435 Discussion

[Odd Hermit]

Quick question: Chanter summons - do they gain damage from the Chanter's might and/or any talents? IE if I summon Will-o-wisps, and I have 20 might and Heart of the Storm, do they deal more damage?

 

 

 Question....as much as i love the environment art and pretty much everything else about poe, i was wondering, to those who have access to the beta:

How do the slightly low poly, low res texture clad 3D models with no anti-aliasing and jagged edges, look against the perfectly smooth, almost photo-realistic backgrounds?

 

Can't make out much from youtube videos, but even with the lighting i always seem to get the impression that there's a slight discrepancy between the way the characters are lit and the ambient lighting applied to the environments. Especially at night, it looks like there are some extra bright lights shining down on the characters, so much so that they appear to be highlighted.

 

I recall reading somewhere that as of version 435, the ambient maps ang lighting have been tweaked? And any kind of anti-aliasing options available for the 3D stuff?

 

They look fairly nice. In the character generator they're a bit rough, but in game you see them from more of a distance and they blend quite well.

 

Some improvements could be made, and some race's models look nicer than others right now, but they're not going to detract from the overall aesthetic IMO.

[Sensuki]

Anti-aliasing currently does not work in the character viewer - Character Creation, Inventory, Level Up screens etc. It only works in the game world.

[Odd Hermit]

I really hope we can toggle the auto-attacking in response to getting hit AI off in the actual game. It's annoying the hell out of me lately.

[Sensuki]

Because it's buggy. If it's still not right in the next version, feel free to add your complaint to my bug reports about it.

[Odd Hermit]

Anyone know if/how attack speed modifiers affect cast speed?

 

I've considered taking Cautious Attack on my casters, I'm not worried about the attack speed of my Druid or Priest right now and would rather have them be more durable. But if it makes me cast slower, meh. The +5 deflection talent on its own though seems like too little for a talent.

[Sensuki]

Yeah it will slow your cast speed down by 20%

If you have a cast animation of 3 seconds and a recovery time of 3 seconds, your recovery will now be 4.2 seconds. It takes the total time of animation+recovery and penalizes you for the total, rather than just recovery time itself.

[Sensuki]

Gonna do a few of these until a new patch comes out

 

Gonna use the same party and apply a different strategy each time and see which is the best one.

[Veevoir]

Speaking of stuff that doesn't work - paladins. I wanted to create a DPS with 2h weapon that can withstand a few hits and it seems that paladin will fail me at that.

Who'd you recommend for 2h dps - a fighter or a barbarian? I've seen what carnage can do, but are a bit concerned that barbarian lower accuracy (even lower on carnage attacks) + slow attack speed of 2h may end up as a festival of misses.
On the other hand having AoE attacks with a high-dmg weapon seems like a perfect way to end up the fight quickly.

After Sensuki's musketeer video I also considered rogue, but I'm very concerned with squishiness. And considering Fighter has master/superior weapon focus I feel the fighter's  accuracy "overflow" leading to a higher number of crits is underrated. BUt hey, not having BB I can only speculate, that's why Im asking for help.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Veevoir

[Sensuki]

Rogue, lol. Just make sure you have a couple characters to take aggro.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Sensuki

[Veevoir]

But is rogue *that* good in melee? I mean, with fighter getting 3 masteries of the weapon, confident aim, disciplined barrage and such - the damage output should be high and consistent, all the time. And delivered by a much less squishy individual
Is there something I am missing about the rogue? Because if I were to make rogue I surely wouldn't stick that fragile being into the fray, but instead kit him/her out with guns :D It seems very situational to be in melee as rogue, whole engagement has to be geared towards distracting enemies from hitting the rogue, which may badly influence effectiveness of party as a whole (as in: rogue can't do it on their own)

Edited March 9, 2015 by Veevoir

[Sensuki]

Yes, they are - if you don't mind being active. Blinding Strike and two Crippling Strikes give you a fair damage boost in encounters and you can use them every encounter. Not only do they give x1.25 damage and a status effect - they allow you to qualify for sneak attack against the target. Confident Aim is a _TERRIBLE_ ability tbh - it gives you like 7% chance to do 50% more damage, and increases your minimum damage from 20% to 24% ... big whoop.

 

Just checked the files, Confident Aim actually increases the minimum weapon damage number, rather than your minimum damage percent through DR. That's not bad, especially with 2Hers.

EG if your minimum base damage is 20, it will become 24.

 

Edited March 9, 2015 by Sensuki

[Killyox]

I wonder how would a rogue fare with 2h spear for reach and staying out of harms way while still doing pretty nice melee dmg.

[cresentdark]

Paladins are not really ever built for high DPS, they are meant to take hits and do a fair amount of damage but never a lot otherwise you would not need anyone else other than paladins. In BG2 one of the best 2 Handed swords was not gotten till you were a decent level anyways but even still they were no match for the wizards DPS as much as I don't like wizards I have top give them credit for DPS. Like my BG2 runs and all others I will probably run with Two paladins or a Paladin, Fighter, Druid, Rouge/Druid, Wizard and either another Fighter/Barbarian or Priest. Rouge do high DPS but I only ever have them because they are good at picking locks or finding traps but seeing as how this game allows you to do that with anyone I probably won't even use a rouge I like having crazy tank party's with high DPS.

Edited March 9, 2015 by cresentdark

[wanderon]

I wonder how would a rogue fare with 2h spear for reach and staying out of harms way while still doing pretty nice melee dmg.

 

Spear is one handed in POE and I don't think it is a reach weapon - pike or quarterstaff are the only "reach" weapons according to wiki - seems like Pollaxe should be as well.

[morhilane]

 

I wonder how would a rogue fare with 2h spear for reach and staying out of harms way while still doing pretty nice melee dmg.

 

Spear is one handed in POE and I don't think it is a reach weapon - pike or quarterstaff are the only "reach" weapons according to wiki - seems like Pollaxe should be as well.

 

 

I'm pretty sure I used spears while standing behind BB Figher to attack the same enemy he does in an older BB release. And spears has a "s" because my character was dual wielding them.

[Odd Hermit]

Bear's Fort / Snake's Reflexes vs. Body Control / Unstoppable?

 

I'm stuck on a Druid talent 'cause I'm skipping Scion of Flame this time around. (Druid just has better Freeze/Shock spells). I think his Reflex score is hopeless so I was thinking shoring up his Fortitude could help.

 

 

Or I could just give him penetrating shot and have him be better at shooting while not casting. Decisions decisions.

[Gromnir]

Paladins are not really ever built for high DPS, they are meant to take hits and do a fair amount of damage but never a lot otherwise you would not need anyone else other than paladins. In BG2 one of the best 2 Handed swords was not gotten till you were a decent level anyways but even still they were no match for the wizards DPS as much as I don't like wizards I have top give them credit for DPS. Like my BG2 runs and all others I will probably run with Two paladins or a Paladin, Fighter, Druid, Rouge/Druid, Wizard and either another Fighter/Barbarian or Priest. Rouge do high DPS but I only ever have them because they are good at picking locks or finding traps but seeing as how this game allows you to do that with anyone I probably won't even use a rouge I like having crazy tank party's with high DPS.

bg2 paladins and poe paladins is different.  poe paladins role is neither tanky or dps-- they are a support class.  the poe paladin has average accuracy and good health and deflection, which sounds more tanky than dps.  even so, their main contribution should be how their auras improve the defenses and/or damage potential o' everybody else in your party rather than how well they do individually at dealing or absorbing damage.  as far as the support classes are concerned, paladins are more tanky than dps, and with the right talents and gear, a paladin can effectively tank, but that isn't actually their role... and dps is almost an afterthought, regardless o' the curiously tacked-on smite ability.

 

the obsidian developers shoulda' changed the names o' the classes to avoid confusion.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Chilloutman]

Does anyone tried monk with weapons? I mean are they comparable with his fists? I kind of dont like idea of bare fist monk but on other hand I dont know if it will not gimp that class too much when i give him weapon. I got beta but currently not much time to test it.

 

Edit:

 

I feel like idiot, there just pop up thread with same question

Edited March 10, 2015 by Chilloutman

[wanderon]

I thought the ability to equip both a pistol and a weapon had been removed but I was able to do so yesterday (but too late to actually try it in combat) - is "pirate style" back or was it never removed??

[Sensuki]

It's a bug.

[Whipstitch]

bg2 paladins and poe paladins is different.  poe paladins role is neither tanky or dps-- they are a support class.  the poe paladin has average accuracy and good health and deflection, which sounds more tanky than dps.  even so, their main contribution should be how their auras improve the defenses and/or damage potential o' everybody else in your party rather than how well they do individually at dealing or absorbing damage.  as far as the support classes are concerned, paladins are more tanky than dps, and with the right talents and gear, a paladin can effectively tank, but that isn't actually their role... and dps is almost an afterthought, regardless o' the curiously tacked-on smite ability.

 

the obsidian developers shoulda' changed the names o' the classes to avoid confusion.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

You're putting waaaaaaay too much stock into a few development buzzwords that rarely even get mentioned anymore and aren't even mentioned in the game proper. Let's put aside the fact that BG Paladins were listed as a Warrior sub-type and that Josh has called PoE Paladins support oriented in the past and look at what they actually do.

 

BG Paladins were ideologues with support abilities that supplemented but did not usurp their role as capable front line combatants. Their offensive and defensive potential in D&D and BG was built almost entirely on the fact that they were mathematically well-situated to be full participants in basic front line combat by virtue of having a Fighter equivalent base chassis complete with good saves and hit points, with fighters outperforming them in damage largely due to Paladins receiving less proficiency bonuses. If you actually looked at their class features you got things that sound suspiciously like support abilities such as Lay on Hands, Remove Fear, Dispel Magic and other abilities that would be firmly classed as support in PoE.

 

Meanwhile, in PoE, Paladins are ideologues with support abilities that supplement but do not usurp their role as capable front line combatants. They have a base chassis that's virtually identical to a Fighter's and, in my opinion, better than a Barbarian's. The 5 points of accuracy Paladins give up relative to Fighters can be trivially patched up by Zealous Focus and Paladins only fall behind Fighters in terms of damage because Fighters receive some weapon proficiency themed passive abilities. Hell, for several levels I wouldn't even be surprised to find that Paladins tend to out damage fighters--You may object to Flames of Devotion being suggested by players for some weird reason but that quality alone doesn't actually make it a bad ability. From there Paladins move onto getting the promised support abilities, most of which are analogues to the stuff they had in Baldur's Gate.

 

Honestly, my biggest objection to Paladins isn't really their effectiveness relative to the average class, but rather that I find just being a dude with decent stats and some reactive abilities rather boring. I felt much the same way about BG Paladins.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Whipstitch

[Gromnir]

 

bg2 paladins and poe paladins is different.  poe paladins role is neither tanky or dps-- they are a support class.  the poe paladin has average accuracy and good health and deflection, which sounds more tanky than dps.  even so, their main contribution should be how their auras improve the defenses and/or damage potential o' everybody else in your party rather than how well they do individually at dealing or absorbing damage.  as far as the support classes are concerned, paladins are more tanky than dps, and with the right talents and gear, a paladin can effectively tank, but that isn't actually their role... and dps is almost an afterthought, regardless o' the curiously tacked-on smite ability.

 

the obsidian developers shoulda' changed the names o' the classes to avoid confusion.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

You're putting waaaaaaay too much stock into a few development buzzwords that rarely even get mentioned anymore and aren't even mentioned in the game proper. Let's put aside the fact that BG Paladins were listed as a Warrior sub-type and that Josh has called PoE Paladins support oriented in the past and look at what they actually do.

 

BG Paladins were ideologues with support abilities that supplemented but did not usurp their role as capable front line combatants. Their offensive and defensive potential in D&D and BG was built almost entirely on the fact that they were mathematically well-situated to be full participants in basic front line combat by virtue of having a Fighter equivalent base chassis complete with good saves and hit points, with fighters outperforming them in damage largely due to Paladins receiving less proficiency bonuses. If you actually looked at their class features you got things that sound suspiciously like support abilities such as Lay on Hands, Remove Fear, Dispel Magic and other abilities that would be firmly classed as support in PoE.

 

Meanwhile, in PoE, Paladins are ideologues with support abilities that supplement but do not usurp their role as capable front line combatants. They have a base chassis that's virtually identical to a Fighter's and, in my opinion, better than a Barbarian's. The 5 points of accuracy Paladins give up relative to Fighters can be trivially patched up by Zealous Focus and Paladins only fall behind Fighters in terms of damage because Fighters receive some weapon proficiency themed passive abilities. Hell, for several levels I wouldn't even be surprised to find that Paladins tend to out damage fighters--You may object to Flames of Devotion being suggested by players for some weird reason but that quality alone doesn't actually make it a bad ability. From there Paladins move onto getting the promised support abilities, most of which are analogues to the stuff they had in Baldur's Gate.

 

Honestly, my biggest objection to Paladins isn't really their effectiveness relative to the average class, but rather that I find just being a dude with decent stats and some reactive abilities rather boring. I felt much the same way about BG Paladins.

 

your description o' bg2 abilities is a gross misrepresentation. yes, the paladin abilities might sound like support abilities from the naming, but from any practical pov, those abilities were largely incidental.  who in a ie game relied on the paladin's support abilities? insignificant healing and minor buff spells?  the High Level paladin actual were getting useful spells, but not support spells 'nuff to make a paladin replace other support specailists.  the same spells that could temporarily turn a cleric into a melee powerhouse eventual became accessible to the paladin.   bg2 Kits for paladins actual complete changed things and further defined the paladin as a front-line combatant.  the holy avenger, which most paladins were likely to use, made the paladin an extremely powerful combatant capable of dealing and taking damage on par with a fighter.  sure, a pure kensai might out damage a paladin, or a dual-wielding berserker with 5 stars in hammers, but the cavalier, inquisitor and undead slayer were situationally  as good as fighters against the most powerful foes one were likely to encounter.  

 

in addition, with the minimum ability bonuses, a single roll paladin were far more likely to have exceptional strength, high constitution and exceptional charisma... sadly, the wisdom bonus for mag. def. adj. were nonexistent in the ie games, so that addition were worthless save in very few dialogue encounters.  even for the individual who pathologically re-rolled, the paladin would result in a character more useful in dialogs and with far better overall stats.

 

so, the ie paladin gave up some damage output and in return he got the holy avenger, (or some similar variation in all ie games save bg... heck, there were even a lg only super-weapon in ps:t, but that clear weren't limited to nonexistent paladins) special abilities against the most powerful foes in the game, increased survivability,  and better stats.  the reason for choosing a paladin over a fighter in ie games were Not because o' the paltry support abilities.  be fair.

 

"The 5 points of accuracy Paladins give up relative to Fighters can be trivially patched up by Zealous Focus and Paladins only fall behind Fighters in terms of damage because Fighters receive some weapon proficiency themed passive abilities."

 

you also underestimate the impact o' the above.  fighters receive numerous abilities that might improve them either as a tank OR dps dealer... which we see as a mistake btw.  are you falling into the same mistake and trying to pretend poe fighter is same as ie? regardless, choice o' talents and the inherent abilities will makes fighters better tanks than paladins, and better at dps too.  rogues, whose role is actual dps, will far outstrip paladins in that role. and we note that zealous focus is an aura that improves your entire party.  if you use zealous focus, you are boosting your party fighter as well... and everybody else.  kinda naughty o' you to bring up zealous focus as it is a support ability, and a powerful one at that. sorry, but you is actual reinforcing the notion o' the paladin as support.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited March 10, 2015 by Gromnir

[Whipstitch]

d we note that zealous focus is an aura that improves your entire party.  if you use zealous focus, you are boosting your party fighter as well... and everybody else.  kinda naughty o' you to bring up zealous focus as it is a support ability, and a powerful one at that. sorry, but you is actual reinforcing the notion o' the paladin as support.  [/size]

 

HA! Good Fun!

I know, right? If only Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale or NWN paladins had something conceptually similar like Bless effects or auras. Oh wait, they totally did. My bad. And since Fighter accuracy is viable with or without Zealous Focus it stands to reason that a Paladin benefiting from Zealous Focus has viable accuracy given that the two are equivalent.

 

Also, do you seriously think everyone who played Baldur's Gate and selected Paladins did so because they had the metagame knowledge that Carsomyr was going to be a surprise class feature in a sequel that may not have even come out yet? I think it's more likely that many people selected Paladins for thematic reasons plus the draw of being a front liner with support options instead of weapon specializations. I know that's why I picked a paladin the first time.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Whipstitch

[Gromnir]

oh, yeah, the first level bless spell that were complete eclipsed by superior party buffing spells from genuine support casters. a spell, btw, a paladin couldn't even cast in BG because he/she wouldn't have access to it til 9th level.  yes. thanks for bringing paladin's eventual ability to cast bless, cause it works exact like zealous focus.  poe is having us reach level 11 or 12?  excellent tack to take.

 

and yes, the holy avenger were a known quantity in bg2. it were revealed in print previews, and on the interplay boards the developers had announced, quite early, that the holy avenger would be a 2-h weapon... for balance, because it were so powerful and we were knowing ahead o' time that it would be extreme powerful.  so, yeah, we suspect a great many players who chose to play paladins knew there would be a holy avenger in bg2, and even more had a pretty freaking good working knowledge o' almost exactly what the weapon would be capable of doing in the game. heck, we recall that the Holy Avenger even got mentioned in a couple of advertisements that gave examples o' traditional monsters and magic items that would be included in bg2.

 

and the thematic reasons for playing a paladin were most likely tied to the Warrior o' goodness who were charismatic and capable o' going toe-to-toe with demons, dragons, liches and wizards, oh my.  the thematic appeal o' a ie game paladin were bit different from, a bg cleric, a genuine support class.

 

but at least you is no longer bringing up poe fighter to paladin dps comparisons anymore.  baby steps.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Whipstitch]

I stand by my earlier comments. Paladins deal less damage than Fighters in both games beyond a certain level but it's not nearly as big a gap as you're making it out to be in PoE, not by a long shot. Both classes have very few pure DPS abilites with the bulk of their damage coming from the simple expedient of throwing on the nicest weapon you can get and whacking away. Yet you seem to think that things are different enough that Paladins deserve a name change because they're not warriors. That's friggin' weird given that Paladin auras aren't even that powerful and the class only succeeds because the opportunity they cost for providing support is so very, very low.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Whipstitch