

Oh and after spending all that money, staying the night should provide all of the bonuses.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Viperswhip

[Reever]

First off, I love the Stronghold. It's a nice money sink. And I can't wait for it to be all shiny and give me all kinds of bonuses.

 

But yeah, I asked myself some of those questions too. Especially when I read that "my patrols" fended of some attackers. I was like "whut? Which patrols?!" :D

[Wulfburk]

All the stronghold needs are some more text and dialogue explaining these questions.

 

 

I for one have been loving the stronghold quite a lot.

[eastc]

I agree with the OP. Some attendants running around would help quite a bit in explaining away things.

 

Otherwise, I wish the chair had more lines. Her voice is awesome.

[Ekaros]

I personally feel like it's just there to hold the dungeon... It's not really bringing much to the table. And then people just come to hang in your keep, but there is no interaction there.

 

On other hand the whole static thing extends to whole game, I wish that in future games the world and places would feel more alive.

[hamskii]

The stronghold definitely is an immersion breaker. They committed to putting it in and racked their brains how to integrate it in any meaningful way and came up short.(and I don't blame them) 

This game is a CONTENDER, it's playing with the big boys of RPG history. There's no place for facebook games.

 

We have children being drowned because they are born without souls while you're hanging out in your blinged out stronghold, texting your friends to upvote your new fountain. 

 

This and all the YOLO tombstones have no place in a contender, but they promised these features very early in development when they might have looked good on paper. They weren't good ideas, they know that now, I guarantee it.

I don't agree with you, but your post seriously made me laugh!

[Sedrefilos]

I do believe it looks a bit empty and lifeless but I don't care that much. I just like I have a standard place to rest, resupply etc. In any case, just as the rest of the game, it is a good start to a more elaborate upgrade on a higher budget sequel.

[archangel979]

Stronghold in it current state is weakest part of the game. I was really hoping Obsidian would take their Stronghold concept from NWN2 and refine it for PoE but it seems they did it worse, not better which is a shame.

 

Hopefully the expansion adds more stuff and fixes all the immersion problems with the stronhold.

[gkathellar]

Immersion breaking or not, I think it's a great minigame, and I really like the idea of using quests to measure the progress of time. I'll gladly suspend my disbelief.

[Fen(rir)tastic]

Honestly the stronghold mechanics aren't bad but it needs more interactivity. Bounties are nice as are resting bonuses. There need to be servants, people around other than inactive guards and simplistic merchants. It would benefit from a sub plot of its own aka DeArnise had the whole noble trying to steal it thing. I really want a treasure room with more than one chest ,<.< I find the stash useless for organising my gear as it won't let me separate by specific categories (crush/slash/rings) So I have to use chests haha.

[matthewfarmery]

I also started to upgrade the stronghold, while I don't mind it, but I do feel that the amount of forced bad events is a bit too high, (even though I beefed up security a lot) getting told your stronghold is under attack every so often is pretty distracting, not had many good events, and when I did have an average length adventure, it takes 8 turns and I hardly got anything for it.

 

but yeah, the stronghold needs more people, then again, I could say that for the first city, looks good on paper, but pretty dull.

 

so yeah the stronghold is becoming a bit of an annoying mini game, (maybe there could be an option to disable the events system if you don't want them?)

 

but yeah the idea sounds cool, but needs a lot of work, and there is very little point storying anything at the stronghold when you got a infinite stash.

 

so I hope some more refinement is done, I like the idea, just not really keen on how its been done, needs a lot of work, and that really goes for the rest of the game too.

 

still, this is an awesome game, I'm having a blast playing it, but the bugs are annoying, I encountered a few of them, I hope the first patch is soon.

 

but keep up the goood work devs, this is a god game, just needs refinement and tweaking and bug fixing before it really shines.