Does race and gender matter?

[Jakotsu]

@Fredward: Female and male aren't opposites? Even if your able to catch a fly with your butt checks, the fact that female and male are opposite genders won't chance. Maybe you mean "Females and males aren't as different as people think they are".

And people are different. If we stick to females and males, they do have indeed a different set of genitals and there are other biological differences between females and males which have psychological differences as a consequence.

That doesn't mean females and males should be treated differently. But it does mean that, even when females and males are treated completely equal, statistics will still show a difference in female and male behaviour.

This is even more complicated if you think about the fact that quantity and chemical composition of "the stuff" that influences human development into a female or a male can vary from person to person. So there are females and males, which won't behave like statistics tell us they shoud.

Long story short:

Humans are individuals not a collective. Everbody is different, for this reason it should be possible for everyone to fulfill his needs if this doesn't conflict with the needs of others.

 

PS: This doesn't have to do alot with PoE. Sorry for that.

[Zwiebelchen]

Please let's not move this discussion towards gender equality. This was absolutely not the point of this thread. This thread was about roleplaying options.

 

 

I've personally found it interesting that the female text is basicly "extra" in the code. Again, not from the gender equality side of things, but from a pragmatical point of view:

This means, if you play a female character, you basicly have special flavour text that deviates from the default. I find that extremely interesting, as it means that basicly, female characters get more tailored RP content, whereas male characters only get the generic default lines.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[Luckmann]

Please let's not move this discussion towards gender equality. This was absolutely not the point of this thread. This thread was about roleplaying options.

 

I've personally found it interesting that the female text is basicly "extra" in the code. Again, not from the gender equality side of things, but from a pragmatical point of view:

This means, if you play a female character, you basicly have special flavour text that deviates from the default. I find that extremely interesting, as it means that basicly, female characters get more tailored RP content, whereas male characters only get the generic default lines.

Unlikely. The gender tags or similar are essentially used to differentiate between gender in an effective manner; it doesn't mean that the womyns get more tailored RP content (although it's possible, I'm just saying that it's not necessarily so), it just means that when gender is called on, it pulls on that asset for females instead.

[PrimeJunta]

Oh not this again. The Social Injustice Warriors out in full force.

 

:headdesk:

[Messier-31]

Dawg, ya' gonna die a gruesome death if ya'll pick da wrong race n' genda'

[Zwiebelchen]

 

Unlikely. The gender tags or similar are essentially used to differentiate between gender in an effective manner; it doesn't mean that the womyns get more tailored RP content (although it's possible, I'm just saying that it's not necessarily so), it just means that when gender is called on, it pulls on that asset for females instead.

 

 

Think about this from a game-design and writer's point of view:

 

When you write a dialogue and write the default content, you will encounter certain lines or situations that make only sense for a male lead. In that case, you take up the tag and write special lines for the female alternative. So whenever you do that, you are basicly "reminded" of that possibility to add more RP-specific lines.

So in a way, the need to rewrite certain dialogues for the female point of view keeps the writer constantly aware of the possibility to add gender-specific choices. Which leads to two possible outcomes:

1) the writer gets annoyed by it and leaves it at the absolute minimum, keeping everything unisex

2) the writer gets inspired by it and adds new options

 

No matter what; if the female dialogue is the extra and the male is the default, then chances are you will get more options playing female. Simply because the male choice is mostly the unisex choice.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[Luckmann]

 

 

Unlikely. The gender tags or similar are essentially used to differentiate between gender in an effective manner; it doesn't mean that the womyns get more tailored RP content (although it's possible, I'm just saying that it's not necessarily so), it just means that when gender is called on, it pulls on that asset for females instead.

 

 

Think about this from a game-design and writer's point of view:

 

When you write a dialogue and write the default content, you will encounter certain lines or situations that make only sense for a male lead. In that case, you take up the tag and write special lines for the female alternative. So whenever you do that, you are basicly "reminded" of that possibility to add more RP-specific lines.

So in a way, the need to rewrite certain dialogues for the female point of view keeps the writer constantly aware of the possibility to add gender-specific choices. Which leads to two possible outcomes:

1) the writer gets annoyed by it and leaves it at the absolute minimum

2) the writer gets inspired by it and adds new options

 

No matter what; if the female dialogue is the extra and the male is the default, then chances are you will get more options playing female. Simply because the male choice includes the unisex choices.

 

 

Yes, but gender is binary, so I don't think that's an issue, simply because when things are changed for the female, she does not get what would otherwise be the unisex or "male" option. It's just a matter of how you structure the code. While it's true that there's a human element to it, which might make the developer more or less inclined to embellish and expand upon it, there's not any substantial reason to think that it would be a major factor, and certainly nothing to suggest that it would matter.

 

It is very unlikely to be any "extra", just "different". The two options are mutually exclusive.

[Diogenes]

Gender is not binary fyi

[Luckmann]

Gender is not binary fyi

See:

 

Please let's not move this discussion towards gender equality. This was absolutely not the point of this thread. This thread was about roleplaying options.

 

No, I do not recognize the right to identify as heli-kin or mayonnaise, except as in jest. Lets stick to the topic and not have this degenerate into some anti-scientific SJW crusade or post-realism PC slugfest. There's the off-topic forum for those inclined.

 

Edited March 25, 2015 by Luckmann

[sparklecat]

How about this: gender, which in the broader sense is arguably more properly expressed as a continuum or a construct, is treated as binary for the purposes of the game's code, which is what is relevant to the discussion.

Edited March 25, 2015 by sparklecat

[Diogenes]

That's reasonable.

[Jakotsu]

Are there any rpgs out there where your choice to play as an certain race or gender actually had an major impact on gameplay or the development of the story? And if are they comparable to this game?

 

At this moment i would guess that you get the standart. For example: Female chars in "Fallout: New Vegas" weren't aloud to fight in the arena of caesars legion.

[Jayngo]

I'm hoping my female Elf Ranger I roll turns some heads. I could use the extra dialogue options. I'm a lover-not a fighter.

[Valmy]

Gender is not binary fyi

 

Of course not. I took Latin, everybody knows it is Ternary. 

[Luckmann]

Are there any rpgs out there where your choice to play as an certain race or gender actually had an major impact on gameplay or the development of the story? And if are they comparable to this game?

 

At this moment i would guess that you get the standart. For example: Female chars in "Fallout: New Vegas" weren't allowed to fight in the arena of caesars legion.

 

Really? I did not know that. That's pretty boss.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Luckmann

[Fredward]

 

Are there any rpgs out there where your choice to play as an certain race or gender actually had an major impact on gameplay or the development of the story? And if are they comparable to this game?

 

At this moment i would guess that you get the standart. For example: Female chars in "Fallout: New Vegas" weren't allowed to fight in the arena of caesars legion.

 

Really? I did not know that. That's pretty boss.

 

 

And they got to black widow Benny which is like the best part of the game.

[Luckmann]

 

 

Are there any rpgs out there where your choice to play as an certain race or gender actually had an major impact on gameplay or the development of the story? And if are they comparable to this game?

 

At this moment i would guess that you get the standart. For example: Female chars in "Fallout: New Vegas" weren't allowed to fight in the arena of caesars legion.

 

Really? I did not know that. That's pretty boss.

 

 

And they got to black widow Benny which is like the best part of the game.

 

 

That I actually knew, I just didn't think of it. I actually played through much of FONV with Black Widow.

[sparklecat]

I actually found the deep misogyny on the part of Caesar's Legion to be one of the game's only major faults, not because it didn't fit the setting (which it did, no complaints from a storytelling point of view), but because it effectively closed off one of the three main factions to anyone who habitually plays as female characters who are neither insane nor self-loathing (or, for that matter, someone who simply finds that sort of sexism hits a bit too close to home and doesn't want to deal with it in her leisure time).  The mental gymnastics required to come up with a coherent, enjoyable character concept for a woman who'd side with the Legion were beyond me, and I've still never completed a Legion playthrough because of it, which is a real shame when I otherwise enjoyed the game so much.

 

/digression

[PrimeJunta]

There are women joining the ISIS, so I'd say that reflects a lack of imagination on your part rather than anything wrong with the game.

[Valmy]

There are women joining the ISIS, so I'd say that reflects a lack of imagination on your part rather than anything wrong with the game.

 

Well he did say enjoyable character.

[Longknife]

I actually found the deep misogyny on the part of Caesar's Legion to be one of the game's only major faults, not because it didn't fit the setting (which it did, no complaints from a storytelling point of view), but because it effectively closed off one of the three main factions to anyone who habitually plays as female characters who are neither insane nor self-loathing (or, for that matter, someone who simply finds that sort of sexism hits a bit too close to home and doesn't want to deal with it in her leisure time).  The mental gymnastics required to come up with a coherent, enjoyable character concept for a woman who'd side with the Legion were beyond me, and I've still never completed a Legion playthrough because of it, which is a real shame when I otherwise enjoyed the game so much.

 

/digression

 

 

To be honest, it actually doesn't.

 

The thing about the Legion is the misogyny is logical, AKA, it only exists because pregnant women make for crappy warriors and producing offspring within the Legion is a top priority. Caesar himself is not misogynist and would see to it that you're treated with absolute respect, though of course there are Legionaires who have developed misogyny because they do not understand the why's of why women are not allowed to serve as Legionaires.

 

 In that sense though, if you're selfish and only care about yourself, then why should you care how other women get treated? You'd be golden. Hell, you could even argue your presence would provide the Legion with a much needed lesson that women are capable fighters too, it's just when making kids is top priority, then no, they cannot simultaneously do both like men can, thus they adopt the supportive role. That would kill the misogyny within the Legion and make them think more about the why of things.

 

 

Example of a coherent concept? Plenty of reasonable people have sided with and/or understood the Legion. Being one of those people should not be relevant to your gender in the sense that you are unaffected regardless and if you do care about the other women of the Legion, it could fall on you to be that example that teaches the Legion better.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Longknife

[PrimeJunta]

@Valmy Well yes, true.

 

That said, 'enjoyable' is subjective. I think it's a bit of a tall order to expect that every character concept the game allows is enjoyable for everyone. That's kind of the point of having many options and paths to take.

Edited March 25, 2015 by PrimeJunta

[Valmy]

 

The thing about the Legion is the misogyny is logical, AKA, it only exists because pregnant women make for crappy warriors and producing offspring within the Legion is a top priority. 

 

Eh it is a way of thinking that sees people as raw materials. You are either cannon fodder or a cannon fodder factory.

[Luckmann]

The background of the Legion is actually really well done, but it ultimately doesn't come across at all, and they are largely presented as rapacious raiders with few redeeming qualities. Caesar as a character is well done, I think, but it's a damn shame there weren't more to actually more substance to the Legion. Could've used a lot more Evola.

 

To be honest, it actually doesn't.

 

The thing about the Legion is the misogyny is logical, AKA, it only exists because pregnant women make for crappy warriors and producing offspring within the Legion is a top priority. Caesar himself is not misogynist and would see to it that you're treated with absolute respect, though of course there are Legionaires who have developed misogyny because they do not understand the why's of why women are not allowed to serve as Legionaires.

 

In that sense though, if you're selfish and only care about yourself, then why should you care how other women get treated? You'd be golden. Hell, you could even argue your presence would provide the Legion with a much needed lesson that women are capable fighters too, it's just when making kids is top priority, then no, they cannot simultaneously do both like men can, thus they adopt the supportive role. That would kill the misogyny within the Legion and make them think more about the why of things.

 

 

Example of a coherent concept? Plenty of reasonable people have sided with and/or understood the Legion. Being one of those people should not be relevant to your gender in the sense that you are unaffected regardless and if you do care about the other women of the Legion, it could fall on you to be that example that teaches the Legion better.

I'm not disagreeing with the interpretation, but it's a hell of an extrapolation based on available evidence, and the sad thing is that I would want to see this substantiated more in the actual game, but it's simply left largely hanging, and we are by and large left with the worst examples of the legion (burning towns, kneecappin' lowlifes, etc).

Edited March 25, 2015 by Luckmann

[Longknife]

 

 

The thing about the Legion is the misogyny is logical, AKA, it only exists because pregnant women make for crappy warriors and producing offspring within the Legion is a top priority. 

 

Eh it is a way of thinking that sees people as raw materials. You are either cannon fodder or a cannon fodder factory.

 

 

Which is a voice of concern regarding the Legion in general, not Legion in regards to women.

 

If you disagree with the Legion that's fine and perfectly understandable, but what I'm arguing is that should you be playing a character that views the Legion as neccesary for the greater good, then the misogyny shouldn't really neccesarily scare you off as a woman because you would be an absolute exception blessed by Caesar himself and you yourself (with Caesar's support) could show the Legion there's no reason to view women as inferior.