Journalism and bias in the gaming industry.

[Amentep]

 

 

There was quite the outrage over that scene at the time it came out.

 

Do you know who the characters are?

 

Invincible and an alien whose name I can't recall. She raped him because she needed to reproduce and didn't want to have sex with a human.

 

 

Yeah I don't know the alien either. I remembered it was from Invincible.

 

People weren't that happy with **** Grayson getting raped in his title a decade back either.

 

Reposting

 

 

Why does a cover showcasing the brutal beating and murder of a teenage boy not generate the same outrage?

Because murder and rape aren't the same crimes? Because the book that was on (I'm assuming its a cover because I can't find the book it was the cover to) wasn't just relaunched as a light, fun book?

[Hurlshort]

 

 

Everyone cheered and their cheers filled the sky:

"Fight! Fight for the Butter Side Up! Do or die!" 

[Malcador]

Drawn to the thread, huh?

[Longknife]

https://youtu.be/YOyNlJ5uetk?t=10m27s

 

 

So apparently bribe money can be quite high, if Vinny is to be believed. (and I don't see why not. Absolutely doesn't seem like the lying type)

[Meshugger]

https://youtu.be/YOyNlJ5uetk?t=10m27s

 

 

So apparently bribe money can be quite high, if Vinny is to be believed. (and I don't see why not. Absolutely doesn't seem like the lying type)

 

Never heard of the guy. If nobodies are offered close to five figures, i wonder how it is for the really big ones?

[Hurlshort]

Drawn to the thread, huh?

 

Sorry officer, I'll try to stay on my appointed side of the wall.

 

[Longknife]

 

https://youtu.be/YOyNlJ5uetk?t=10m27s

 

 

So apparently bribe money can be quite high, if Vinny is to be believed. (and I don't see why not. Absolutely doesn't seem like the lying type)

 

Never heard of the guy. If nobodies are offered close to five figures, i wonder how it is for the really big ones?

 

 

 

How have you never heard of Vinny?

 

He's not exactly a nobody. I'd say he's probably one of the first names to come to mind when someone mentions twitch streamers rather than standard Youtubers. His youtube channel still has 250,000 subscribers and he's got plenty of popular highly viewed vids (such as this one: https://youtu.be/SB9Cpjd7PxI?t=1s ), and he's got a newer channel a guy helped set him up with where all his twitch streams get uploaded to. Still, he's not exactly PewDiePie or the like, so yeah he's still modest in size. It looks like a pretty low-budget game too (though to be fair it also looks like a microtransaction cash grab so maybe they put more effort in their marketing than their game), so it's kinda like wtf.

 

 

 

Another completely seperate example, recently Blizzard flew out some famous TF2 youtubers so they could play Overwatch and promote it. It doesn't seem they were paid to give positive coverage as two of the four had criticisms to voice alongside their praise, I merely mention it to put in perspective how much companies seem to be willing to pay for coverage. Star, Jerma, B4nny and Muselk all got flown to Los Angeles. To my knowledge Star and Jerma live around New York or Boston, I don't know where B4nny lives and Muselk lives in flippin' Australia.

 

  I really don't quite understand it cause I mean wtf this is thousands of dollars here. Then again, $8,000 (for example) means that in order to make their money back, the promotion needs to get at least 160 copies of a $50 game. When we're talking about Youtubers like Vinny or Star or Muselk who can easily get 250,000 views on a video, then the odds are pretty damned good at least 180 of those viewers will make a purchase.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Longknife

[Hurlshort]

That sounds like pretty standard advertising. I doubt you will find many trade journalist, particularly independent ones without a large publication, paying out of pocket to review products.

[Longknife]

That sounds like pretty standard advertising. I doubt you will find many trade journalist, particularly independent ones without a large publication, paying out of pocket to review products.

 

 

Yeah, I think it's more that I never really sat down and realized just how much these people are offered. And for clarity, I wasn't saying I would be surprised to hear games journalists getting flights and hotels paid, I merely named the TF2 guys because that was completely Blizzard's initiative with TF2 celebrities; they're not reviewers or anything, they're celebrities for a market they wish to overtake.

 

 

  I'd just not realized how easy it would be for these gaming companies to offer these people thousands of dollars for positive coverage. If we assume video games journalism is a minimum wage kind of job (pretty sure it is, or close to it), then ONE accepted bribe can be a huge addition to your annual income.

 

Just puts things into perspective as to how this happened and why some of them are willing to fight tooth and nail.

[Volourn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cSrX2FJ-Q8#t=1029

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Because murder and rape aren't the same crimes?

True, but child murder(I'm counting Jason Todd as a child because he was a teenager) is also a fairly abhorrent crime by most moral and legal standards. Furthermore, Batgirl being sexually assaulted by the Joker is at best implied(IIRC Alan Moore said somewhere it wasn't his intention to do that in TKJ and most people I talk to about comics didn't really take it that way) while Jason Todd being brutally beaten and murdered was explicitly stated and shown.

 

Because the book that was on (I'm assuming its a cover because I can't find the book it was the cover to) wasn't just relaunched as a light, fun book?

Yes, but variant covers don't always match the contents of the comic. By this logic, wouldn't the Skoottie Young baby variants or the selfie variants DC did a while back also draw criticism for not matching the tone of the book?

[Oerwinde]

Because the book that was on (I'm assuming its a cover because I can't find the book it was the cover to) wasn't just relaunched as a light, fun book?

Yes, but variant covers don't always match the contents of the comic. By this logic, wouldn't the Skoottie Young baby variants or the selfie variants DC did a while back also draw criticism for not matching the tone of the book?

 

 

For example, this is the Superman variant for Joker month:

 

Supes even has the trunks in that one. Hardly representative of the book.

[kirottu]

 
Or maybe you should just play some games so you would actually know what you're talking about.
Link to the whole article.

Edited March 19, 2015 by kirottu

[Meshugger]

 

Or maybe you should just be some games so you would actually know what you're talking about.

Link to the whole article.

 

Look at her and laugh. There you have an imbecille with an opinion of a fool talking about things she cannot comprehend.

[Namutree]

 

 

Or maybe you should just be some games so you would actually know what you're talking about.

Link to the whole article.

 

Look at her and laugh. There you have an imbecille with an opinion of a fool talking about things she cannot comprehend.

 

I think I've heard of Samus.

 

Actually, I know all these characters.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Or maybe you should just be some games so you would actually know what you're talking about.

Link to the whole article.

 

Look at her and laugh. There you have an imbecille with an opinion of a fool talking about things she cannot comprehend.

 

 

I read this link and I'm interested in what isn't understood by the journalist

 

Nintendo's idea of confident and diverse female characters are pink bizarre looking " mutants " 

 

But what concerns me even more is that clip from Bayonetta, I haven't played the game but please tell me she doesn't open her legs like that when she is  generating some kind of ability...please tell that video clip is not accurate 

 

So what is the basic issue with that article...I am missing the problem?

Edited March 19, 2015 by BruceVC

[Meshugger]

 

 

 

Or maybe you should just be some games so you would actually know what you're talking about.

Link to the whole article.

 

Look at her and laugh. There you have an imbecille with an opinion of a fool talking about things she cannot comprehend.

 

 

I read this link and I'm interested in what isn't understood by the journalist

 

Nintendo's idea of confident and diverse female characters are pink bizarre looking " mutants " 

 

But what concerns me even more is that clip from Bayonetta, I haven't played the game but please tell me she doesn't open her legs like that when she is  generating some kind of ability...please tell that video clip is not accurate 

 

So what is the basic issue with that article...I am missing the problem?

 

 

Bruce, you might not realize this, but the clip is real.....SHE IS NOT.

[Namutree]

Tetra did help link fight Ganondorf in Windwaker. She's perfectly strong; she just really should have stayed in the castle since only the wielder of "The Master Sword" can defeat Ganon.

 

Samus is a badass; I mean, just check out this cool picture of her:

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

Or maybe you should just be some games so you would actually know what you're talking about.

Link to the whole article.

 

Look at her and laugh. There you have an imbecille with an opinion of a fool talking about things she cannot comprehend.

 

 

I read this link and I'm interested in what isn't understood by the journalist

 

Nintendo's idea of confident and diverse female characters are pink bizarre looking " mutants " 

 

But what concerns me even more is that clip from Bayonetta, I haven't played the game but please tell me she doesn't open her legs like that when she is  generating some kind of ability...please tell that video clip is not accurate 

 

So what is the basic issue with that article...I am missing the problem?

 

 

Bruce, you might not realize this, but the clip is real.....SHE IS NOT.

 

 

Okay but I would still like clarification on Bayonette before I make my point, during the game that animation you see is that real? Is that how the female character behaves?

 

And if so what is she doing? Is it some kind of absorbing of abilities or does that happen when she defeats an enemy 

[Blarghagh]

 

That sounds like pretty standard advertising. I doubt you will find many trade journalist, particularly independent ones without a large publication, paying out of pocket to review products.

 

 

Yeah, I think it's more that I never really sat down and realized just how much these people are offered. And for clarity, I wasn't saying I would be surprised to hear games journalists getting flights and hotels paid, I merely named the TF2 guys because that was completely Blizzard's initiative with TF2 celebrities; they're not reviewers or anything, they're celebrities for a market they wish to overtake.

 

 

  I'd just not realized how easy it would be for these gaming companies to offer these people thousands of dollars for positive coverage. If we assume video games journalism is a minimum wage kind of job (pretty sure it is, or close to it), then ONE accepted bribe can be a huge addition to your annual income.

 

Just puts things into perspective as to how this happened and why some of them are willing to fight tooth and nail.

 

 

I'd like to point out that YouTube and Twitch celebrities are not analogous to gaming journalists in any way, shape or form. Currently, even midlevel YouTube channels (say, the Worth-a-Buy review channel) are worth more in terms of exposure and sales than positive reviews are across the board. You're unlikely to see journalists get bribes that high since they are, simply put, not worth as much money.

 

EDIT:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Or maybe you should just be some games so you would actually know what you're talking about.

Link to the whole article.

 

Look at her and laugh. There you have an imbecille with an opinion of a fool talking about things she cannot comprehend.

 

 

I read this link and I'm interested in what isn't understood by the journalist

 

Nintendo's idea of confident and diverse female characters are pink bizarre looking " mutants " 

 

But what concerns me even more is that clip from Bayonetta, I haven't played the game but please tell me she doesn't open her legs like that when she is  generating some kind of ability...please tell that video clip is not accurate 

 

So what is the basic issue with that article...I am missing the problem?

 

 

Bruce, you might not realize this, but the clip is real.....SHE IS NOT.

 

 

Okay but I would still like clarification on Bayonette before I make my point, during the game that animation you see is that real? Is that how the female character behaves?

 

And if so what is she doing? Is it some kind of absorbing of abilities or does that happen when she defeats an enemy 

 

 

That animation is cut short and taken severely out of context. When completed, it's a visual metaphor for giving birth and the inherent power of being able to create life. I've mentioned before that Bayonetta is, at its very core, a story of female empowerment and this constant marring of it by American puritans is ridiculous. As for the "pink blobs", those are not Nintendo's strong, female characters at all. They're at best throwaway skins. Nintendo has plenty of strong female characters and is decades ahead of western game developers. The freaking Mario franchise has a gender dysphoric character for crying out loud, making them a hundred times more progressive by default than a significant portion of the feminist community (who are notorious for being homo and transphobic regarding gay men and transgendered women).

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_views_on_transgenderism_and_transsexualism#Feminist_exclusion_of_transgender_and_transsexual_people

 

You know, when I first joined this board I once expressed that I didn't think women breastfeeding in public was appropriate. I was wrong, obviously, and members here (specifically metadigital, wherever he may be) ripped me a new one, and rightly so. Yet things like your consternation about this scene (because even if it wasn't a metaphor for birth, it still wouldn't be offensive) make me think that kind of unhealthy view of the female body, as something that must be covered up to avoid any form of titillation, that muslim Burka view of the female form, is making a huge comeback and oddly enough it's coming from the movement whose biggest victories include not being forced to cover up.

Edited March 19, 2015 by TrueNeutral

[Longknife]

 

 

That sounds like pretty standard advertising. I doubt you will find many trade journalist, particularly independent ones without a large publication, paying out of pocket to review products.

 

 

Yeah, I think it's more that I never really sat down and realized just how much these people are offered. And for clarity, I wasn't saying I would be surprised to hear games journalists getting flights and hotels paid, I merely named the TF2 guys because that was completely Blizzard's initiative with TF2 celebrities; they're not reviewers or anything, they're celebrities for a market they wish to overtake.

 

 

  I'd just not realized how easy it would be for these gaming companies to offer these people thousands of dollars for positive coverage. If we assume video games journalism is a minimum wage kind of job (pretty sure it is, or close to it), then ONE accepted bribe can be a huge addition to your annual income.

 

Just puts things into perspective as to how this happened and why some of them are willing to fight tooth and nail.

 

 

I'd like to point out that YouTube and Twitch celebrities are not analogous to gaming journalists in any way, shape or form. Currently, even midlevel YouTube channels (say, the Worth-a-Buy review channel) are worth more in terms of exposure and sales than positive reviews are across the board. You're unlikely to see journalists get bribes that high since they are, simply put, not worth as much money.

 

 

 

What makes you say that?

 

Nowadays sure, absolutely. I think there's enough controversy surrounding games journalism that no game developer would think to bribe them over a youtube celebrity. Fast forward about a year ago though, do you think the same? I don't really have one opinion or another here since I don't exactly know what kind of readership sites like IGN and Kotaku would pull in, but a company interested in advertising would definitely look into that and find it out. If Vinny averages 200,000 to 500,000 views on a video and receives an $8,000 bribe, then presumably any games journalism website that could pull in 200,000 reads for an article could get the same, no?

 

Not neccesarily disagreeing with you, just wondering what your train of thought it. Part of this is me making sense of what led to all of this, so the past leading up to GamerGate, though yeah I think anyone would agree with you now that no one in their right mind is gonna bribe a games journalist for good press now.

[Amentep]

 

Because murder and rape aren't the same crimes?

True, but child murder(I'm counting Jason Todd as a child because he was a teenager) is also a fairly abhorrent crime by most moral and legal standards. Furthermore, Batgirl being sexually assaulted by the Joker is at best implied(IIRC Alan Moore said somewhere it wasn't his intention to do that in TKJ and most people I talk to about comics didn't really take it that way) while Jason Todd being brutally beaten and murdered was explicitly stated and shown.

 

Yeah, but IIRC Moore has said he can see why people read it that way and Brian Bolland has said he read the script that way and drew it that way.

 

 

Because the book that was on (I'm assuming its a cover because I can't find the book it was the cover to) wasn't just relaunched as a light, fun book?

Yes, but variant covers don't always match the contents of the comic. By this logic, wouldn't the Skoottie Young baby variants or the selfie variants DC did a while back also draw criticism for not matching the tone of the book?

 

Sure, they don't. They're also kind of irrelevant, so getting upset over one seems meaningless. This cover didn't fit the book. It wasn't approved by editorial on the book but by marketing. It was a meaningless variant cover that ultimately had no bearing on the book itself..

 

If we were talking about the real cover and changing the content of the book, then its a different scenario. This though? Its a tempest in a teapot, IMO.

[Blarghagh]

 

 

 

That sounds like pretty standard advertising. I doubt you will find many trade journalist, particularly independent ones without a large publication, paying out of pocket to review products.

 

 

Yeah, I think it's more that I never really sat down and realized just how much these people are offered. And for clarity, I wasn't saying I would be surprised to hear games journalists getting flights and hotels paid, I merely named the TF2 guys because that was completely Blizzard's initiative with TF2 celebrities; they're not reviewers or anything, they're celebrities for a market they wish to overtake.

 

 

  I'd just not realized how easy it would be for these gaming companies to offer these people thousands of dollars for positive coverage. If we assume video games journalism is a minimum wage kind of job (pretty sure it is, or close to it), then ONE accepted bribe can be a huge addition to your annual income.

 

Just puts things into perspective as to how this happened and why some of them are willing to fight tooth and nail.

 

 

I'd like to point out that YouTube and Twitch celebrities are not analogous to gaming journalists in any way, shape or form. Currently, even midlevel YouTube channels (say, the Worth-a-Buy review channel) are worth more in terms of exposure and sales than positive reviews are across the board. You're unlikely to see journalists get bribes that high since they are, simply put, not worth as much money.

 

 

 

What makes you say that?

 

Nowadays sure, absolutely. I think there's enough controversy surrounding games journalism that no game developer would think to bribe them over a youtube celebrity. Fast forward about a year ago though, do you think the same? I don't really have one opinion or another here since I don't exactly know what kind of readership sites like IGN and Kotaku would pull in, but a company interested in advertising would definitely look into that and find it out. If Vinny averages 200,000 to 500,000 views on a video and receives an $8,000 bribe, then presumably any games journalism website that could pull in 200,000 reads for an article could get the same, no?

 

Not neccesarily disagreeing with you, just wondering what your train of thought it. Part of this is me making sense of what led to all of this, so the past leading up to GamerGate, though yeah I think anyone would agree with you now that no one in their right mind is gonna bribe a games journalist for good press now.

 

 

Gaming websites don't actually get all that much traffic, mostly comparable with mid-level YouTubers at this point. GamerGate doesn't even come into it.

 

More in-depth would be, even if gaming websites got more traffic, they rarely lead to increased sales numbers whereas a high profile YouTuber playing your game most likely will. The game review scale has been broken for a long time and a 7-8 rating won't sway any minds because in practice a 7 or an 8 translates to mediocre - these days only a 10 will give a game increased attention whereas a 7 or lower might actually lose you sales. And let's be realistic here, the vast majority of people pretty much only look at the number. Review text gets skimmed at most.

 

YouTubers aren't reviewing a game. They're there to be entertaining, and they're having (or looking like they're having) fun. 200,000 views on a review who see that a gaming website has a thrown another 10 at a game or a 200,000 people seeing a dude have a great time playing that game. What's going to sway more minds?

 

Obviously, you have your outliers. TotalBiscuit does game "first impressions" that essentially work as reviews do, but the guy worked for a long time to get consumer trust and he's somewhat of an exception, most YouTubers are more about playing the game and having fun and entertaining their audience and that is a powerful force. Essentially, a review is perceived as a form of publicity while a YouTubers playing it is perceived as word of mouth.

 

This comes with its own set of ethical problems, obviously, but thankfully a lot of YouTubers have blown the whistle on brand deals and the like.

[Nonek]

Mr Bain's reveal of the shameful PR practises that one of the marketing team of Shadows of Mordor indulged in was really a very sterling example of ethical behaviour, and it has probably made a few of the more ethically relaxed PR firms take a second to think over their approaches to Youtubers and Twitchers. By Twitcher I mean those who stream on Twitch not the bird watcher or the fans of the Witcher from CDPR.

[BruceVC]

 

 

That sounds like pretty standard advertising. I doubt you will find many trade journalist, particularly independent ones without a large publication, paying out of pocket to review products.

 

 

Yeah, I think it's more that I never really sat down and realized just how much these people are offered. And for clarity, I wasn't saying I would be surprised to hear games journalists getting flights and hotels paid, I merely named the TF2 guys because that was completely Blizzard's initiative with TF2 celebrities; they're not reviewers or anything, they're celebrities for a market they wish to overtake.

 

 

  I'd just not realized how easy it would be for these gaming companies to offer these people thousands of dollars for positive coverage. If we assume video games journalism is a minimum wage kind of job (pretty sure it is, or close to it), then ONE accepted bribe can be a huge addition to your annual income.

 

Just puts things into perspective as to how this happened and why some of them are willing to fight tooth and nail.

 

 

I'd like to point out that YouTube and Twitch celebrities are not analogous to gaming journalists in any way, shape or form. Currently, even midlevel YouTube channels (say, the Worth-a-Buy review channel) are worth more in terms of exposure and sales than positive reviews are across the board. You're unlikely to see journalists get bribes that high since they are, simply put, not worth as much money.

 

EDIT:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Or maybe you should just be some games so you would actually know what you're talking about.

Link to the whole article.

 

Look at her and laugh. There you have an imbecille with an opinion of a fool talking about things she cannot comprehend.

 

 

I read this link and I'm interested in what isn't understood by the journalist

 

Nintendo's idea of confident and diverse female characters are pink bizarre looking " mutants " 

 

But what concerns me even more is that clip from Bayonetta, I haven't played the game but please tell me she doesn't open her legs like that when she is  generating some kind of ability...please tell that video clip is not accurate 

 

So what is the basic issue with that article...I am missing the problem?

 

 

Bruce, you might not realize this, but the clip is real.....SHE IS NOT.

 

 

Okay but I would still like clarification on Bayonette before I make my point, during the game that animation you see is that real? Is that how the female character behaves?

 

And if so what is she doing? Is it some kind of absorbing of abilities or does that happen when she defeats an enemy 

 

 

That animation is cut short and taken severely out of context. When completed, it's a visual metaphor for giving birth and the inherent power of being able to create life. I've mentioned before that Bayonetta is, at its very core, a story of female empowerment and this constant marring of it by American puritans is ridiculous. As for the "pink blobs", those are not Nintendo's strong, female characters at all. They're at best throwaway skins. Nintendo has plenty of strong female characters and is decades ahead of western game developers. The freaking Mario franchise has a gender dysphoric character for crying out loud, making them a hundred times more progressive by default than a significant portion of the feminist community (who are notorious for being homo and transphobic regarding gay men and transgendered women).

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_views_on_transgenderism_and_transsexualism#Feminist_exclusion_of_transgender_and_transsexual_people

 

You know, when I first joined this board I once expressed that I didn't think women breastfeeding in public was appropriate. I was wrong, obviously, and members here (specifically metadigital, wherever he may be) ripped me a new one, and rightly so. Yet things like your consternation about this scene (because even if it wasn't a metaphor for birth, it still wouldn't be offensive) make me think that kind of unhealthy view of the female body, as something that must be covered up to avoid any form of titillation, that muslim Burka view of the female form, is making a huge comeback and oddly enough it's coming from the movement whose biggest victories include not being forced to cover up.

 

Okay thanks for explaining, I would have been very surprised if that animation was as obviously offensive  as it appeared. I'm glad there is context involved