Pause + Pause = Unpause? (Suggestion)

[WebShaman]

 

Really? Do we really need a fix for something that simply requires a second keystroke autopause/unpause oops pause????

We don't NEED it, but it'd sure be nice.

 

This has been an irritation for me since the IE days. Apparently other people sympathize. I can't see the harm in addressing that.

 

 

^This.  Very nice post.

 

And I see elements of the gang-bang "jump on him" crowd have reared their heads.  Easier to just fall into a feeding frenzy than to actually stop and consider what the OP is suggesting.

[Ichthyic]

every autopause game ever, the only ones I found generally useful:

-pause on sighting enemy; stop movement
-pause on sighting hidden; stop movement

and both of those are just to avoid blundering into dangerous things.

that's it.

to underestand how turns work in this game, I tried pause on finish ability.  annoying as hell, but it's instructive in figuring out the cadence of how your team operates with various spells and attacks, so you learn not to waste time with characters standing idle during combat.  once you get the rhythm though, I turn it off again.

the just spacebar for pause/unpause works great for me.

 

 

If the OPTION were available and you dont like it then simply dont use it.

fully agree with that though.  more flexibility is always a good thing.

 

Edited April 11, 2015 by Ichthyic

[Iankas]

 

The resistance is I don't see it as an issue and hence would just as soon devs spent time and resources on more relevant issues with a side order of I hate it when the goal seems to be making a game that plays itself while the player sits back and watches things unfold.

 

 

To me this is a very poor attitude.

I don't go around the forum, checking for suggestions for OPTIONS that I unlikely to use then proceed to elucidate why that is bad thing

(which would also imply that a person have too much free time on their hand).

 

If it were made to be optional and I dont think I need it, I will simply refrain from mouthing off. Especially in a single player game.

Every player has different needs, just because I dont need it does not mean everyone else dont.

I dont know how they play, maybe they are multitasking, maybe they have disabilities.

I do not know so I would shut up unless I have a constructive criticism.

 

But ... that's just me.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Iankas

[Alweth]

 

 

Really? Do we really need a fix for something that simply requires a second keystroke autopause/unpause oops pause????  

 

I've had situations where two auto-pauses follow right on each other, so my attempt to repause it actually re-unpauses it.

 

 

Oh no!!!!!! This would require another click (gasp) 

 

 

Which might mean another unpause...

 

You seem to be failing to grasp that the problem is not the clicks but the fact that the clicks do the opposite of what's wanted. They waste critical seconds of combat when you're trying to do something. Now, maybe the way you play those seconds don't matter, but I try to make every second count, so I would like it to pause the game when I press the pause button.

[Alweth]

 

Thing is, if you are on the harder difficulty level or have a bunch squishy characters then that 1 second of the game not being paused can really make a difference. Especially earlier in the game where you dont have a lot of tools as spellcasters to deal with enemies up on your face.

 

Not sure what's up with all the resistance.

If the OPTION were available and you dont like it then simply dont use it.

 

The resistance is I don't see it as an issue and hence would just as soon devs spent time and resources on more relevant issues with a side order of I hate it when the goal seems to be making a game that plays itself while the player sits back and watches things unfold.

 

 

You don't like a certain style of play therefore bad UI is acceptable? Got it.

[wanderon]

 

 

Thing is, if you are on the harder difficulty level or have a bunch squishy characters then that 1 second of the game not being paused can really make a difference. Especially earlier in the game where you dont have a lot of tools as spellcasters to deal with enemies up on your face.

 

Not sure what's up with all the resistance.

If the OPTION were available and you dont like it then simply dont use it.

 

The resistance is I don't see it as an issue and hence would just as soon devs spent time and resources on more relevant issues with a side order of I hate it when the goal seems to be making a game that plays itself while the player sits back and watches things unfold.

 

 

You don't like a certain style of play therefore bad UI is acceptable? Got it.

 

 

I don't consider the UI to be bad thus I would prefer if the devs didn't waste time fixing something I don't think is broken when they could spend that time doing things that I think are more important - that's my opinion and I choose to voice it because that's what discussion is about - people voicing their opinions about the subject presented.

[Alweth]

 

 

 

Thing is, if you are on the harder difficulty level or have a bunch squishy characters then that 1 second of the game not being paused can really make a difference. Especially earlier in the game where you dont have a lot of tools as spellcasters to deal with enemies up on your face.

 

Not sure what's up with all the resistance.

If the OPTION were available and you dont like it then simply dont use it.

 

The resistance is I don't see it as an issue and hence would just as soon devs spent time and resources on more relevant issues with a side order of I hate it when the goal seems to be making a game that plays itself while the player sits back and watches things unfold.

 

 

You don't like a certain style of play therefore bad UI is acceptable? Got it.

 

 

I don't consider the UI to be bad thus I would prefer if the devs didn't waste time fixing something I don't think is broken when they could spend that time doing things that I think are more important - that's my opinion and I choose to voice it because that's what discussion is about - people voicing their opinions about the subject presented.

 

 

That the current pause behavior is bad UI is not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of fact. The fact that you don't like playing a certain way has zero bearing on this issue. You're welcome to share your opinion, but if you justify it with obtuseness, sarcasm, and personal bias rather than reason, people can and will call you on it.

[wanderon]

 

 

 

 

Thing is, if you are on the harder difficulty level or have a bunch squishy characters then that 1 second of the game not being paused can really make a difference. Especially earlier in the game where you dont have a lot of tools as spellcasters to deal with enemies up on your face.

 

Not sure what's up with all the resistance.

If the OPTION were available and you dont like it then simply dont use it.

 

The resistance is I don't see it as an issue and hence would just as soon devs spent time and resources on more relevant issues with a side order of I hate it when the goal seems to be making a game that plays itself while the player sits back and watches things unfold.

 

 

You don't like a certain style of play therefore bad UI is acceptable? Got it.

 

 

I don't consider the UI to be bad thus I would prefer if the devs didn't waste time fixing something I don't think is broken when they could spend that time doing things that I think are more important - that's my opinion and I choose to voice it because that's what discussion is about - people voicing their opinions about the subject presented.

 

 

That the current pause behavior is bad UI is not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of fact. The fact that you don't like playing a certain way has zero bearing on this issue. You're welcome to share your opinion, but if you justify it with obtuseness, sarcasm, and personal bias rather than reason, people can and will call you on it.

 

 

Oh no called out??? Can I get a jacket first?

 

It is your OPINION that the UI is broken just like it's my opinion that it's not. It's your opinion that the pause behavior even has an issue never mind whether or not it is broken and it is my opinion that it works just fine as long as one is coordinated enough to press the pause key when needed after pressing it when it was not needed we are not talking rocket science here nor do I think the devs need to do anything about this trivial issue and that too is my opinion - you are certainly free to hold your own opinion and state it as you wish but you should understand that it is only an opinion - just like certain parts of the anatomy everyone has them. (End of lesson)

[Alweth]

It is your OPINION that the UI is broken just like it's my opinion that it's not. It's your opinion that the pause behavior even has an issue never mind whether or not it is broken and it is my opinion that it works just fine as long as one is coordinated enough to press the pause key when needed after pressing it when it was not needed we are not talking rocket science here nor do I think the devs need to do anything about this trivial issue and that too is my opinion - you are certainly free to hold your own opinion and state it as you wish but you should understand that it is only an opinion - just like certain parts of the anatomy everyone has them. (End of lesson)

 

 

Nope. Not true. The purpose of User Interface is to allow the user to communicate to the program what he or she wants to do. When the same button unpredictably does the opposite of what it did a fraction of a second before, that is bad UI because it undermines the purpose of UI. None of this is my opinion, it's just objective fact based on what a user interface is. You're trying to make it out to be a matter of opinion to save face or whatever, but it's not. Do you think the fact that ability buttons sometimes don't work shouldn't be fixed because it just takes another click?

 

Now, you're welcome to you opinion about whether they should do something about this UI issue, but "I don't see it as an issue... with a side order of I hate it when the goal seems to be making a game that plays itself while the player sits back and watches things unfold" is a horrible argument for leaving objectively poor UI in the game. Just pointing that out.

[cloudline]

+1

 

I definitely support this, here's why:

 

I set up my auto-pause settings for maximum (to my preference) granularity of game control. I pause on hidden item, enemy spotted, combat start, and ability finished. As a matter of fact, perhaps the primary reason for me pausing on an ability finishing is because I find it unacceptable that my characters just stand around looking at my party being attacked by 10 beasts, just because they finished casting a spell. "Oh gee, it's lovely I just cast slick and knocked those 6 ogre prone. I think I'll just stand around and support a full party wipe." Every character in my party falls prey to this so in essence I'm forced to use pause on ability finished.

 

What sucks is that my being forced to use pause on ability finished to circumvent this issue, causes the very problem which the OP describes. I manually press pause during combat to reconsider my tactics and change my decisions. When I intend to pause the game and press spacebar, I don't want, I absolutely don't want the game unpausing the game because it just auto-paused on a finished ability. I micro-manage my party with this style of gameplay, and this bug kicks my granularity where Eothas don't shine.

 

This actually isn't a micro-management problem for me. For me the problem is my characters not using their default attack after using an ability and just standing uselessly around. If Obsidian made it so, for example, after my wizard casts flying pony, they afterwards start using their wand, problem solved. Until then I'm forced to auto-pause on ability finished so I don't risk losing my only Trial of Iron save because my characters are picking each other's noses while 6 ogres beat me silly.

 

Please default to characters auto-attacking on ability finished and change the way auto-pause + manual-pause is implemented against intended player behavior.

 

Also, you're the best Obsidian!

Edited April 13, 2015 by cloudline

[wanderon]

 

It is your OPINION that the UI is broken just like it's my opinion that it's not. It's your opinion that the pause behavior even has an issue never mind whether or not it is broken and it is my opinion that it works just fine as long as one is coordinated enough to press the pause key when needed after pressing it when it was not needed we are not talking rocket science here nor do I think the devs need to do anything about this trivial issue and that too is my opinion - you are certainly free to hold your own opinion and state it as you wish but you should understand that it is only an opinion - just like certain parts of the anatomy everyone has them. (End of lesson)

 

 

Nope. Not true. The purpose of User Interface is to allow the user to communicate to the program what he or she wants to do. When the same button unpredictably does the opposite of what it did a fraction of a second before, that is bad UI because it undermines the purpose of UI. None of this is my opinion, it's just objective fact based on what a user interface is. You're trying to make it out to be a matter of opinion to save face or whatever, but it's not. Do you think the fact that ability buttons sometimes don't work shouldn't be fixed because it just takes another click?

 

Now, you're welcome to you opinion about whether they should do something about this UI issue, but "I don't see it as an issue... with a side order of I hate it when the goal seems to be making a game that plays itself while the player sits back and watches things unfold" is a horrible argument for leaving objectively poor UI in the game. Just pointing that out.

 

 

The purpose of the pause key is to pause and unpause the game - if the game is paused clicking it will unpause it if the game is not paused clicking it will pause the game - it is not broken - it works exactly as designed - the issue here is simply PLAYER ERROR not determining whether the game is paused or unpaused before applying the key.

 

It is the Players option to use the auto-pause features the game provides knowing that this will cause the game to pause on it's own in certain circumstances - this does in fact mean that the player should determine what stage the game is in before pressing the pause/unpause key indiscriminately. The good news is if they fail to do this and end up pausing or unpausing when what they wanted to do was the opposite of that - the solution is to simply click the pause/unpause button again and all will be right with the world. 

 

One assumes that if the player is unable to perform such actions in a timely manner due to lack of focus or dexterity that perhaps they should consider not having the game pause automatically and/or try playing in slow mode to allow themselves more time to make that key press.

 

What I do not see as necessary is taking steps to redesign a portion of the UI system that is currently working exactly as designed and as a side note works exactly as it did in every one of the IE games that this game is the spiritual successor to. 

 

One might also note that the fact that I personally do not like the concept of CRPG games that are designed to play themselves like an interactive movie has absolutely no bearing on the fact that the UI pause/unpause feature works exactly as designed which is why I offered it as a "side note" in the first place.

[Alweth]

 

 

 

It is your OPINION that the UI is broken just like it's my opinion that it's not. It's your opinion that the pause behavior even has an issue never mind whether or not it is broken and it is my opinion that it works just fine as long as one is coordinated enough to press the pause key when needed after pressing it when it was not needed we are not talking rocket science here nor do I think the devs need to do anything about this trivial issue and that too is my opinion - you are certainly free to hold your own opinion and state it as you wish but you should understand that it is only an opinion - just like certain parts of the anatomy everyone has them. (End of lesson)

 

 

Nope. Not true. The purpose of User Interface is to allow the user to communicate to the program what he or she wants to do. When the same button unpredictably does the opposite of what it did a fraction of a second before, that is bad UI because it undermines the purpose of UI. None of this is my opinion, it's just objective fact based on what a user interface is. You're trying to make it out to be a matter of opinion to save face or whatever, but it's not. Do you think the fact that ability buttons sometimes don't work shouldn't be fixed because it just takes another click?

Now, you're welcome to you opinion about whether they should do something about this UI issue, but "I don't see it as an issue... with a side order of I hate it when the goal seems to be making a game that plays itself while the player sits back and watches things unfold" is a horrible argument for leaving objectively poor UI in the game. Just pointing that out.

 

 

The purpose of the pause key is to pause and unpause the game - if the game is paused clicking it will unpause it if the game is not paused clicking it will pause the game - it is not broken - it works exactly as designed - the issue here is simply PLAYER ERROR not determining whether the game is paused or unpaused before applying the key.

 

It is the Players option to use the auto-pause features the game provides knowing that this will cause the game to pause on it's own in certain circumstances - this does in fact mean that the player should determine what stage the game is in before pressing the pause/unpause key indiscriminately. The good news is if they fail to do this and end up pausing or unpausing when what they wanted to do was the opposite of that - the solution is to simply click the pause/unpause button again and all will be right with the world. 

 

One assumes that if the player is unable to perform such actions in a timely manner due to lack of focus or dexterity that perhaps they should consider not having the game pause automatically and/or try playing in slow mode to allow themselves more time to make that key press.

 

What I do not see as necessary is taking steps to redesign a portion of the UI system that is currently working exactly as designed and as a side note works exactly as it did in every one of the IE games that this game is the spiritual successor to. 

 

 

You're clearly either not listening or simply refusing to acknowledge the facts. As I already mentioned, the time between a humans decision to press the pause button and the actual pressing of the pause button takes many iterations of game-time--plenty of time for an auto-pause to occur. An average human reaction time is about a quarter of a second, that's 15 frames of a typical game. To call something like that user error is like calling a human's inability to see infrared user error--ridiculous--both are simply prevented by human biology.

 

Your "click-again" argument has already been refuted in multiple ways. There's no point for you to keep mentioning it.

And what we're asking for here is a tweak, not a "redesign."

[wanderon]

Yeah? Hard to see how those 100,000s of people that played those IE games with the exact same pause system ever finished them huh? Oh wait let me guess - you weren't one of them...

 

You are clearly making mountains out of molehills and I stand by the concept that this system is not broken at all but is functioning exactly as designed and there is nothing wrong with that design in spite of the fact that you might lose 15 frames by not paying enough attention to whether the game is paused or not when you press the spacebar just look at it as part of the challenge and move on!

[Emptiness]

Yeah? Hard to see how those 100,000s of people that played those IE games with the exact same pause system ever finished them huh? Oh wait let me guess - you weren't one of them...

 

You are clearly making mountains out of molehills and I stand by the concept that this system is not broken at all but is functioning exactly as designed and there is nothing wrong with that design in spite of the fact that you might lose 15 frames by not paying enough attention to whether the game is paused or not when you press the spacebar just look at it as part of the challenge and move on!

 

That may all be true (although in my case I did play most of the IE games), but none of it is a reason not to add the ability to bind Pause and Unpause to different keys.  It's okay for newer games to innovate and provide features that were not present in older games.

[flamewavelight]

+1 

 

I would like to have the option to have a separate pause and unpause keybind.

 

I dont think it is too much development effort either (to separate two keybinds)..

[Alweth]

 

Yeah? Hard to see how those 100,000s of people that played those IE games with the exact same pause system ever finished them huh? Oh wait let me guess - you weren't one of them... 

 

Oh please. You have no argument so now you're trying this... Your insinuation is both false and irrelevant. I've beaten BG1, TotSC, and BG2 multiple times each, and played Throne of Bhaal, Planescape: Torment and Icewind Dale 1 & 2. Autopausing when I pressed the pause button was just as annoying then as it is now. But as Emptiness has pointed out, it doesn't matter. The criticism is valid regardless of what I've played.

 

You are clearly making mountains out of molehills

 

I'm asking for an easy and reasonable fix for the UI. You're the one who keeps making it out to be a big deal, something unreasonable to ask. I myself have coded the same feature a number of times for various UIs, where appropriate, so I know what I'm talking about. You seem to imagine it's a mountain.

 

there is nothing wrong with that design in spite of the fact that you might lose 15 frames by not paying enough attention to whether the game is paused or not when you press the spacebar just look at it as part of the challenge and move on!

 

This has nothing to do with paying attention, and that means it is a bad design. Instead of explaining this to you a third time, I ask you to go to this site, test your reaction time and post it back here:

https://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/java/redgreen.html

 

Thanks.

[wanderon]

 

Really? Do we really need a fix for something that simply requires a second keystroke autopause/unpause oops pause????  

 

I've had situations where two auto-pauses follow right on each other, so my attempt to repause it actually re-unpauses it.

 

 

Really? Lets see how that works....

 

So the game pauses for the auto pause - now the game is paused (and it says so in large block print just above the UI center screen) and nothing can happen without unpausing.

 

so then you hit pause because you didn't realize the game was paused thus unpausing it which then fires another auto pause? 

 

OK now the game is paused again (and again there are those large block letters above the UI center saying GAME PAUSED) but you still don't realize the game is paused so you hit the pause key yet again which unpauses the game again (those large block letters go away now) - and you are upset becuase now the game is unpaused again and you don't know how to pause it?? (hint - click the pause key)

 

My suggestion would be to either stop using auto-pause - or alternately use it for only one instance (thus you would not get two in a row to confuse you) or pay a little more attention to those big block letters that appear when the game is paused as it certainly seems to me that this situation of yours appears to be operator error rather than a problem with the mechanics of pause and auto-pause.

[masters66]

 

 

Really? Do we really need a fix for something that simply requires a second keystroke autopause/unpause oops pause????  

 

I've had situations where two auto-pauses follow right on each other, so my attempt to repause it actually re-unpauses it.

 

 

Really? Lets see how that works....

 

So the game pauses for the auto pause - now the game is paused (and it says so in large block print just above the UI center screen) and nothing can happen without unpausing.

 

so then you hit pause because you didn't realize the game was paused thus unpausing it which then fires another auto pause? 

 

OK now the game is paused again (and again there are those large block letters above the UI center saying GAME PAUSED) but you still don't realize the game is paused so you hit the pause key yet again which unpauses the game again (those large block letters go away now) - and you are upset becuase now the game is unpaused again and you don't know how to pause it?? (hint - click the pause key)

 

My suggestion would be to either stop using auto-pause - or alternately use it for only one instance (thus you would not get two in a row to confuse you) or pay a little more attention to those big block letters that appear when the game is paused as it certainly seems to me that this situation of yours appears to be operator error rather than a problem with the mechanics of pause and auto-pause.

 

Why are you being so obtuse about something that is such a minor change?

 

You apparently have superhuman reaction times, good for you. Most of us are sadly just human though, and the in the time between our brain going "I want to pause" and our hand pressing the space-bar the game itself auto-pauses. It doesn't happen often for me anything, but since it is such a minor fix (either the ability to have separate keys or a 'buffer' zone where you can't unpause after the auto-pause) I can't see why it would be such a bad thing to do.

 

Your brain cannot process the 'big block letters' that say the game is paused fast enough to stop yourself hitting it. If you think it can, please do the reaction test Alweth linked so you can be corrected.

 

Out of interest, how many settings do you have for 'auto-pause' situations? And how often has the situation we're describing happened to you (if at all)?

Edited April 16, 2015 by masters66

[archangel979]

 

Really? Do we really need a fix for something that simply requires a second keystroke autopause/unpause oops pause????  

 

I've had situations where two auto-pauses follow right on each other, so my attempt to repause it actually re-unpauses it.

 

Haha, I had that happen as well lol. I now don't pause anymore manually but wait until game autopauses on ability finished. Not the most optimal way to play but at least I don't accidentally unpause the game anymore.

[wanderon]

@masters66

 

I don't think I am being obtuse I think the pause / unpause UI is fine just as it has been through the entire sequence of the IE games - I have never had an issue with it at all - if I mistakenly unpause I simply click again to pause and vice versa - this is not a twitch game where a missed second or two spells disaster with the possible exception of trial of iron play and as far as I'm concerned even that is doubtful as long as you give the game (and its paused state) sufficient focus. ( Once I played the IE games for a while I almost always played some sort of No Reload campaign and it was still not a problem for me)

 

This game is not perfect but this particular area works just fine as long as the gamer is focused on the game and I think the concept of losing 15 frames being some sort of calamity is ludicrous. There are at the very least many many other places the devs could put time and resources into fixing so if it's not broke then don't fix it is where my vote falls. If this is such an easy fix and so many people are bothered by it why isn't their a mod to fix it already? Why wasn't such a mod standard fare for the laundry list of "must have" mods fror the IE games? Why wasn't it incorporated in the EE games? I'm not seeing the love for this that some folks seem to be inferring.

 

I use one auto pause and in the event I am too quick on the trigger and unpause when I want pause I simply click again and I have never considered it an issue - then again my definition of issue may be different than yours I am generally entirely OK with playing the game I have been given rather than ask to have it changed to suit my whims.

Edited April 16, 2015 by wanderon

[masters66]

I use one auto pause

Well there we go then! No wonder the auto-pause doesn't regularly impact you. In theory there will probably be people running with 10 or maybe even all of the options in that menu ticked. Do you acknowledge how it might be a bigger issue for them?

 

@masters66

 

then again my definition of issue may be different than yours I am generally entirely OK with playing the game I have been given rather than ask to have it changed to suit my whims.

Haha so should I ignore the bit a few lines up where you talk about "There are at the very least many many other places the devs could put time and resources into fixing"? Why even bring those up if you don't them to cater the game to your whims?

 

No one's made it out as a 'calamity' in its current state, so enough with the hyperbole. It's a minor annoyance for (based on this thread) a reasonable number of the players. It also seems like it would be simple to add in an option to improve the situation.

 

I have no idea why it hasn't been modded in, I haven't looked into it. As for why it wasn't in other IE games, I don't remember there being anywhere near as many auto-pause options as with PoE. My memory is rusty though, and I only ever really played BG 1 and 2. If the only pause was 'at start of combat' or something then this would be a miniscule issue, so the change wouldn't be needed.

[archangel979]

IE games were slower games and pausing often was less needed.

[wanderon]

What difference should having more auto-pause options mean - when it goes off the game STOPS and there is a big sign at the bottom saying GAME PAUSED - if you have all these auto pauses set why would you be constantly pausing manually at the same time? Maybe the issue is using too many auto-pauses??? Just because they are all there doesn't mean you need to use every one - especially if it makes the game so convoluted you can't even tell when the game stops???

 

I'm not asking the devs to meet any of MY whims but that doesn't mean I'm not going to weigh in when I think a fix is not needed and that their time might be better spent elsewhere. There are things that can be fixed or improved I just don't believe this is one of them that needs to be on that list nor am I going to change that position just because others may disagree.

[masters66]

What difference should having more auto-pause options mean - when it goes off the game STOPS and there is a big sign at the bottom saying GAME PAUSED - if you have all these auto pauses set why would you be constantly pausing manually at the same time? Maybe the issue is using too many auto-pauses??? Just because they are all there doesn't mean you need to use every one - especially if it makes the game so convoluted you can't even tell when the game stops???

More auto-pauses means it stops more often. Were you being rhetorical or was that a genuine question? More auto-pauses occurring means it's more likely that this arises...

 

Using all the auto-pause options (that are there to be used) wouldn't make the game convoluted if one of the incredibly minor solutions that has been suggested was in place.

 

And I take it asking them to not do this isn't one of your whims? And the ways you would prefer they spend their time are not one of your whims? Just accept we all want different things, don't claim you wouldn't ever dream of making a suggestion to the devs.

[Emptiness]

I don't understand how someone can fail to understand that your brain can initiate an attempt to pause the game when the game is not paused, but then have the game auto-pause an instant before your hand actually pauses the game, resulting in a pause-unpause sequence that is faster than any human reaction time.  I don't understand how someone can fail to understand that if you are trying to pause the game and the result is that the game is not paused then something may happen before you can repause the game that you were trying to pause the game to prevent.  I don't understand how anyone can have extensive experience with real-time-with-pause games and not have encountered both of these scenarios many times.