Can you respec?

[PrimeJunta]

Eh, you said:

 

I remember the very first time I played NWN2, and heard about Khelgar's quest to become a monk, so when leveling him up I did all I could to make that viable.

It sounded to me as if you meant that you had heard about the option from other players.

 

But if you were referring to Khelgar's in-game dialogue... Khelgar might want to become a monk, but knowing the D&D ruleset, even just the rules as presented in that video game, a player could reasonably assume that Khelgar would be unable to become a monk or that the devs would allow some kind of respec to make it viable.

 

Without a respec, in order to make informed decisions when leveling him, you would need to know in advance whether or not Khelgar would actually get the chance to change his class to monk, hence you would need metagame knowledge.

 

Yes, I was referring to Khelgar's in-game dialog.

 

Yes, I did assume that Khelgar would eventually become a monk. Companion quests are a thing, and I assumed as a matter of course that since Khelgar's companion quest is about him becoming a monk, that would eventually happen. I did not make any assumptions on how that would happen, other than what the game told me. Up to the point where actually became a monk, it went pretty much as I expected, except that the Trials just sort of happened.

 

I did assume Khelgar would eventually multi-class to monk. Why? Because quests like this generally resolve. As to the requirements, the only one he doesn't meet is alignment -- he starts out as Neutral Good, while monks are Lawful only. That would be a more-than-natural thing to change in a quest. There was nothing there to indicate that a full respec was to be expected.

 

(As a matter of fact, I would've felt less gypped if there had been no option for Khelgar to become a monk after all. That all his quest resolutions would have resulted in him realizing that a monk's life is not for him. The reward could've been, say, a bonus monk-y feat or two plus ability bonuses.)

Edited March 22, 2015 by PrimeJunta

[ddillon]

I did assume Khelgar would eventually multi-class to monk. Why? Because quests like this generally resolve. As to the requirements, the only one he doesn't meet is alignment -- he starts out as Neutral Good, while monks are Lawful only. That would be a more-than-natural thing to change in a quest. There was nothing there to indicate that a full respec was to be expected.

Been a long while since I played NWN2... Doesn't he start with mediocre Dex and awful Wisdom?

 

But I haven't built/played any PC monks in 3rd/3.5e... so perhaps those stats aren't as important to the class as I thought. :not sure:

Edited March 22, 2015 by ddillon

[Dongom]

Well since there is no dual classing I don't see the issue with respec.

 

Like if a Wizard respecs he's still gonna do wizardy stuff with spells.   A monk will still use his monk abilities and wounds. It would only break immersion/RP if he suddenly changed class. A simple attribute, minor skill, and feat change doesn't break immersion/RP imo.

 

People always change minor specializations within an area of a major expertise.  Not sure why when it's in a video game it's sacrilegious all of a sudden

 

Hell even Slippin Jimmy' now only does Elder Law rather than Criminal Law, but he's still a Lawyer! And the world still goes round'

Edited March 22, 2015 by Dongom

[soedenone]

A "respec" option often feels either shoehorned in to placate users, or is used as an attempt to patch shoddy, lacking game-balancing.

 

My biggest issue with it would just be rehasing users like PrimeJunta from this thread. It takes me out of the game, when I see such an option, and completely breaks immersion. It makes charaction decisions leading up to that decisive moment feel trivial (as they can be undone) and as such is detrimental to my enjoyment of the game.

 

I personally enjoy doing different things character-wise in RPGs and don't mind turning down the difficulty to play a particular type of character, just like I don't mind turning it up for the same reason. That doesn't mean I don't see where the other side is coming from; it can be frustrating to make poor judgement calls, whether based on misunderstanding, ignorance or otherwise and then having to restart to "correct" such mistakes - but ultimately that is part of the fun for me and having a "respec" option would simply detract from my fun, which is why I would never support such an implementation.

 

There is one thing that hasn't really been touched on in this thread, however. It seems advocates of the idea are under the impression that just having the option to "respec" once, won't be that big of a deal. First of all, let's toy around with the idea that there is some kind of lore explanation of this mechanic being in the game in the first place, so it isn't as stupid as other games do not. Now, let's think about what being able to "respec" once does. If it is at a set point in the game/story, then you have to live with your mistakes in character development up until that point. It could be five, ten, fifteen hours into the game. Not only that, but you would be unable to correct any future mistakes after that point, either.

 

If it is something offered to you at a point, as a one-time use that the player then decides when to use, it also renders the point moot: If mistakes have been made at that point, the item will be consumed instantly, to correct those same mistakes - and has the same problem as the option above.

 

Having a singular "respec" ultimately solves nothing. If a character is found, five hours in, to be "built" in a poor fashion but has to play another five or ten hours to "respec", where does that leave us?

 

Ultimately, I don't think a one-time-use "respec" solves any problems at all. Assuming the player understands the mechanics of the game at the point at which they receive the boon, they are more than likely in a position where their character is already not useless - albeit not 100% optimized. If they do not understand the mechanics at that point, then a "respec" does not help them at all.

 

Honestly, I don't understand this whole idea of catering towards people that can't think; isn't that exactly what we were moving away from, with the kickstarter and crowdfunding?

 

A "respec" option as a way to combat bugs and erroneous/misleading skill descriptions (which seems to be Gromnirs main point) makes a lot more sense, but would still bring me, personally, out of the game when it is encountered in the game - and shouldn't such an option, if it is indeed only to combat bugs and poor communication, be available for unlimited uses?

Edited March 22, 2015 by soedenone

[PrimeJunta]

 

I did assume Khelgar would eventually multi-class to monk. Why? Because quests like this generally resolve. As to the requirements, the only one he doesn't meet is alignment -- he starts out as Neutral Good, while monks are Lawful only. That would be a more-than-natural thing to change in a quest. There was nothing there to indicate that a full respec was to be expected.

Been a long while since I played NWN2... Doesn't he start with mediocre Dex and awful Wisdom?

 

But I haven't built/played any PC monks in 3rd/3.5e... so perhaps those stats aren't as important to the class as I thought. :not sure:

 

Yup. DX 13 WIS 10. That's a far cry from optimal for a monk, even a fighter/monk, especially WIS, but hey, since when were cRPG pre-made companion stats perfect? -- Also, there are Periapts of Wisdom and such available and craftable which can bump it into decent numbers. FWIW I put every ability point he got into WIS just for the monk multiclass, and we all know just how useful WIS is for a pure fighter. Gypped, I tell you.

 

@Dongom: I already said I wouldn't object to the possibility for minor readjustments, like swapping one talent for another, or moving a couple points from one stat to another. And as I said, I'm all for savegame/character editors and console commands. What I object to is in-game respec: re-leveling up from level 0, even if the class, background, and, say, attribute numbers are kept.

[Diogenes]

I'm the RPG ubermensch and I always make perfect choices, anyone who does anything suboptimal is literal subhuman scum who should be ground beneath my boot. Plebs should pull themself up by their bootstraps and have perfect knowledge of the game, we enable them by letting them make up for their mistakes. They shouldn't be making them in the first place!

Edited March 22, 2015 by Diogenes

[portedgoblin]

A way to handle this would be to remove the difficulty slider and instead have a selection when you start a new game for all these types of options, including enemy difficulty, Trial of Iron, 1 respec, free respecs, dialog options showing stats etc. and the game would then tell you: Based on your selections your difficulty rating is 4/10.

 

You would not be able to change these settings later and so you could decide before hand if you wanted an easier play through with some respecs or have your choices matter a bit more without.

[Ohioastro]

Honestly, I don't understand this whole idea of catering towards people that can't think; isn't that exactly what we were moving away from, with the kickstarter and crowdfunding?

 

 

That's really insulting; do you actually mean it?

 

If i want to try out a fire vs. ice damage build in a class, does  that I mean I can't think?  Ranged vs. melee?

I thought that we were bringing back more of an emphasis on world-building, less of an emphasis on graphics, more challenging encounters and interesting dialog.  I didn't support PoE because I wanted to worship every single game design mistake that caused the old-school games to become unpopular in the first place.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Ohioastro

[barjed]

Well, I'd bet good money on some kind of a save editor emerging that will enable free respeccing to anyone, who wants it. Therefore this crusade of people who are against said respec is pointless. You are arguing against something that will happen anyway.

 

Furthermore, I must say, I do not understand you guys at all. This game is a classical single player RPG to be enjoyed as a comfy, personal experience. In the end, the decision of how a player envisions his character development and choices should is not a multiplayer gbe his. I think this could be remedied with something like a selectable "Ironman" option before the game starts. If someone wants to live with his decisions for good and bad, let him. If someone doesn't, well, let him. In the end, it's your game, I don't think it matters if Joe down the street pisses on his valiant hero's developments and wants to shoot fire instead of ice now.

[Tildryn]

 

Honestly, I don't understand this whole idea of catering towards people that can't think; isn't that exactly what we were moving away from, with the kickstarter and crowdfunding?

 

The Kickstarter and crowdfunding were to secure funding for a niche title that mainstream publishers were no longer likely to support; not to buttress your sense of elitism.

[Dongom]

Yeah no one should really be  too concerned about this, people make editor's very fast for these kind of games.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Dongom

[Stun]

 

Honestly, I don't understand this whole idea of catering towards people that can't think; isn't that exactly what we were moving away from, with the kickstarter and crowdfunding?

 

The Kickstarter and crowdfunding were to secure funding for a niche title that mainstream publishers were no longer likely to support; not to buttress your sense of elitism.

 

...Says the guy who's first post on this forum was a comment about the "Grognard level" of this thread. (as if we old schoolers are a pile of toxic waste to be measured or something)

 

In any case, elitism or not, there will be no respec mechanic in this game. Thankfully, the devs have decided that time and resources will be spent on bug fixing from here on out, and that in the meantime, the game has a console prompt... for those people who think it's 'unfair', or 'unreasonable' or 'unfun' or 'too harsh' to have to play the game from beginning to end without the ability to edit their characters at will.

 

I'm happy, how about you?

Edited March 22, 2015 by Stun

[soedenone]

 

Honestly, I don't understand this whole idea of catering towards people that can't think; isn't that exactly what we were moving away from, with the kickstarter and crowdfunding?

 

 

That's really insulting; do you actually mean it?

 

If i want to try out a fire vs. ice damage build in a class, does  that I mean I can't think?  Ranged vs. melee?

I thought that we were bringing back more of an emphasis on world-building, less of an emphasis on graphics, more challenging encounters and interesting dialog.  I didn't support PoE because I wanted to worship every single game design mistake that caused the old-school games to become unpopular in the first place.

 

Yes, I do mean it.

 

I don't see how anything else you wrote is even remotely relevant; did you even read my post, outside of that small snippet?

 

If you want to try out different builds, you should knock yourself out. I know I will try just about anything under the sun, myself. I don't see how that mean a "respec" function should be present in the game. How are those things related in the slightest? You want to try different characters? Make different characters. Nobody is stopping you.

 

 

 

 

Honestly, I don't understand this whole idea of catering towards people that can't think; isn't that exactly what we were moving away from, with the kickstarter and crowdfunding?

 

The Kickstarter and crowdfunding were to secure funding for a niche title that mainstream publishers were no longer likely to support; not to buttress your sense of elitism.

 

I like to think downgrading and "streamlining" to cater to a more "mainstream audience" is what crowdfunding enable a developer to ignore. In fact I'm quite sure of it. That is why Pillars of Eternity is being made: Because you and I, along with thousands of others, proved the big publishers wrong. There is a market, and it is us.

 

To me, the type of game that Pillars of Eternity is would simply be cheapened greatly by including a "respec" mechanic. Please refer to my earlier post for a slightly more in-depth discussion, thanks.

[Silent Winter]

Well, I'd bet good money on some kind of a save editor emerging that will enable free respeccing to anyone, who wants it. Therefore this crusade of people who are against said respec is pointless. You are arguing against something that will happen anyway.

Exactly my point, but wrong conclusion - we're arguing that you'll be able to do it anyway so there doesn't need to be a waste of dev-time and bug-checking to put one into the game - console and character-editor can satisfy both camps' needs

[Lady Evenstar]

I can't recall having respecced a character in a single-player game (except by reloading an earlier save), but I think that frequent patching does change things a bit. If abilities are changed in ways that make your character unfun or ineffective, you can restart, respec, or play through consequences that you didn't really choose. Similarly, should the player be penalized for "choosing" a broken stat or ability that doesn't actually do what the tooltip promised, e.g. encountering the dexterity bug in DAO?  And, some folks just like to play around with builds. Even if a feature is "cheap" in the context of an RP playthrough, it could be worth including to support other playstyles. Even if I'm personally uncomfortable with respeccing, I can see reasons to offer it (and conditions under which I might resort to it).

[StubbinMyToe]

This is something I feel strongly about. For me, respec broke Diablo 3.

 

Endless respec means that every character has exactly the same potential. Thus, every character is the same. What a terrible thing to do to an RPG.

 

 

Why did you respec your character then?  Also, PoE has no online mode.

[StubbinMyToe]

This discussion is moot because if they do not add respec, you can simply use a game save editor to do it anyway.   This discussion is stupid because we have a single player game here,  if someone decides to respec it does not in any way impact other players!  If you do not like it, just don't do it, simple as that.

 

Anyway. like I said there will be savegame editors, there already are!  So the discussion is moot!

[Creslin321]

Wow so I was trying to find out if there was a respec option in POE, and I found this thread.  And I've gotta say, all the arguments against respec seem like they boil down to:

 

"Someone that I will likely never talk to or interact with in my life may play this game in a manner I disapprove of, and that deeply offends me."

 

Look, I can get the appeal of playing a more "hardcore" game with really difficult fights and no respec.  I like to do that myself sometimes.  But why you would care that OTHER people may be respeccing, when you clearly have the ability to play how you want is beyond me.

 

I also saw a lot of arguments that respeccing is "cheating."  Well my response to this is...so??  Even if another person is unequivocally cheating by giving themselves max level right at the beginning of the game...what do you care?  That person is playing how they want to, and given that it's a single player game, it is absolutely zero impact on you.

 

Also, if you're going to complain about respec, why stop there?  Why not rail against the fact that the game features difficulties other than "Path of the Damned?"  Because heaven forbid if someone might want an easier combat experience in the game.

 

All in all, I see no real argument against giving people the option to use a feature that you may disapprove of.  And it kind of saddens me that people actively argue AGAINST the inclusion of a popular feature, even if it's made optional.

[Magrusaod]

Frankly, I'd like to respec the pre-made companions with all of the dialogue and story centered around them. Looking at the companions I am picking up, I just don't want to use them. I don't want to play a party with those stats, I have other things in mind. However, I *would* like to hear about their stories and the interesting dialogues the Dev team took time to put together. Leaving me with an issue. Do I put simply, suffer through playing characters I don't want to play with to deal with the story once that I paid for? Or do I just outright ignore them utterly the entire time I play this game because I just frankly, truly dislike the way they are put together? A respec feature bypasses this issue completely. Letting me use these characters in a way that I enjoy while getting the juicy plot/story that I see developing. 

 

Also, sometimes a guy wants to try out a random concept, and gets through a game and realizes "Damn, this character really will not function in this game. I've spent 25 hours on this, and I simply can't go any further without this character dying endlessly as I reload furiously trying to complete my quests." In that instance, it makes sense to have a feature where you can just switch around things so you don't have to throw up your hands and start from level 1 again. 

[Lephys]

Ehh... I think the arguments against it are being horrendously oversimplified/misrepresented.

 

If there were a barrel of legendary weapons in the very first area in which you gain character control at the start of the game, would that be totally cool, simply because you could just not interact with it? What if, when your characters died, you could actually just click a big "Resurrect" button, free of charge, that would get them back up on their feet? Would that be fine, because it's optional? Maybe a button that turns the game into Mario Kart? Hey, it's optional, so it can't be a bad idea.

 

There are certain things that just don't really fit with the design of a game, optional or not. There's nothing wrong with respeccing, in and of itself, but you don't need to be able to do it in a game like PoE.

 

You've basically got two potential issues:

 

1) You accidentally build your character in a way you did not want to, because you weren't clear on your options or what led to what. OR

2) You build your character in such a way that it becomes useless in any capacity halfway through the game.

 

The latter is already untrue in PoE, so that only leaves the former. Once you read up on what all your options do, it seems pretty difficult to have no idea you're building your character to Deflect things and attack quickly instead of dealing lots of damage, or to be able to only handle 1 target at a time instead of a bunch, etc. So, the only thing you can do, really, is to intentionally build a character a certain way, then just decide you hate that later on, and flippantly wish to respec.

 

I realize that in games in which it is easy to make a useless character, respec acts as a roadside assistance there. But, really, a game shouldn't let you do that. So it's not on principle that the game should let you respec so that you can fix broken builds, any more than it's principle that you should carry around lots of bandages in case you arbitrarily stab an innocent bystander at a restaurant. You shouldn't stab people in the first place, and if you didn't do that, there'd be no need for a respec.

[Creslin321]

Ehh... I think the arguments against it are being horrendously oversimplified/misrepresented.

 

If there were a barrel of legendary weapons in the very first area in which you gain character control at the start of the game, would that be totally cool, simply because you could just not interact with it? What if, when your characters died, you could actually just click a big "Resurrect" button, free of charge, that would get them back up on their feet? Would that be fine, because it's optional? Maybe a button that turns the game into Mario Kart? Hey, it's optional, so it can't be a bad idea.

 

There are certain things that just don't really fit with the design of a game, optional or not. There's nothing wrong with respeccing, in and of itself, but you don't need to be able to do it in a game like PoE.

 

You've basically got two potential issues:

 

1) You accidentally build your character in a way you did not want to, because you weren't clear on your options or what led to what. OR

2) You build your character in such a way that it becomes useless in any capacity halfway through the game.

 

The latter is already untrue in PoE, so that only leaves the former. Once you read up on what all your options do, it seems pretty difficult to have no idea you're building your character to Deflect things and attack quickly instead of dealing lots of damage, or to be able to only handle 1 target at a time instead of a bunch, etc. So, the only thing you can do, really, is to intentionally build a character a certain way, then just decide you hate that later on, and flippantly wish to respec.

 

I realize that in games in which it is easy to make a useless character, respec acts as a roadside assistance there. But, really, a game shouldn't let you do that. So it's not on principle that the game should let you respec so that you can fix broken builds, any more than it's principle that you should carry around lots of bandages in case you arbitrarily stab an innocent bystander at a restaurant. You shouldn't stab people in the first place, and if you didn't do that, there'd be no need for a respec.

 

Respec isn't just for if you screwed up your character.  The reason I like respec so much is I always get bored with my character and want to try something new, but i don't want to go through 30 hours of content again to do so.  Respeccing helps me keep interested and invested in the game.  There are many times where I just stopped playing a game because combat got too monotonous.

 

Also, I'm not saying that people should just throw any semblance of balance out the window.  Letting someone respec for money is clearly not the same as giving someone the best weapon at the beginning of the game.

 

But at the same time, imagine that there are players that really enjoy the story of PoE, but hate combat.  Would it be completely unreasonable to include a "casual" difficulty setting for them that made every combat encounter trivial?

 

It's definitely something I wouldn't choose, but I have have 0 problems with it being in the game.

 

The whole point here is that the game should allow you options, but then stay true to those options.  If I choose hard, I don't want a crate of legendary weapons.  If I choose casual, then maybe I do want it.

 

So when I say that respec should be optional, I don't mean that it is included in the game but you can just choose not to do it.  I mean that they should just make a check box when you start a new game on whether respec will be in or not.

[hairspun]

I would like an option to be able to respec some talents.

[Stun]

Respec isn't just for if you screwed up your character.  The reason I like respec so much is I always get bored with my character and want to try something new, but i don't want to go through 30 hours of content again to do so.  Respeccing helps me keep interested and invested in the game.  There are many times where I just stopped playing a game because combat got too monotonous.

Getting bored with a game because its combat is too monotonous is a specific gripe about the monotony of combat, not of the way one built their character. But if the argument is that "I built my character a certain way, and now he's too boring", then the game already offers a solution. Make a party. This IS a party based game, remember? And the combat isn't about just your character, it's about your whole party. I think vanilla fighters in PoE are relatively dull no matter how you build them. But that's totally fine. I'll simply wind Eder up and let him do his own thing in combat, while I take full control and management of my Barbarian, my Monk and my Cipher. Edited March 27, 2015 by Stun

[Creslin321]

 

Respec isn't just for if you screwed up your character.  The reason I like respec so much is I always get bored with my character and want to try something new, but i don't want to go through 30 hours of content again to do so.  Respeccing helps me keep interested and invested in the game.  There are many times where I just stopped playing a game because combat got too monotonous.

Getting bored with a game because its combat is too monotonous is a specific gripe about the monotony of combat, not of the way one built their character. But if the argument is that "I built my character a certain way, and now he's too boring", then the game already offers a solution. Make a party. This IS a party based game, remember? And the combat isn't about just your character, it's about your whole party. I think vanilla fighters in PoE are relatively dull no matter how you build them. But that's totally fine. I'll simply wind Eder up and let him do his own thing in combat, while I take full control and management of my Barbarian, my Monk and my Cipher.

 

 

The argument applies to every character in the party.  Maybe you want to try a specific build for your party but you've already invested a lot of talents.  I frequently respecced my party in WL2 and NWN2:  Storm of Zehir for this reason.  Without a respec, the only way to do this would be to literally start from scratch and go through ALL of the game again just to try something else.

 

Anyway, I want to say that I think the way you want to play the game is entirely valid.  I completely get the appeal of wanting to play a more hardcore mode with no respec, and other difficult restrictions, and sometimes even I like playing like that.  But I also find great enjoyment in trying out different party/character builds and seeing how they work.

 

What I don't get is why you have an issue with people respeccing their characters when it literally has no effect on you whatsoever.  I mean, if they let you check a box in the beginning that disabled respec, or if they have an achievement for beating the game without respeccing...then how does the game including a respec option hurt you at all?

[Stun]

I have NO issue with people doing anything. My issue is with a game like PoE adopting these absurd, modern game, no-fail safety net mechanics.

 

A respec feature? Really? Give me a break. PoE is a rare *gem*. A one in a million classic RPG where character building is actually part of the game's *challenge*. If they were to put a respec feature in the game, it'd be no different than being given the chance to "redo" a missed play in a football game, or some other ridiculousness that goes against the spirit of the game itself.