Journalism and bias in the gaming industry.

[Fighter]

You have asked a very important question...so the reality is for most guys its not..and it doesn't need to be. Sometimes you see guys who actually resent strippers but still go to those clubs...its  a bizarre situation

 

But for me I have simple rule, so you walk into a stripclub and the girls graviate towards you..thats there job. But they want a private dance where they make the most money and they push this which is understandable but I always refuse and buy them a drink and spend at least 30 minutes chatting to them...if there is no connection on some kind of level or they don't want to talk then its not worth IMO continuing with the engagement...but the talking is important 

 

So basically how you view people is entirely on you. Love them, hate them. It's not the strippers' responsibility to teach you about women. And likewise the makers of, I don't know, Dead or Alive are not your mom, they have no responsibility to teach anyone lessons about women. And they shouldn't be picked on for not doing so.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

You're making a rather large assumption there - not necessarily inaccurate per se, but broad enough for me to feel that a little uncomfortable with it even if at some level I think I agree with the gist of what you're saying.

 

However I think it fair to point out that not all game developers are men, so it is possible for a game to have strippers who weren't brought into existence by men.  

 

 

 

...It's not really an assumption when the industry standard seems to be "every female character needs to be sexualized". Usually actively pushed by (needless to say, male) producers and execs, even when it makes zero sense.

 

 

 

Also if a game is trying to mirror real life, and real life has strippers and the subject matter contextually makes sense to have strippers, verisimilitude, not male gaze, would indicate the need to include strippers. 

 

 

 

Fully agreed. Which is why there is no inherent moral condemnation of the subject matter on my part.

 

 

 

And while my anecdotal evidence is limited (and naturally because of anecdotal nature not necessarily representative), the women I knew who worked in exotic dancing didn't choose to do it because they enjoyed it, but because of the money they made. 

 

 

 

I'd lump "doesn't actively hate the job and thinks the money is way good enough" with "enjoys it". I mean, my point was more like "she's not a Victim of the Patriarchy Who Has To Be Rescued From The Awful, Awful Fate of Being a Stripper", but a person who made a choice knowing the benefits and the drawbacks of the job. 

 

 

 

So what if there is an agency or not. Either something is sexy or it is not. Agency in sexiness bears no meaning whether it is a painting, a moviereel, pixels or the real thing.

 

 

Agency is the difference between "sexy" and "objectifying".

[BruceVC]

I feel really out of reality, there must be something important I am missing

 

we got SJW guy who is going to strip clubs for good talks (yeah sure) preaching about how bad is having strippers in games

 

then we have guy who is saying that in game stripper is here for appeal of man who at same time point out that some women likes to look on other womens as well

 

and I have problems to understand written text? seems so, can someone explain it to me? (honestly, I am not native speaker (clearly))

 

I know you are being serious

 

It does sound confusing but its because we arent explaining the background and the background is very complicated....well it is on my side  

[Meshugger]

 

So what if there is an agency or not. Either something is sexy or it is not. Agency in sexiness bears no meaning whether it is a painting, a moviereel, pixels or the real thing.

 

 

Agency is the difference between "sexy" and "objectifying".

 

 

And "objectifying" in this context is not a shameful act?

[BruceVC]

 

You have asked a very important question...so the reality is for most guys its not..and it doesn't need to be. Sometimes you see guys who actually resent strippers but still go to those clubs...its  a bizarre situation

 

But for me I have simple rule, so you walk into a stripclub and the girls graviate towards you..thats there job. But they want a private dance where they make the most money and they push this which is understandable but I always refuse and buy them a drink and spend at least 30 minutes chatting to them...if there is no connection on some kind of level or they don't want to talk then its not worth IMO continuing with the engagement...but the talking is important 

 

So basically how you view people is entirely on you. Love them, hate them. It's not the strippers' responsibility to teach you about women. And likewise the makers of, I don't know, Dead or Alive are not your mom, they have no responsibility to teach anyone lessons about women. And they shouldn't be picked on for not doing so.

 

 

You guys are doing it again by asking  good questions  and once again I don't know how to respond

 

I need to think about this one 

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

And "objectifying" in this context is not a shameful act?

 

 

Shameful in the wider societal sense, or in a personal morality sense?

[Malcador]

...It's not really an assumption when the industry standard seems to be "every female character needs to be sexualized". Usually actively pushed by (needless to say, male) producers and execs, even when it makes zero sense.

 

Fully agreed. Which is why there is no inherent moral condemnation of the subject matter on my part.

 

Agency is the difference between "sexy" and "objectifying".

Second point isn't really holding well with the first and third. Isn't 'objectifying' a bad thing, as you lot always espouse ?

 

In any case, Bruce being okay with strippers in real life as he wants to creepily make friends with them or something and him being opposed to video game ones is just a little inconsistent on the face of it, but the ends from both are different to him. So I guess it is ok.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

What the **** is going on here?

 

Google may be switching to a fact based algorithm. Let's hope it kills Gawker.

 

http://techraptor.net/content/is-google-switching-to-a-fact-based-algorithm

[BruceVC]

 

...It's not really an assumption when the industry standard seems to be "every female character needs to be sexualized". Usually actively pushed by (needless to say, male) producers and execs, even when it makes zero sense.

 

Fully agreed. Which is why there is no inherent moral condemnation of the subject matter on my part.

 

Agency is the difference between "sexy" and "objectifying".

Second point isn't really holding well with the first and third. Isn't 'objectifying' a bad thing, as you lot always espouse ?

 

In any case, Bruce being okay with strippers in real life as he wants to creepily make friends with them or something and him being opposed to video game ones is just a little inconsistent on the face of it, but the ends from both are different to him. So I guess it is ok.

 

 

You guys must not misunderstand me, or course I go to strip clubs to see beautiful women dance but that doesn't mean I can't be genuinely friendly to them 

 

Also the music I like is only played at a certain number of clubs so you often meet the same people and loads of strippers like the same music so its not like I won't see them again outside the stripclub 

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

...It's not really an assumption when the industry standard seems to be "every female character needs to be sexualized". Usually actively pushed by (needless to say, male) producers and execs, even when it makes zero sense.

 

Fully agreed. Which is why there is no inherent moral condemnation of the subject matter on my part.

 

Agency is the difference between "sexy" and "objectifying".

Second point isn't really holding well with the first and third. Isn't 'objectifying' a bad thing, as you lot always espouse ?

 

 

Opinions vary. I find verisimilitude-breaking objectification vaguely tasteless, but have no personal problem with it where it makes sense. Anita Sarkeesian would obviously disagree with me. There is no unifying feminist hivemind.

[Amentep]

 

You're making a rather large assumption there - not necessarily inaccurate per se, but broad enough for me to feel that a little uncomfortable with it even if at some level I think I agree with the gist of what you're saying.

 

However I think it fair to point out that not all game developers are men, so it is possible for a game to have strippers who weren't brought into existence by men.

 

 

...It's not really an assumption when the industry standard seems to be "every female character needs to be sexualized". Usually actively pushed by (needless to say, male) producers and execs, even when it makes zero sense.

 

I'd argue that it could be a chicken/egg thing. Do game makers make "sexy female" characters because of execs who think that's what the market wants or because the market actually responds well to it?  It might not matter in the end effect, but it matters in what way it might be improved.

 

This would be an easier topic to discuss if it was clear what drove some decisions and whether they were even consciously made or not.

 

 

And while my anecdotal evidence is limited (and naturally because of anecdotal nature not necessarily representative), the women I knew who worked in exotic dancing didn't choose to do it because they enjoyed it, but because of the money they made.

 

I'd lump "doesn't actively hate the job and thinks the money is way good enough" with "enjoys it". I mean, my point was more like "she's not a Victim of the Patriarchy Who Has To Be Rescued From The Awful, Awful Fate of Being a Stripper", but a person who made a choice knowing the benefits and the drawbacks of the job.

 

 

 

I wouldn't, necessarily. One of the exotic dancers I knew basically felt trapped in the job by the time I met her. She'd gotten into it for the money and the money allowed her to get independence from her parents. She got a boyfriend, had a kid, the boyfriend left her and she felt she had to keep stripping because she'd established a lifestyle for her kid that she couldn't pay for without the money for stripping and without the child's father contributing anything (essentially he was a deadbeat dad).  Thing is she knew that it was a limited lifespan as she was getting older, and she was trying to go to school to get a long term career, but she struggled because the lure of money kept pulling her away from her coursework.  Arguably she was addicted to the money (and possibly the attention) she got.

[Malcador]

You guys must not misunderstand me, or course I go to strip clubs to see beautiful women dance but that doesn't mean I can't be genuinely friendly to them 

 

Also the music I like is only played at a certain number of clubs so you often meet the same people and loads of strippers like the same music so its not like I won't see them again outside the stripclub

Hey, go to clubs for whatever reason you want - none of my business, really. My point was that if the end result is primarily titillation, it becomes almost hypocritical to be against strippers in games or media or whatever, but it doesn't seem to be in your case.

 

Opinions vary. I find verisimilitude-breaking objectification vaguely tasteless, but have no personal problem with it where it makes sense. Anita Sarkeesian would obviously disagree with me. There is no unifying feminist hivemind.

Uh huh, but invariably there are common enough points of complaint and that was one.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

I wouldn't, necessarily. One of the exotic dancers I knew basically felt trapped in the job by the time I met her. She'd gotten into it for the money and the money allowed her to get independence from her parents. She got a boyfriend, had a kid, the boyfriend left her and she felt she had to keep stripping because she'd established a lifestyle for her kid that she couldn't pay for without the money for stripping and without the child's father contributing anything (essentially he was a deadbeat dad).  Thing is she knew that it was a limited lifespan as she was getting older, and she was trying to go to school to get a long term career, but she struggled because the lure of money kept pulling her away from her coursework.  Arguably she was addicted to the money (and possibly the attention) she got.

 

 

Based on the (very) limited anecdotical evidence at my disposal, this doesn't seem to be an industry standard, though.

[Amentep]

 

 

I wouldn't, necessarily. One of the exotic dancers I knew basically felt trapped in the job by the time I met her. She'd gotten into it for the money and the money allowed her to get independence from her parents. She got a boyfriend, had a kid, the boyfriend left her and she felt she had to keep stripping because she'd established a lifestyle for her kid that she couldn't pay for without the money for stripping and without the child's father contributing anything (essentially he was a deadbeat dad).  Thing is she knew that it was a limited lifespan as she was getting older, and she was trying to go to school to get a long term career, but she struggled because the lure of money kept pulling her away from her coursework.  Arguably she was addicted to the money (and possibly the attention) she got.

 

 

Based on the (very) limited anecdotical evidence at my disposal, this doesn't seem to be an industry standard, though.

 

 

Yeah its a total anecdotal experience so I acknowledge it might not be applicable to the larger group despite how it influences my perspective.  Since I don't frequent strip clubs or know any strippers anymore, its possible it was symptomatic of this particular person, or the time period (about 25 years ago), or the regional area. 

 

I've also read of high levels of addiction (drugs/alcohol) with strippers, but again that was years ago and its possible that even those stories were more sensational.  I have no issue with the job or the people who perform it.

[Meshugger]

 

 

And "objectifying" in this context is not a shameful act?

 

 

Shameful in the wider societal sense, or in a personal morality sense?

 

 

Humor me please and answer me in both senses.

[Barothmuk]

I've never even played or owned Bayonetta, dude. It was a mere example.

And yet this was your starting point. This is what it will snowball from. This is so-called “unethical” journalism.

 

All this example shows (which is painfully obvious) is that GG is just people getting pissy about the “SJW agenda" in game’s journalism. It is why the “opposing side” consists primarily of self-proclaimed “SJWs” and its why 90% of GG discussion is merely MRA styled hissy-fits about feminism/Anita Sarkeesian.

 

Like I said before, had the various news outlets that covered this stupid fluff piece uncritically condemned the “anti-GG” I’m confident “Gamergaters” would not be filled with the same self-righteous fury.

...Fictional strippers entirely brought into existence by men, to increase a game's appeal for men is somewhat different from real life, living, breathing, flesh-and-blood people choosing to do that job.

It's curious that those who "choose" to do the job seem to almost entirely come from people with the fewest choices. Edited March 5, 2015 by Barothmuk

[Meshugger]

The friction seems to extend to devs now:

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2y0loa/drama_veteran_aaa_dev_denounces_tim_schafer/

 

[Volourn]

"...Fictional strippers entirely brought into existence by men, to increase a game's appeal for men is somewhat different from real life, living, breathing, flesh-and-blood people choosing to do that job because - Heavens forbid! - they enjoy it."

 

Yeah, because female developers don't bring fictional strippers/hot women in games. *cough* Bayonetta *cough* who is SJws big target,

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

The friction seems to extend to devs now:

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2y0loa/drama_veteran_aaa_dev_denounces_tim_schafer/

 

[Malcador]

Hate speech ? Nah, just a really poor attempt at wit.

[Volourn]

"I've also read of high levels of addiction (drugs/alcohol) with strippers"

 

I bet those who go to strip clubs also have high levels of addiction. I know a guy who once spent upwards of 1k at a strip club and that's despite the fact he was not rich.

 

 

"Hate speech ? Nah, just a really poor attempt at wit."

\

Nope. Hate speech.

[Elerond]

Hate speech is in law, hate speech is any speech, gesture or conduct, writing, or display which is forbidden because it may incite violence or prejudicial action against or by a protected individual or group, or because it disparages or intimidates a protected individual or group. The law may identify a protected individual or a protected group by certain characteristics.

 

Hate speech is outside the law, speech that attacks a person or group on the basis of attributes such as gender, ethnic origin, religion, race, disability, or sexual orientation.

 

Even with all poor judgement that Tim uses in his speech I am not sure that it any way constitutes as hate speech, especially if speak here against 'SJWs' and other groups is not considered as such.

[Meshugger]

I do not see it as hate speech, since i find the term stupid to begin with. I see it more as using the same lingo back at Tim.

[Fighter]

I wouldn't use the words hate speech. But the "joke" is that the women and minorities of GG aren't real.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

...Fictional strippers entirely brought into existence by men, to increase a game's appeal for men is somewhat different from real life, living, breathing, flesh-and-blood people choosing to do that job.

It's curious that those who "choose" to do the job seem to almost entirely come from people with the fewest choices.

 

 

"Almost entirely" seems to be an exaggeration to me. Mind, I don't visit strip clubs, so I have no horse in this race, but I was socialized to view the "poor oppressed sex workers need to be rescued from themselves" narrative with suspicion, because carceral feminism has a long-standing tradition of denying the agency of lower-status women.

 

(And the stuff I've read by strippers, sex workers and porn actresses has led me to believe that the majority actually prefers that line of work. I also seem to vaguely recall a few studies in the matter showing that the long-standing myths of drug abuse and having been abused as a child being way more prevalent among them are exactly that, myths.)

 

 

 

 

 

And "objectifying" in this context is not a shameful act?

 

 

Shameful in the wider societal sense, or in a personal morality sense?

 

 

Humor me please and answer me in both senses.

 

 

Wider societal sense: probably not, otherwise we wouldn't have it ****ing everywhere (because society in general is very good at disincentivizing acts it deems shameful).

 

Personal morality sense: "shameful" is not a good word. But first, a digression: by "objectifying", I mean a very specific thing. To objectify is to dehumanize. You take a human being and reduce them to a collection body parts, devoid of meaning, aside from the titillation value. Boob armor is a good example. It goes against common sense and practicality; verisimilitude, the wearer's well-being and intelligence are all secondary concerns to the consumer's titillation. I find this to be an exceedingly immature and slightly sociopathic attitude. Morally questionable, but not inherently shameful.

Edited March 5, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid