White People: What They Say in Public vs Behind Closed Doors

[Nonek]

Reminds me I haven't read the Jewel in the Skull in years, must remedy that.

[Longknife]

 

 

 

tl;dr I feel you guys are unfairly exaggerating the percent of anti-semites within Germany because it's easy to do so given Germany's history, but the reality is that the same percent can probably be found within every first world country.

 

 

I'd agree with you there.  Anti-semitism quite clearly exists in the US, it just tends to take a backseat to many of the other popular forms of intolerance and hatred at this time.  

 

and yet, that is far different than the earlier claim by longknife:

 

"The days of racism against Jews in Germany are absolutely dead. Sure, of course you could find a loon if you wanted to, but the percent of the population that would support such opinions is so tiny it's not worth mentioning."

 

the populations that would support is worth mentioning. numerous news outlets mentioned.  the government created "a new government commission on anti-Semitism" 'cause it were mentioned and were worthy o' mention... even though they screwed that up in a major way.  

 

there is continuing anti-semitism in the US and europe and germany specific.  pretend that isn't the case is denial of the worst sort.  and blame on muslims alone is as ignorant and myopic as Americans believing that here in the US, intolerance o' jews is limited to nazis and white supremacists. pretend that the days of racism against jews in Germany is dead is wrong on so many levels and for so many reasons.

 

  It's not far different, you're interpreting it that way. I said they're not worth mentioning and I meant that in the grand scheme of things, you would not hear "Neo-Nazi" and think "Germany," just as you would not think "UK" or "Italy" or "USA." That does not mean however that all three of those lack Neo-Nazis entirely; no, all of the above have some degree of Neo-Nazi presence, it's just so small it lacks any real power or influence.

 

More importantly...

 

Recheck your sources. If the "new" government commission (could not find this in the articles, though the second is now wanting me to subscribe to re-read it, screw that) is the 60 years old one that's existed for ages seen here: http://www.zentralratdjuden.de/de/

 

Then no, that's not new. Your first link is also within the context of another Israel-Palestine spat with Germany taking the initiative and doing an anti-anti-semitism rally within Berlin, when the anti-semitist commentary were found all across Europe within cities like London and Paris as well. It's all right here in the very article your first opinion piece link leads to and builds off of: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/15/world/europe/germans-rally-to-protest-anti-semitism-over-gaza-war.html

 

The very same string of articles will also go on to say:

 

 

Most surprising perhaps, a wave of incidents has washed over Germany, where atonement for the Holocaust and other Nazi crimes is a bedrock of the modern society.

 

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/02/world/europe/anger-in-europe-over-the-israeli-gaza-conflict-reverberates-as-anti-semitism.html

 

Yeah, that's just it: it's most surprising here because like I'm trying to tell you, my experience with Germans has been an attitude of "I'm very sorry, please let me atone for my grandfather." At worst, you get a "wtf I didn't do that crap that was my grandfather, stop trying to accuse me of that and let me live in peace," which is still absolutely right, it's just not as admirable and adorable. The article itself has a tone of the anti-semitism being LEAST expected in Germany, in an article discussing a string of anti-semitism throughout Europe as a whole in response to a Gaza conflict.

 

That's exactly how it always is: Germany takes the initiative on this stuff and tries to combat it. As I said, good luck finding a Neo-Nazi party demonstration in a city that is countered with a counter-protest 100 times it's size or more. Yet you're sitting here pointing the finger at Germany and saying "see, they took counter-measures! That means it's more serious there!!" No dude, you're talking about a culture that's either incredibly ashamed or trying to improve it's reputation. You're basically faulting Germany for going to lengths to make counter measures against the attitude and remind people racism is bad when Paris and London comparatively did jack all when faced with the exact same problems. (or at least it's not mentioned) You are suggesting that because we have clear examples of anti-semitism in Germany listed clearly by the German government or police reports, but you do not take into account the fact that international news would naturally show more interest in German stories on the matter. German stories of anti-semitism? Those'll possibly hit international news. French ones? Unless France is producing a new Hitler, no one will care. Brilliant example is again Russia, which I'd dare say you could probably find as many examples of German incidents as Russian incidents, though the Russian incidents are going to be undeniably more drastic and numerous, it's just Germany's name helps keep it's stories relevant.

 

 

  Look dude, if you wanna have a "let's trashtalk Germany" party, I would gladly be in attendance. I could gladly rant about how people here just act miserable and don't even make an effort to be nice to each other half the time. I could gladly rant about how a friend of mine for example is currently on a quest to get one of her roommates to do more stuff and leave his bedroom; well-intentioned in theory, but I'll be damned if there aren't waaaay too many Germans who think they know the best lifestyle and that justifies them shoving their lifestyle choices down everyone's throats and forcing it upon them like anal retentive jerks. I will gladly talk about how although Germans can rightfully defend how blunt and honest they are, they're also lacking in sympathy to a degree that they seem incapable of sugar-coating things or voicing constructive criticism politely.

   On top of it all, Jesus Christ Germany, develop a freaking sense of humor so I don't have to listen to you guys flip out when someone makes a Nazi joke. If they're joking then it means they know it's not true (anymore) and that you can relax and laugh with them. There's no reason to get defensive or offended; you do not see America flipping out when you counter with jokes about what war tyrants the USA is or how Americans are fat and stupid.

 

 

 

  But this? Quite frankly, this pisses me off because it goes against every experience I've ever had since living here, and I cannot help but feel like it's prejudice based on the past, not on the now. The worst of it is it validates and justifies all those Germans who flip out when people imply all Germans are Nazis...

 

   Ever since I moved here, I cannot for the life of me ask a German's opinion on America without their opinion ending with "....but America is still a very important and great country. They've done so much for the world and for us, especially in WWII." I cannot ask an opinion on Israel without things getting awkward as they noticeably try to refrain from any negative opinions on Israeli politics as though they don't believe they have a right to criticize; probably a good half are like this with only the other half being bold enough to state their opinion, and again that's just their basic opinion on the politics or war and not something outrageous like "I hate jews." This portion of German culture is one of the things I find to be one of the most admirable...I dare not ever say it to their faces cause Germans can also be full of themselves really quick so I think even acknowledging it might ruin it (humorously, I recall a top-voted reddit thread on the world cup subreddit after Germany's victory, written by a dutch guy basically acknowledging this and saying nothing but "hey...Germany...it's ok. You can show some pride in your country, it's natural." Jumped out at me cause it was like a "cool, I'm not the only one to notice it and be hesitant to tell them it's ok."), but that does not change how admirable it can be. There's a desire there to become something better.

 

 

 

  I get this whole discussion devolves into anecdotal evidence as we all are drawing off personal experiences here, but to my knowledge I'm the most familiar with this culture of all the people involved with the discussion, and as I've stated, this whole thing rubs me the wrong way because I feel like you're focusing on Germany not because the situation is more dire here or extremely significant, but rather because we all associate "Germany" with "Hitler" so it's easier to shine the bad light on Germany in this regard. Sure enough, the very articles you cite all stem from spikes of anti-semitism during Gaza conflicts, and they mention ALL of Europe, with Germany only getting special focus for it's history, it's expanded attempts to combat the anti-semitists, and even for being the most surprising of all the countries to actually show some signs of it.

[BruceVC]

Germany made a huge mistake in making Nazi symbolism illegal. That's right, you can't actually show a swastika in Germany without special permission. They should have marginalized and ridiculed them instead. Imagine the cool factor you can have simply by virtue of being officially forbidden.

 

This story of a resurgent extreme right in Europe has been told on and off for several decades though. I wonder if anyone has any concrete figures to back it up, remember we are talking about underground movements here.

 

 

 

Germany made a huge mistake in making Nazi symbolism illegal. That's right, you can't actually show a swastika in Germany without special permission. They should have marginalized and ridiculed them instead. Imagine the cool factor you can have simply by virtue of being officially forbidden.

 

I very much agree with this. Both disillusioned young people and young people who just want to look cool by rebelling will take any chance they get to appear anti-establishment, giving real neo-Nazis the perfect hook to get their claws into young people.

 

Of course, some people will just blame it on the gaming community.

 

 

I  have to disagree with what you guys are suggesting the Germans should have done after WW2. They weren't just dealing with a few hate groups that were more criminal than truly dangerous to the government or society

 

They were dealing with a form of fascism that had really and utterly devastated there society, they weren't thinking of the future and how disillusioned members of the German society may regress back into it. They wanted to completely distance themselves from it and the NAZI swastika represented  everything that was corrupted and dysfunctional from there society and history. They were right to ban it , sometimes you need to take perceived heavy steps to address issues 

Edited March 14, 2015 by BruceVC

[Gromnir]

 

we didn't read it.  so, let us know if you is denying that jews in Germany still suffer from bigotry and intolerance or if you is admitting such stuff exists but that you are blaming on muslims. either way we can rebut, so it don't genuine matter, but is no sense responding to both. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Most German's I've met have been pretty miserable and humorless fellows. That your experience too Longknife? And is it because they killed all the funny people?

[BruceVC]

We have a large,thriving, happy and relevant German community in South Africa...I love the German Beerfests 

[ManifestedISO]

I met a German couple in uptown, the gentleman was serious, but long-suffering, quiet, cordial. Pretty great chef. She was a carefully contained riot. I laughed so much I was forced to remark that I thought Germans could never be this funny. Like I mean hilarious in an emotionally gratifying way. She even later asked in a platonic, well-met tone, was it possible for random encounters to produce genuine connections. I said absolutely. 

[Valsuelm]

 

Germany made a huge mistake in making Nazi symbolism illegal. That's right, you can't actually show a swastika in Germany without special permission. They should have marginalized and ridiculed them instead. Imagine the cool factor you can have simply by virtue of being officially forbidden.

 

This story of a resurgent extreme right in Europe has been told on and off for several decades though. I wonder if anyone has any concrete figures to back it up, remember we are talking about underground movements here.

 

 

 

Germany made a huge mistake in making Nazi symbolism illegal. That's right, you can't actually show a swastika in Germany without special permission. They should have marginalized and ridiculed them instead. Imagine the cool factor you can have simply by virtue of being officially forbidden.

 

I very much agree with this. Both disillusioned young people and young people who just want to look cool by rebelling will take any chance they get to appear anti-establishment, giving real neo-Nazis the perfect hook to get their claws into young people.

 

Of course, some people will just blame it on the gaming community.

 

 

I  have to disagree with what you guys are suggesting the Germans should have done after WW2. They weren't just dealing with a few hate groups that were more criminal than truly dangerous to the government or society

 

They were dealing with a form of fascism that had really and utterly devastated there society, they weren't thinking of the future and how disillusioned members of the German society may regress back into it. They wanted to completely distance themselves from it and the NAZI swastika represented  everything that was corrupted and dysfunctional from there society and history. They were right to ban it , sometimes you need to take perceived heavy steps to address issues 

 

 

The Germans generally were thinking no such thing. The Allied powers pretty much forced all of this at gun point, with the US and UK holding the most guns. The Germans had little voice in the matter.

 

Banning a symbol, banning discussion of certain topics, etc is downright evil.

 

One should question why this was done. It wasn't done for the superficial reasons you're thinking Bruce. In very short, it was done to make sure the narrative given by the Allied powers was accepted and not questioned. The phrase, 'the winners write the history books' is possibly never more aptly used than when WW2 is concerned.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

They were dealing with a form of fascism that had really and utterly devastated there society, they weren't thinking of the future and how disillusioned members of the German society may regress back into it. They wanted to completely distance themselves from it and the NAZI swastika represented  everything that was corrupted and dysfunctional from there society and history. They were right to ban it , sometimes you need to take perceived heavy steps to address issues 

 

 

The Germans generally were thinking no such thing. The Allied powers pretty much forced all of this at gun point, with the US and UK holding the most guns. The Germans had little voice in the matter.

 

Banning a symbol, banning discussion of certain topics, etc is downright evil.

 

One should question why this was done. It wasn't done for the superficial reasons you're thinking Bruce. In very short, it was done to make sure the narrative given by the Allied powers was accepted and not questioned. The phrase, 'the winners write the history books' is possibly never more aptly used than when WW2 is concerned.

 

 

Sorry I don't believe that, I'm sure the majority of Germans realized by then that Nazism was a failed ideology and were glad it was over. So they weren't forced by the Allies to criminalize symbols like the Swastika, they wanted to do this as they wanted to start focusing on the future and didn't want certain reminders 

Edited March 14, 2015 by BruceVC

[Valsuelm]

 

 

 

 

They were dealing with a form of fascism that had really and utterly devastated there society, they weren't thinking of the future and how disillusioned members of the German society may regress back into it. They wanted to completely distance themselves from it and the NAZI swastika represented  everything that was corrupted and dysfunctional from there society and history. They were right to ban it , sometimes you need to take perceived heavy steps to address issues 

 

 

The Germans generally were thinking no such thing. The Allied powers pretty much forced all of this at gun point, with the US and UK holding the most guns. The Germans had little voice in the matter.

 

Banning a symbol, banning discussion of certain topics, etc is downright evil.

 

One should question why this was done. It wasn't done for the superficial reasons you're thinking Bruce. In very short, it was done to make sure the narrative given by the Allied powers was accepted and not questioned. The phrase, 'the winners write the history books' is possibly never more aptly used than when WW2 is concerned.

 

 

Sorry I don't believe that, I'm sure the majority of Germans realized by then that Nazism was a failed ideology and were glad it was over. So they weren't forced by the Allies to criminalize symbols like the Swastika, they wanted to do this as they wanted to start focusing on the future and didn't want certain reminders 

 

 

How about you actually go and read some history books. This isn't a matter of believing or not believing, this isn't a question of spirituality or faith, it's a matter or what happened or didn't. A great deal of this particular subject is written in numerous books, transcripts, interviews, etc.

 

I realize your world view might be shaken, hence you ignore so much of what is in this world, past and present. Better to hold on to your mythology, than to objectively delve into the archives of what's what, or think past a superficial level. You suffer confirmation bias on a level I've rarely encountered in this world. So much so that even I have wondered if you're nothing more than a troll as others here have asserted. Objectivity is seemingly anathema to you in regards to so much you ever discuss.

 

The truth is, that in post WW2 Germany you would be hard pressed to find a group of random Germans where the majority of them thought that Nazism was their #1 problem rather than the folks who were occupying their nation, bombed and killed ~8-10% of the population, and had started a war with them. This simple fact really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone with even the tiniest understanding of human nature, or even contentious. It makes oodles and oodles of sense if one thinks about it. But even today, a very large number of Germans (in particular those middle aged or older who either lived through it or got stories first hand from their parents as to what happened), would not agree with the idea that Nazis were their main problem. And even of those who thought Nazis were a problem, most people aren't stupid enough to think that banning a symbol or discussion of certain topics is the way to solve that problem or anything at all to do with any kind of freedom.

 

As for Nazism being a failed ideology. Well... there's a lot to that ideology, as there is to nearly any political movement's ideology, and quite a lot of it is alive and well in the modern western world. Heck, almost all of it, both the good and bad parts. But I'd wager quite a lot that if you had a gun to your head you couldn't even say what much of that political ideology even entails, hence you thinking it's failed. Nevermind the fact that it didn't fail any more than the political ideology of any nation that's ever lost a war. War ended Nazism, the compete defeat of Germany by the Allied powers ended Nazism because those powers wanted it dead. Nazism didn't fail on it's own. In fact, prior to that war, it was doing amazingly well by most standards.

Edited March 14, 2015 by Valsuelm

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

 

They were dealing with a form of fascism that had really and utterly devastated there society, they weren't thinking of the future and how disillusioned members of the German society may regress back into it. They wanted to completely distance themselves from it and the NAZI swastika represented  everything that was corrupted and dysfunctional from there society and history. They were right to ban it , sometimes you need to take perceived heavy steps to address issues 

 

 

The Germans generally were thinking no such thing. The Allied powers pretty much forced all of this at gun point, with the US and UK holding the most guns. The Germans had little voice in the matter.

 

Banning a symbol, banning discussion of certain topics, etc is downright evil.

 

One should question why this was done. It wasn't done for the superficial reasons you're thinking Bruce. In very short, it was done to make sure the narrative given by the Allied powers was accepted and not questioned. The phrase, 'the winners write the history books' is possibly never more aptly used than when WW2 is concerned.

 

 

Sorry I don't believe that, I'm sure the majority of Germans realized by then that Nazism was a failed ideology and were glad it was over. So they weren't forced by the Allies to criminalize symbols like the Swastika, they wanted to do this as they wanted to start focusing on the future and didn't want certain reminders 

 

 

How about you actually go and read some history books. This isn't a matter of believing or not believing, this isn't a question of spirituality or faith, it's a matter or what happened or didn't. A great deal of this particular subject is written in numerous books, transcripts, interviews, etc.

 

I realize your world view might be shaken, hence you ignore so much of what is in this world, past and present. Better to hold on to your mythology, than to objectively delve into the archives of what's what, or think past a superficial level. You suffer confirmation bias on a level I've rarely encountered in this world. So much so that even I have wondered if you're nothing more than a troll as others here have asserted. Objectivity is seemingly anathema to you in regards to so much you ever discuss.

 

The truth is, that in post WW2 Germany you would be hard pressed to find a group of random Germans where the majority of them thought that Nazism was their #1 problem rather than the folks who were occupying their nation, bombed and killed ~8-10% of the population, and had started a war with them. This simple fact really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone with even the tiniest understanding of human nature, or even contentious. It makes oodles and oodles of sense if one thinks about it. But even today, a very large number of Germans (in particular those middle aged or older who either lived through it or got stories first hand from their parents as to what happened), would not agree with the idea that Nazis were their main problem. And even of those who thought Nazis were a problem, most people aren't stupid enough to think that banning a symbol or discussion of certain topics is the way to solve that problem or anything at all to do with any kind of freedom.

 

As for Nazism being a failed ideology. Well... there's a lot to that ideology, as there is to nearly any political movement's ideology, and quite a lot of it is alive and well in the modern western world. Heck, almost all of it, both the good and bad parts. But I'd wager quite a lot that if you had a gun to your head you couldn't even say what much of that political ideology even entails, hence you thinking it's failed. Nevermind the fact that it didn't fail any more than the political ideology of any nation that's ever lost a war. War ended Nazism, the compete defeat of Germany by the Allied powers ended Nazism because those powers wanted it dead. Nazism didn't fail on it's own. In fact, prior to that war, it was doing amazingly well by most standards.

 

You have a way of making your posts interesting, I generally always read them to the end 

 

But I can't agree or disagree with what you are saying because I don't know enough about the  topic. WW2 have never been my strong point ( and I'll be honest I don't feel like researching it today ) so its probably best to wait for others who are versed in WW2 history to comment before we can confirm your posts accuracy 

[Valsuelm]

 

 

 

 

 

 

They were dealing with a form of fascism that had really and utterly devastated there society, they weren't thinking of the future and how disillusioned members of the German society may regress back into it. They wanted to completely distance themselves from it and the NAZI swastika represented  everything that was corrupted and dysfunctional from there society and history. They were right to ban it , sometimes you need to take perceived heavy steps to address issues 

 

 

The Germans generally were thinking no such thing. The Allied powers pretty much forced all of this at gun point, with the US and UK holding the most guns. The Germans had little voice in the matter.

 

Banning a symbol, banning discussion of certain topics, etc is downright evil.

 

One should question why this was done. It wasn't done for the superficial reasons you're thinking Bruce. In very short, it was done to make sure the narrative given by the Allied powers was accepted and not questioned. The phrase, 'the winners write the history books' is possibly never more aptly used than when WW2 is concerned.

 

 

Sorry I don't believe that, I'm sure the majority of Germans realized by then that Nazism was a failed ideology and were glad it was over. So they weren't forced by the Allies to criminalize symbols like the Swastika, they wanted to do this as they wanted to start focusing on the future and didn't want certain reminders 

 

 

How about you actually go and read some history books. This isn't a matter of believing or not believing, this isn't a question of spirituality or faith, it's a matter or what happened or didn't. A great deal of this particular subject is written in numerous books, transcripts, interviews, etc.

 

I realize your world view might be shaken, hence you ignore so much of what is in this world, past and present. Better to hold on to your mythology, than to objectively delve into the archives of what's what, or think past a superficial level. You suffer confirmation bias on a level I've rarely encountered in this world. So much so that even I have wondered if you're nothing more than a troll as others here have asserted. Objectivity is seemingly anathema to you in regards to so much you ever discuss.

 

The truth is, that in post WW2 Germany you would be hard pressed to find a group of random Germans where the majority of them thought that Nazism was their #1 problem rather than the folks who were occupying their nation, bombed and killed ~8-10% of the population, and had started a war with them. This simple fact really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone with even the tiniest understanding of human nature, or even contentious. It makes oodles and oodles of sense if one thinks about it. But even today, a very large number of Germans (in particular those middle aged or older who either lived through it or got stories first hand from their parents as to what happened), would not agree with the idea that Nazis were their main problem. And even of those who thought Nazis were a problem, most people aren't stupid enough to think that banning a symbol or discussion of certain topics is the way to solve that problem or anything at all to do with any kind of freedom.

 

As for Nazism being a failed ideology. Well... there's a lot to that ideology, as there is to nearly any political movement's ideology, and quite a lot of it is alive and well in the modern western world. Heck, almost all of it, both the good and bad parts. But I'd wager quite a lot that if you had a gun to your head you couldn't even say what much of that political ideology even entails, hence you thinking it's failed. Nevermind the fact that it didn't fail any more than the political ideology of any nation that's ever lost a war. War ended Nazism, the compete defeat of Germany by the Allied powers ended Nazism because those powers wanted it dead. Nazism didn't fail on it's own. In fact, prior to that war, it was doing amazingly well by most standards.

 

You have a way of making your posts interesting, I generally always read them to the end 

 

But I can't agree or disagree with what you are saying because I don't know enough about the  topic. WW2 have never been my strong point ( and I'll be honest I don't feel like researching it today ) so its probably best to wait for others who are versed in WW2 history to comment before we can confirm your posts accuracy 

 

 

There are a few major topics out there that one needs to bother to learn about in depth if one is to understand the hows, whats, and whys of this world we live in. World War 1, World War 2, what lead up to both, and what immediately followed both are among those topics.

 

You would do well to spend a good deal of time learning about all of these topics at some point, rather than rely on what anyone, myself included, in this forum says. There is absolutely no way any person with a good amount of knowledge of these subjects could impart all of the pertinent knowledge to you in this forum. There is also very little way for you to know who knows what they are talking (both on and off this forum) about on any given subject without doing some research on your own.

Edited March 14, 2015 by Valsuelm

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

They were dealing with a form of fascism that had really and utterly devastated there society, they weren't thinking of the future and how disillusioned members of the German society may regress back into it. They wanted to completely distance themselves from it and the NAZI swastika represented  everything that was corrupted and dysfunctional from there society and history. They were right to ban it , sometimes you need to take perceived heavy steps to address issues 

 

 

The Germans generally were thinking no such thing. The Allied powers pretty much forced all of this at gun point, with the US and UK holding the most guns. The Germans had little voice in the matter.

 

Banning a symbol, banning discussion of certain topics, etc is downright evil.

 

One should question why this was done. It wasn't done for the superficial reasons you're thinking Bruce. In very short, it was done to make sure the narrative given by the Allied powers was accepted and not questioned. The phrase, 'the winners write the history books' is possibly never more aptly used than when WW2 is concerned.

 

 

Sorry I don't believe that, I'm sure the majority of Germans realized by then that Nazism was a failed ideology and were glad it was over. So they weren't forced by the Allies to criminalize symbols like the Swastika, they wanted to do this as they wanted to start focusing on the future and didn't want certain reminders 

 

 

How about you actually go and read some history books. This isn't a matter of believing or not believing, this isn't a question of spirituality or faith, it's a matter or what happened or didn't. A great deal of this particular subject is written in numerous books, transcripts, interviews, etc.

 

I realize your world view might be shaken, hence you ignore so much of what is in this world, past and present. Better to hold on to your mythology, than to objectively delve into the archives of what's what, or think past a superficial level. You suffer confirmation bias on a level I've rarely encountered in this world. So much so that even I have wondered if you're nothing more than a troll as others here have asserted. Objectivity is seemingly anathema to you in regards to so much you ever discuss.

 

The truth is, that in post WW2 Germany you would be hard pressed to find a group of random Germans where the majority of them thought that Nazism was their #1 problem rather than the folks who were occupying their nation, bombed and killed ~8-10% of the population, and had started a war with them. This simple fact really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone with even the tiniest understanding of human nature, or even contentious. It makes oodles and oodles of sense if one thinks about it. But even today, a very large number of Germans (in particular those middle aged or older who either lived through it or got stories first hand from their parents as to what happened), would not agree with the idea that Nazis were their main problem. And even of those who thought Nazis were a problem, most people aren't stupid enough to think that banning a symbol or discussion of certain topics is the way to solve that problem or anything at all to do with any kind of freedom.

 

As for Nazism being a failed ideology. Well... there's a lot to that ideology, as there is to nearly any political movement's ideology, and quite a lot of it is alive and well in the modern western world. Heck, almost all of it, both the good and bad parts. But I'd wager quite a lot that if you had a gun to your head you couldn't even say what much of that political ideology even entails, hence you thinking it's failed. Nevermind the fact that it didn't fail any more than the political ideology of any nation that's ever lost a war. War ended Nazism, the compete defeat of Germany by the Allied powers ended Nazism because those powers wanted it dead. Nazism didn't fail on it's own. In fact, prior to that war, it was doing amazingly well by most standards.

 

You have a way of making your posts interesting, I generally always read them to the end 

 

But I can't agree or disagree with what you are saying because I don't know enough about the  topic. WW2 have never been my strong point ( and I'll be honest I don't feel like researching it today ) so its probably best to wait for others who are versed in WW2 history to comment before we can confirm your posts accuracy 

 

 

There are a few major topics out there that one needs to bother to learn about in depth if one is to understand the hows, whats, and whys of this world we live in. World War 1, World War 2, what lead up to both, and what immediately followed both are among those topics.

 

You would do well to spend a good deal of time learning about all of these topics at some point, rather than rely on what anyone, myself included, in this forum says. There is absolutely no way any person with a good amount of knowledge of these subjects could impart all of the pertinent knowledge to you in this forum. There is also very little way for you to know who knows what they are talking (both on and off this forum) about on any given subject without doing some research on your own.

 

Oh don't worry WW1 is one of my strong points 

[BruceVC]

 

But I can't agree or disagree with what you are saying because I don't know enough about the  topic. WW2 have never been my strong point ( and I'll be honest I don't feel like researching it today ) so its probably best to wait for others who are versed in WW2 history to comment before we can confirm your posts accuracy

Well, I can confirm Valsuelm statement to be true.

 

But I need to congratulate you and encourage you to make career in politics. Dismissing your opponents argument based on your own ignorance is the most ballsy move I ever seen in a discussion.

 

 

Well I am active in several radio talk shows and the topics are generally about politics

 

Just to be clear do you know what we are debating Sharp_one ?

 

I am saying at the end of WW2 the majority of the German people were happy to put Nazism in the past, they saw it as negative thing and not something they wanted to repeat, hence the banning of the Swastika

 

Vals is saying the Germans only renounced Nazism because the Allies told them to 

[Meshugger]

BruceVC: You're morally obliged to read "The rise and fall of the Third Reich" by William L. Shirer. It is the most comprehensive book that i know that follows the German politics in post WWI to the very end with Nuremburg-trials. It also dwelves into the policies of the axis and the allies. 

[213374U]

Nevermind the fact that it didn't fail any more than the political ideology of any nation that's ever lost a war. War ended Nazism, the compete defeat of Germany by the Allied powers ended Nazism because those powers wanted it dead. Nazism didn't fail on it's own. In fact, prior to that war, it was doing amazingly well by most standards.

That's a fair bit of revisionism you're indulging in. Aggressive expansionism was an integral part of Nazism as outlined in Mein Kampf. It was this expansionism that landed Germany in a war it couldn't possibly win. In this sense, Nazism was, as a guiding ideology for post-WWI Germany, self-defeating, because ideologies don't exist in a vacuum — if they fail to incorporate the circumstances and particularities in their scope of application, they are useless generalities at best, and a recipe for disaster at worst. This idea is well illustrated by the different configurations of "socialism" resulting from trying to apply Marxist principles in wildly different situations.

 

As for doing well, I'm genuinely interested to know what measuring standards are you are basing your conclusions on. From what I've read, the only macroeconomic indicator that improved between 1933 and 1939 was unemployment, which was drastically reduced as a result of the massive public works and rearmament programs. On the other hand, living standards for just about everyone in Germany worsened, with real wages declining (an oft-cited figure is a 25% decrease, but I can't find the original source for the claim) and a negative trade balance, which is bad news for an industrial economy. At the same time, you have the removal of collective bargaining as a result of independent unions being disbanded and strikes being verboten, rationing, army conscription, etc. In short, a plethora of generally unpleasant stuff needed to sustain Hitler's massive re-militarization aims. As an upside, it's suggested that German industry vastly expanded in the interwar years, but that seems to be under scrutiny as well.

 

That's the "accepted" narrative, anyway. What are you basing your disagreement with it on?

[HoonDing]

Where's my popcorn.

[Zoraptor]

I rather suspect the German people generally didn't care much about politics at the end of WW2 as they had bigger things on their minds, and were far more glad that the war was over. In any case it would be difficult to prove their attitude as it would be unlikely they could freely express any lingering sympathy/ admiration for it under occupation even if they were given the opportunity of an opinion poll or similar. I cannot imagine there would be very much lingering sympathy for those who swore blind that Berlin would never be bombed and there would be 1000 years of glory after what that lead to in reality, the deaths of millions of germans and the levelling of much of the country in an incontrovertable and absolute defeat.

 

It does also bear remembering that Churchill got voted out of office despite winning the war. People were sick of war and wanted a change, and there was far less war weariness in Britain than Germany.

[BruceVC]

I rather suspect the German people generally didn't care much about politics at the end of WW2 as they had bigger things on their minds, and were far more glad that the war was over. In any case it would be difficult to prove their attitude as it would be unlikely they could freely express any lingering sympathy/ admiration for it under occupation even if they were given the opportunity of an opinion poll or similar. I cannot imagine there would be very much lingering sympathy for those who swore blind that Berlin would never be bombed and there would be 1000 years of glory after what that lead to in reality, the deaths of millions of germans and the levelling of much of the country in an incontrovertable and absolute defeat.

 

It does also bear remembering that Churchill got voted out of office despite winning the war. People were sick of war and wanted a change, and there was far less war weariness in Britain than Germany.

 

This is a very insightful post, well done Zora

 

Apart from the fact that there aren't accurate records or any books written, as far as I know, on  the subject " German view of Nazism post WW2" it should seem preposterous to suggest  that the  majority of  German people would still see Nazism as something relevant or helpful. They just wanted to rebuild there country free from the shadow of it 

 

So maybe they made a few possibly drastic decisions, like banning the Swastika, but who are we really to judge considering there mindset and what they had just been through?

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

Germany made a huge mistake in making Nazi symbolism illegal. That's right, you can't actually show a swastika in Germany without special permission. They should have marginalized and ridiculed them instead. Imagine the cool factor you can have simply by virtue of being officially forbidden.

 

I very much agree with this. Both disillusioned young people and young people who just want to look cool by rebelling will take any chance they get to appear anti-establishment, giving real neo-Nazis the perfect hook to get their claws into young people.

 

 

In all fairness though, this line of thought very strongly hinges on the assumption that people become neo-nazis in order to look cool, and not because their life is **** to the point where "looking cool" is the least of their worries, at which point the nazi rhetoric with its image of racial enemies who are responsible for making their life **** appeals to them.

 

I'm not sold.

Edited March 14, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Longknife]

 

 

we didn't read it.  so, let us know if you is denying that jews in Germany still suffer from bigotry and intolerance or if you is admitting such stuff exists but that you are blaming on muslims. either way we can rebut, so it don't genuine matter, but is no sense responding to both. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

 

I'm saying that Germany does not suffer from anti-semitism anymore than any random country does. To say "Jews in Germany still suffer from bigotry and intolerance" I find to be a misleading statement as it implies it's widespread, whereas in reality it's not. Such a statement would hold about the same accuracy as "Native Americans in Oklahoma still suffer from bigotry and intolerance." For the most part, no they do not, but to claim an absolute of "Bigotry and intolerance against X is gone" is all but impossible, hence why I said it's practically non-existent save for the loons you'd expect anywhere. You'll always find haters of any group in any country. That's simply a sad truth that exists due to the sheer populations of modern countries.

   And while no, of course it's just as impossible to claim no Germans (or no French, or no Swedes, or no British...) hate Jews these days, I would definitely state that the amount of muslims within Germany who hate Jews clearly outnumber the random German fringe dudes who hate Jews. Makes sense, no? We have an education system that tries very hard to strain why something like WWII should never occur again, and anyone can go visit Auschwitz themselves to see it firsthand (which I'm told is an absolutely depressing experience that really drives that message home), the muslim immigrants come directly from countries in conflict with Israel in some way, shape or form. They've got the motivation, the Germans do not. But again, the French don't really either, nor do the Greeks, nor do the Spanish, but I'm sure you'd find anti-semites everywhere. Germany however is by no means an anomaly with a higher quota of anti-semitism. If you want an anomaly, look to Russia.

 

 

Most German's I've met have been pretty miserable and humorless fellows. That your experience too Longknife? And is it because they killed all the funny people?

 

 

It's very hard to explain German culture, I'd say. On one hand they can be distant. Not neccesarily cold, but distant, wanting nothing to do with you but meaning no harm by it. On the other hand, this is a culture in love with dramatic rock ballads and films like Dances with Wolves who will silently watch it alone and cry when no one's looking.

 

  I think the best way to explain German culture is to explain a style of upbringing far more common in Germany, namely "do it exactly as I showed you or it's wrong and not good enough." The example I always refer to is that I had a roommate from Colombia and both of us moved in together at like age 18 and 19, me being 18. We didn't know jack of course, so we'd do things like wash the dishes for the first time (having had a dishwasher before or relying on momma) and we'd ask each other if our method of washing dishes was good enough and if the dishes looked clean. Yknow, we didn't know so we'd ask each other just to make sure we weren't doing something dumb. He did it his way, I did it mine, but we both agreed that both methods got the dishes clean so we left it at that. Then later his German girlfriend moved in with us and I'll never forget the way she always worded things: "Here, let me teach you how to do it."

 

  It's the type of tone of a teacher to a student or a parent to a child. This is typically the tone you'd expect when learning anything....but that's just it. There was nothing wrong with our method, it's just her method was SOOOOOOOOOOO freaking hammered into her skull that she was under the belief that her way was the correct way and all other ways are wrong and inferior, and that it's super super important to teach everyone else how to be more perfect like her.

 

  Now add onto that Germany's preference to be bluntly honest rather than sugarcoat things, and you can imagine what happens: the German population begins to decline because Germans are too busy arguing with each other about who's more correct in their lifestyle, then they forget to make babies like all the other countries do.

 

 

 

  Here's another great example for you: I recently met a girl who is very active....ridiculously active. I posted in another thread about it where she said she prefers dating Germans because we're "such a productive people" and I silently groaned to myself about how boring I thought that answer was. Yeah man, when I date people, number one thing I'm concerned about is how good their work ethic is! So she recently asked me to help her come up with a birthday present for her roommate. She went on to explain she doesn't like it that he spends a lot of time in his room and doesn't get out a whole lot to be active and do sports, so she wanted a gift to change that. Get what I'm saying here? That's Germany in a nutshell. The gift isn't about something nice that you would appreciate, it's about them showing you the light and what's the proper way to live. It's a very judgemental and even snobby mentality, though I know they don't mean it that way. They mean well, but quite frankly it comes across as unbelievably rude at times and very....bold? Brash? You get the point.

 

  This same girl, I daresay I don't know jack about her. Why? Because any time I just wanna....yknow, chat like a normal human being, she HAS to do something. There is no sitting down, there is no pause button, there is no excuse to relax. No, we must go go go all the time. The result is that you're never actually truly socializing in that any small talk going on is related to the chess game you're having, the workout you're doing or the instruments you're playing. I actually stayed with a family just like this in Munich, and I remember distinctly leaving that house without feeling like I knew jack about those people, cause the moment I wanted to chat, the answer was "sure! What should we do?" It felt very empty and fake, and to make matters worse? That family was a family of four, though the son was basically an outcast of the family and no longer lived with them. His crime that led to him being the outcast? The doctor father and anthropologist mother were very disappointed to learn that their software developer son found his hobby to be the computer and not something like rock climbing or hiking. It was like wtf are you serious? You're disappointed in your son for not being active ENOUGH to meet your standards? I'm sorry but this is inhumane. This is insane. They were still on speaking terms with him so it wasn't like they never wanted to hear from him again or something, they just expressed disappointment in him, and lo and behold when I met him, his social skills seemed to surpass theirs cause he could, yknow, calm the hell down?

 

  The examples in the above paragraph are absolute extremes and by no means do they reflect German culture as a whole, but it is an existing subculture that I've encountered off and on. Overall my point with naming it is that I believe Germany's issue is too much control. Germans are very very strict with their belief in how things should be, and the result is that they butt heads with others all the more often. I think this then leads to them as a culture being a bit more melancholy and distant, because for them they must quickly realize they will not convince the world to live exactly as they do. The result is they keep their distance and only talk to a few, sitting back and referring to other people as idiots and such who just dunno how to do things right.

   The lack of humor, I'd imagine, comes from the fact that they're so strict alongside that they probably feel like they'd rather keep their distance due to difficulty seeing eye-to-eye with others 100% (yeah good luck). Don't get me wrong, Germans do have humor. Their humor is actually pretty good. But I know exactly what you mean, and what you mean is that it isn't apparent from an outsider's perspective at all. Really kind of difficult to explain why and how that happens... All I can say is that Germans are more-often serious (though by no means all of them, or even the majority), strict and there's a distance to them.

 

Overall the lesson I'd say to learn from German culture is that a little tolerance goes a long way. No, not tolerance like omg Germans are racist and hate jews. I mean more in the sense that yes Germany, constructive criticism and brutal honest are very nice things indeed, but perhaps we should chill out if the subject matter is nothing but how the dishes get washed so long as they end up clean, or what somebody's diet is. Cause really, are such things worth the conflict? Hell no wtf of course not. This does not however mean that these people are heartless - far from it. No, they've just been raised in such a setting where things HAVE to be done a certain way or omgwtfbbq the sun won't rise tomorrow or something, hell if I know. Chill out, Germany.

 

 

I rather suspect the German people generally didn't care much about politics at the end of WW2 as they had bigger things on their minds, and were far more glad that the war was over. In any case it would be difficult to prove their attitude as it would be unlikely they could freely express any lingering sympathy/ admiration for it under occupation even if they were given the opportunity of an opinion poll or similar. I cannot imagine there would be very much lingering sympathy for those who swore blind that Berlin would never be bombed and there would be 1000 years of glory after what that lead to in reality, the deaths of millions of germans and the levelling of much of the country in an incontrovertable and absolute defeat.

 

It does also bear remembering that Churchill got voted out of office despite winning the war. People were sick of war and wanted a change, and there was far less war weariness in Britain than Germany.

 

 

Just to put things in perspective, my town I live in was practically rebuilt from the ground up. It was an important trade route so it got the crap bombed out of it. To this day, construction workers still occassionally dig up an old WWII bomb and the area gets evacuated for a bit while they call in the bomb defusers. I've been evacuated from my apartment maybe thrice since I moved here. Didn't really know my grandparents, but I did see their photo albums once. I'm not exaggerating when I say most of the town was rebuilt from the ground up. There was absolutely nothing, and there's two buildings in particular that are considered "fancy" simply because they actually survived, and therefore they're like the only non-modern buildings in the downtown area.

 

  So yeah, depending on where someone lived, they might not give a crap about politics after the war. My town got hit especially hard though so keep that in mind. I'm sure Celle (buncha hippies who don't care who rules the joint so anytime an army rolls through they just say "yeah sure whatever you're in charge now," so the town has tons of old in tact buildings from the 1400s or so to show for it) on the other hand had room to breathe and discuss politics.

[Gromnir]

 

 

 

we didn't read it.  so, let us know if you is denying that jews in Germany still suffer from bigotry and intolerance or if you is admitting such stuff exists but that you are blaming on muslims. either way we can rebut, so it don't genuine matter, but is no sense responding to both. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

 

I'm saying that Germany does not suffer from anti-semitism anymore than any random country does. 

 

which is a far, FAR different thing than suggesting that intolerance o' jews is "absolutely dead" in germany. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Longknife]

 

 

 

 

we didn't read it.  so, let us know if you is denying that jews in Germany still suffer from bigotry and intolerance or if you is admitting such stuff exists but that you are blaming on muslims. either way we can rebut, so it don't genuine matter, but is no sense responding to both. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

 

I'm saying that Germany does not suffer from anti-semitism anymore than any random country does. 

 

which is a far, FAR different thing than suggesting that intolerance o' jews is "absolutely dead" in germany. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

 

Which I never stated. If you wanna take it out of context I did, but there's no purpose in that, is there? I clarified that of course you'll find random loons anywhere. I meant that for the issue to be "alive" then it would need to be abnormal and above average. It's not though.

 

I thought that would be the logical conclusion given that acknowledging some degree of anti-semitism contradicts the absolute tone of my other sentence...? You were the one who took it absolutely literally despite the clarification given.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Longknife

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Reading that about Germany made me need a drink.

[Gromnir]

 

 

 

 

 

we didn't read it.  so, let us know if you is denying that jews in Germany still suffer from bigotry and intolerance or if you is admitting such stuff exists but that you are blaming on muslims. either way we can rebut, so it don't genuine matter, but is no sense responding to both. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

 

I'm saying that Germany does not suffer from anti-semitism anymore than any random country does. 

 

which is a far, FAR different thing than suggesting that intolerance o' jews is "absolutely dead" in germany. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

 

Which I never stated. If you wanna take it out of context I did, but there's no purpose in that, is there? I clarified that of course you'll find random loons anywhere. I meant that for the issue to be "alive" then it would need to be abnormal and above average. It's not though.

 

I thought that would be the logical conclusion given that acknowledging some degree of anti-semitism contradicts the absolute tone of my other sentence...? You were the one who took it absolutely literally despite the clarification given.

 

its quoted for a reason.  

 

"The days of racism against Jews in Germany are absolutely dead."

 

only the incredible rare "loon" is involved in such stuff in germany, yes? 

 

no.

 

HA! Good Fun!