Memorials problem.

[DrTuring]

I can't believe this has been going on for 24 pages... 

 

Honestly, can't see how this is an issue. Its a dirty limerick - they're actually pretty common in literature, music, history, etc. I might be wrong, but I think there were similar tombstones in other games, including BG1/2. Also fairly common in classic literature (Canterbury Tales anyone?). Although I could be recalling wrong on both accounts, but either way, I'd say its not the first or last dirty limerick I will read/hear about.

 

Also, its pretty vague. As others have mentioned, it doesn't offer nearly enough evidence to support that anyone involved was transgendered. Being a man? Yes. But not necessarily transgendered. Here it is again, just cuz I find it funny and relevant to the current conversation. Also, I think it fits in with the setting PERFECTLY, and do not mind its existence in the slightest.

 

"Firedorn Lightbringer

Here lies Firedorn, a hero in bed

He once was alive and now he's dead

The last woman be bedded, turned out a man

and crying in shame, of a cliff he ran."

 

Plus - its a dirty limerick and a joke - is it REALLY that big a deal? Are we going to cancel the game, demand refunds, and bash a game company over THIS? of all things? REALLY? I just don't get it. And the argument about the person who started all this - maybe she should reconsider posting #KillAllMen or whatever if she wants to be taken seriously. Otherwise, I will view her opinion as a joke and dismiss it as such - similar to this limerick, actually.

 

That said, if the LGBT community does find this to be offensive, I don't think offering a patch to make the backer content optional is a bad thing. In fact, from what I heard, many people would like this anyway, as they find many of the backer-supplied content to be out of place, so I think that would be a pretty reasonable solution, personally. Asking for more or less is just pushing the agenda, and I can't really support that, as it would really screw over Obsidian one way or the other. (Don't support LGBT community vs Don't support Kickstarter backers == Lose/Lose)

I would be fine with just a toggle option. I'm pretty sure everyone would be fine with a toggle option, except for the hardcore agenda pushers on each side.

[exodiark]

Please don't negotiate with terrorists Obsidian, once you cave in, they will ask you to remove *more* offensive (to them) stuffs.

 

And there are lots of offensive stuffs in darker parts of PE.

[AnsFenrisulfr]

 

I can't believe this has been going on for 24 pages... 

 

Honestly, can't see how this is an issue. Its a dirty limerick - they're actually pretty common in literature, music, history, etc. I might be wrong, but I think there were similar tombstones in other games, including BG1/2. Also fairly common in classic literature (Canterbury Tales anyone?). Although I could be recalling wrong on both accounts, but either way, I'd say its not the first or last dirty limerick I will read/hear about.

 

Also, its pretty vague. As others have mentioned, it doesn't offer nearly enough evidence to support that anyone involved was transgendered. Being a man? Yes. But not necessarily transgendered. Here it is again, just cuz I find it funny and relevant to the current conversation. Also, I think it fits in with the setting PERFECTLY, and do not mind its existence in the slightest.

 

"Firedorn Lightbringer

Here lies Firedorn, a hero in bed

He once was alive and now he's dead

The last woman be bedded, turned out a man

and crying in shame, of a cliff he ran."

 

Plus - its a dirty limerick and a joke - is it REALLY that big a deal? Are we going to cancel the game, demand refunds, and bash a game company over THIS? of all things? REALLY? I just don't get it. And the argument about the person who started all this - maybe she should reconsider posting #KillAllMen or whatever if she wants to be taken seriously. Otherwise, I will view her opinion as a joke and dismiss it as such - similar to this limerick, actually.

 

That said, if the LGBT community does find this to be offensive, I don't think offering a patch to make the backer content optional is a bad thing. In fact, from what I heard, many people would like this anyway, as they find many of the backer-supplied content to be out of place, so I think that would be a pretty reasonable solution, personally. Asking for more or less is just pushing the agenda, and I can't really support that, as it would really screw over Obsidian one way or the other. (Don't support LGBT community vs Don't support Kickstarter backers == Lose/Lose)

I would be fine with just a toggle option. I'm pretty sure everyone would be fine with a toggle option, except for the hardcore agenda pushers on each side.

 

HOnestly, only on one side... for once. I have yet to see anyone, even the most rapidly anti-removal on here, have issue with the toggle. So this is a rare case of actually one sided extremism.

[Syraxis]

Please don't negotiate with terrorists Obsidian, once you cave in, they will ask you to remove *more* offensive (to them) stuffs.

 

And there are lots of offensive stuffs in darker parts of PE.

I understand your view but calling people who want the poem removed "terrorists" just seems like that's stretching it a bit.

[cirdanx]

Not a troll, just a backer expressing her opinion.

 

I respect your opinion, but let me get some things right.

 

"The trope of straight dudes crying because they had sex with a woman who "is really a man" (which is itself a transphobic thing) is related to the concept of trans panic."

 

There is no such thing as trans panic, where is there panic? If you are trans fine. I don´t care, its none of my business. If you i would get romantic with one and maybe in a relationship and then get this told, then, naturaly i would feel betrayed, because you are not a woman, biological speaking. And upfront honesty should be given in ANY relationship.

 

"Many trans women face violence at the hands of straight men who feel that they were "deceived" and thus "panicked"."

 

While this is true, many also don´t. You can´t shove everyone under one "trope". Violence is never acceptable between partners, but lets not pretend woman are different.

 

"Many men have even gotten away with murdering trans women using this trans panic defense."

 

No they haven´t, this is a myth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_panic_defense

 

"So that little "limerick" is in very bad taste."

 

In your opinion, in reality the limerick is open to interpretation.

 

""Transmisandry" isn't a thing because misandry isn't a real thing"

 

You are wrong: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misandry

[Lephys]

*sigh* Any further argument in here is pointless. People who've made up their minds in pursuit of a cause are not going to change them. And other people are just going to keep responding with weird, "We have the right to hate people just because of who they are!" stuff.

 

On either side, the idea that you're winning some battle for whatever group you're fighting for overrides whatever the hell it is you're actually arguing about.

 

You can't campaign an idea out of existence. Even if the person who wrote that limerick for that memorial stone was the leader of the Worldwide Transgender Hate Foundation (I just made that up, FYI) -- which we have no way of ever knowing, because the limerick doesn't specify at all -- what would that mean? Are people's children being exposed to this game, and taught that limerick in their upbringing? Is that limerick infecting the minds of people who already had enough brainpower not to arbitrarily hate other humans purely because of their differences?

 

And Obsidian's removed it now, so YAY! No one can think that anymore! No worries! Right? Woohoo! Mission Accomplished!

 

Jeez... it's like the military's knee-jerk reaction in every alien movie, ever.

 

"Sir! There's an alien craft! What should we do?!"

 

"Better nuke it! We can't risk it being hostile!" *pushes big red button* "Yeah! We totally just defended the CRAP out of the Earth just then!"

[YourFaceIsTriggeringMe]

And Obsidian's removed it now, so YAY! No one can think that anymore! No worries! Right? Woohoo! Mission Accomplished!

They have?

[AnsFenrisulfr]

*sigh* Any further argument in here is pointless. People who've made up their minds in pursuit of a cause are not going to change them. And other people are just going to keep responding with weird, "We have the right to hate people just because of who they are!" stuff.

 

On either side, the idea that you're winning some battle for whatever group you're fighting for overrides whatever the hell it is you're actually arguing about.

 

You can't campaign an idea out of existence. Even if the person who wrote that limerick for that memorial stone was the leader of the Worldwide Transgender Hate Foundation (I just made that up, FYI) -- which we have no way of ever knowing, because the limerick doesn't specify at all -- what would that mean? Are people's children being exposed to this game, and taught that limerick in their upbringing? Is that limerick infecting the minds of people who already had enough brainpower not to arbitrarily hate other humans purely because of their differences?

 

And Obsidian's removed it now, so YAY! No one can think that anymore! No worries! Right? Woohoo! Mission Accomplished!

 

Jeez... it's like the military's knee-jerk reaction in every alien movie, ever.

 

"Sir! There's an alien craft! What should we do?!"

 

"Better nuke it! We can't risk it being hostile!" *pushes big red button* "Yeah! We totally just defended the CRAP out of the Earth just then!"

Source on them removing it? I don't see anything on the forums.

[Svirfneblin]

This situation is kinda odd, because it's not Obsidian who invented the content in the first place. Sawyer's reaction indicates to me that maybe they didn't look through the backer writing very carefully before inputting it, which means removing it might be what they wanted anyway. If this were actual Obsidian writing content I could see defending it as artistic vision or whatnot, but I don't think a limerick by a backer really qualifies.

[Einherjer]

It made you angry, and that's fine but now move on. I'm tired of everyone being so ****ing offended these days.

[DrTuring]

 

*sigh* Any further argument in here is pointless. People who've made up their minds in pursuit of a cause are not going to change them. And other people are just going to keep responding with weird, "We have the right to hate people just because of who they are!" stuff.

 

On either side, the idea that you're winning some battle for whatever group you're fighting for overrides whatever the hell it is you're actually arguing about.

 

You can't campaign an idea out of existence. Even if the person who wrote that limerick for that memorial stone was the leader of the Worldwide Transgender Hate Foundation (I just made that up, FYI) -- which we have no way of ever knowing, because the limerick doesn't specify at all -- what would that mean? Are people's children being exposed to this game, and taught that limerick in their upbringing? Is that limerick infecting the minds of people who already had enough brainpower not to arbitrarily hate other humans purely because of their differences?

 

And Obsidian's removed it now, so YAY! No one can think that anymore! No worries! Right? Woohoo! Mission Accomplished!

 

Jeez... it's like the military's knee-jerk reaction in every alien movie, ever.

 

"Sir! There's an alien craft! What should we do?!"

 

"Better nuke it! We can't risk it being hostile!" *pushes big red button* "Yeah! We totally just defended the CRAP out of the Earth just then!"

Source on them removing it? I don't see anything on the forums.

 

They didn't, he's using an example.

[Scars Unseen]

And Obsidian's removed it now, so YAY! No one can think that anymore! No worries! Right? Woohoo! Mission Accomplished!

 

 

That would be truly disappointing if true.  Not because I'm dead set against it being removed.  No, I don't care about that.  But there's the small matter of a character breaking bug that's preventing me from playing the game right now, and I would be down right pissed if Obsidian put this as the higher priority.

[Volourn]

"This defense often fails"

 

L0L

[mindswayer]

This situation is kinda odd, because it's not Obsidian who invented the content in the first place. Sawyer's reaction indicates to me that maybe they didn't look through the backer writing very carefully before inputting it, which means removing it might be what they wanted anyway. If this were actual Obsidian writing content I could see defending it as artistic vision or whatnot, but I don't think a limerick by a backer really qualifies.

This makes me wonder if Sawyer has seen the tombstone that mocks him with the whole breastplate deal. It's also a poem, and it's like "Breastplate..." and ends with "...which would make Josh quite irate".

[R.Alexander]

 

And Obsidian's removed it now, so YAY! No one can think that anymore! No worries! Right? Woohoo! Mission Accomplished!

 

 

That would be truly disappointing if true.  Not because I'm dead set against it being removed.  No, I don't care about that.  But there's the small matter of a character breaking bug that's preventing me from playing the game right now, and I would be down right pissed if Obsidian put this as the higher priority.

 

I don't think this is as much of a PR problem as it seems to us who closely follow the game. Also, I don't think removing this takes any technical effort on Obsidian's part. So I wouldn't be concerned it is affecting bug fixing at all.

[Lephys]

Yeah, sorry. I wasn't very clear on that. I was just presenting a hypothetical, sarcastic response to the event of Obsidian actually removing it, to emphasize the absolute nothing that would be accomplished by that, especially in light of the poem/limerick not even expressly specifying any kind of anti-trans agenda.

[Longknife]

How is this anti-trans?

 

Seriously:

 

How is it so hard to understand that a person who's completely straight might feel very conflicted and confused if they somehow wound up sleeping with a trans person? It's not insinuating that trans people are disgusting human beings that need to die or something outrageous like that, it's insinuating that waking up having realized you slept with the wrong gender is a pretty shocking experience for some people.

 

  As for the degree of the guy killing himself upon learning this fact? It's ****ing comedy - the twin brother of Tragedy in the family of Drama. It exaggerates. Either it's funny to you or it's not. Either is fine, but to take it serious as if the author of that poem is legitimately implying anyone would kill themselves over such a thing would be a grave mistake on your part.

 

 

It's not saying trans people are disgusting.

It's not saying the act itself is shameful.

It's saying that if you're straight and accidently find yourself involved with someone your gender (and whether you like it or not, some people will consider you their gender; it's THEIR standards they're free to make for themselves), that's a pretty awkward and embarassing situation that calls a lot of things into question. (sexuality, intelligence....eyesight)

 

  If your response is that this is anti-trans because it offends you to know that not all straight men would be interested in sleeping with a trans person, welcome to reality.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Longknife

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

And Obsidian's removed it now, so YAY! No one can think that anymore! No worries! Right? Woohoo! Mission Accomplished!

 

That would be truly disappointing if true.  Not because I'm dead set against it being removed.  No, I don't care about that.  But there's the small matter of a character breaking bug that's preventing me from playing the game right now, and I would be down right pissed if Obsidian put this as the higher priority.

 

Seeing as I currently shelved the game after my Cipher got screwed up with the double-click equip bug, I'm inclined to agree.

[Creslin321]

 

 

And Obsidian's removed it now, so YAY! No one can think that anymore! No worries! Right? Woohoo! Mission Accomplished!

 

 

That would be truly disappointing if true.  Not because I'm dead set against it being removed.  No, I don't care about that.  But there's the small matter of a character breaking bug that's preventing me from playing the game right now, and I would be down right pissed if Obsidian put this as the higher priority.

 

I don't think this is as much of a PR problem as it seems to us who closely follow the game. Also, I don't think removing this takes any technical effort on Obsidian's part. So I wouldn't be concerned it is affecting bug fixing at all.

 

 

Removing it would still be a patch, which would still require testing and going through whatever Obsidian's and the vendors' process is for releasing a new build.  So if they pushed out an emergency patch to fix this, it would indeed delay crucial bug fixes.

[FelixG]

God I hope they don't remove this.

 

Caving to a tiny minority of professional victims and whiners who will take offence at anything they can would be a disappointment.

 

Chances are I would only start to pick up Obsidian games in the steam dollar bin if they show such a lack of backbone when dealing with idiots.

[R.Alexander]

 

 

 

And Obsidian's removed it now, so YAY! No one can think that anymore! No worries! Right? Woohoo! Mission Accomplished!

 

 

That would be truly disappointing if true.  Not because I'm dead set against it being removed.  No, I don't care about that.  But there's the small matter of a character breaking bug that's preventing me from playing the game right now, and I would be down right pissed if Obsidian put this as the higher priority.

 

I don't think this is as much of a PR problem as it seems to us who closely follow the game. Also, I don't think removing this takes any technical effort on Obsidian's part. So I wouldn't be concerned it is affecting bug fixing at all.

 

 

Removing it would still be a patch, which would still require testing and going through whatever Obsidian's and the vendors' process is for releasing a new build.  So if they pushed out an emergency patch to fix this, it would indeed delay crucial bug fixes.

 

My first sentence was to imply that it wasn't something that needed to go out immediately as it wasn't a big PR problem and could probably easily be released with the next patch without delaying it.

[Emptiness]

I understand this was created by a backer. But why was something so horrible included in the final game? Could you have not said no and asked for something less transphobic? I know, it's just a joke. As someone who is trans, who backed this game and who was really looking forward to playing it soon, this really has made me angry.

 

I wasn't sure how to bring this up in a different way. I don't know how people will react to this. But I'm really saddened to see that this game I've been waiting over two years for is being ruined for me by one backer making a stupid "Joke" about trans women being men.

 

Saying that someone killed themselves due to a transphobic reaction is not the same thing as being transphobic, or encouraging it.

 

If someone in your neighborhood killed themselves after having such an experience, and then the local news reported on the incident, would you be calling for them to stop reporting on the story?  Not talking about it won't unmake it happen.

 

Someone may read that memorial and be offended, but the same could be said for any of the other memorials.  People can take offense at whatever they like.

 

Being offended by something does not imply that it should be censored.  If it did, there would be only nothing because everything offends someone.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Firedorn Lightbringer will go down in the annals of history and Chanters brave enough will sing of his demise. The chant of Firedorn Lightbringer. When a chanter sings this chant, it causes players to run to their deaths.

[exodiark]

 

Please don't negotiate with terrorists Obsidian, once you cave in, they will ask you to remove *more* offensive (to them) stuffs.

 

And there are lots of offensive stuffs in darker parts of PE.

I understand your view but calling people who want the poem removed "terrorists" just seems like that's stretching it a bit.

 

Ooops hahaha, I thought it was a figure of speech .

[Chaz]

 

 

Please don't negotiate with terrorists Obsidian, once you cave in, they will ask you to remove *more* offensive (to them) stuffs.

 

And there are lots of offensive stuffs in darker parts of PE.

I understand your view but calling people who want the poem removed "terrorists" just seems like that's stretching it a bit.

 

Ooops hahaha, I thought it was a figure of speech .

 

 

Yeah it's a bit over the top, but I do think they are bullies, and people like Katherine Cross, Jim Sterling and others thinking this joke leads to the deaths of trans or makes fun of the death of tans, you need to get back to reaily, folks.