435 Discussion

[Gromnir]

" it would be quest experience we already have that"

 

yes?  what is wrong with that?  identify that we already got quest xp is not an indication that all those things you seem to want from exploration xp would be achieved better through a mechanical grant o' xp as opposed to a potentially more reactive quest.

 

"by exploring the game world - finding new maps - opening doors to new areas - some are simple some are not - all require exploring the world presented to you whether it means entering a building you have never been in before or discovering a hidden passage deep in a cave."

 

all such stuff can be made milestones as part o' a large quest, with the advantage that there would necessarily be far more flexibility in rewards and solutions via a quest than a mechanical xp grant, and you would still get incremental xp awards for completion o' milestones for those who need such stuff.

 

sooooooo...

 

is something about the word "quest" that annoys people? otherwise, am still failing to see a point.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited February 12, 2015 by Gromnir

[Namutree]

This becoming an xp thread! Time to talk about something else...

 

Has anyone noticed how weak the Medreth party seems to be in this build. It's kinda lame. Give them a little buff Obsidian; the freakin' beetles are tougher than they are.

[Gfted1]

Like in D&D then? Making regular items costs a bit of raw goods, less than buying it—and similarly for making magical equipment, except that costs XP too? : )

 

Golden Frobnicator recipe:

* 300 foo

* 32 bar

* 1 baz

* 1700 XP cost

 

 

Crafting in PoE also has a materials cost, but no xp cost. Players should earn xp from their craftings and the xp reward should go up with higher level crafts. Too bad we cant break objects down to their crafting materials as that would be another good place to earn xp. Can I get a hell yeah!

[Gromnir]

hell no!  though, by making some kinda crafting quest, am certain you could make it a more compelling idea.  manage to create some particular craftable items and gather rare ingredients would eventual lead to awarding o' ___________.  doesn't matter what is in the blank as it can be changed or have multiple options.  perhaps you get minions to do crafting or you actual use other small quests with random world craftsman npcs to help you with your crafting quest?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Sock]

This becoming an xp thread! Time to talk about something else...

 

Has anyone noticed how weak the Medreth party seems to be in this build. It's kinda lame. Give them a little buff Obsidian; the freakin' beetles are tougher than they are.

 

Either everything got weaker, or I just got better. I obliterated the first beetle group on hard. I think I lost a sum total of 60 endurance from that fight. With an unoptimized group, 14 str/per/int/res, 12 con, 10 dex for paladin/ranger/chanter/priest. Fighter (with 2h weapon and defensive stance) with Eder's stats, and a wizard with Spirit of Flame and Aloth's stats. It could just be that combusting wounds with spirit of flame is brutal, especially when combined with the level 1 missle spell (3 hits = 3 triggers for combusting wounds). 

 

I do have a lot of balance concerns with certain spells and abilities. Kalashnikov's Minor Blights is brutal for a "set it and forget it" ability. Thrice She Was Wronged is exceptional. Either of those combined with Combusting Wounds is god-tier, since Combusting Wounds triggers damage on each hit, so add in a dual wielding barbarian and we're talking obscene damage levels from that spell.

 

I do love the mechanic of Combusting Wounds, but it needs to be a much higher spell level. I'm thinking 5 or 6. Thrice She Was Wronged needs to be a tier 3 invocation. Kalashinkov's Minor Blights should have it's duration halved.

[Namutree]

hell no!  though, by making some kinda crafting quest, am certain you could make it a more compelling idea.  manage to create some particular craftable items and gather rare ingredients would eventual lead to awarding o' ___________.  doesn't matter what is in the blank as it can be changed or have multiple options.  perhaps you get minions to do crafting or you actual use other small quests with random world craftsman npcs to help you with your crafting quest?

 

HA! Good Fun!

Why do you insist on shoehorning a quest into every possible source of xp, as if adding the quest contributes to the mechanic in any way? If it does; I would sure like to know what it adds.

 

EDIT: Dang it! I was supposed to stop talking about this! Bad me! BAD!

Edited February 12, 2015 by Namutree

[Namutree]

 

This becoming an xp thread! Time to talk about something else...

 

Has anyone noticed how weak the Medreth party seems to be in this build. It's kinda lame. Give them a little buff Obsidian; the freakin' beetles are tougher than they are.

 

Either everything got weaker, or I just got better. I obliterated the first beetle group on hard.

It could be both. I wasn't really talking about the difficulty across the board though; just how Medreth compares to other foes. For being a quest battle Medreth seems too weak compared to ordinary encounters. I do agree though that things are easier than some of the previous builds.

[Gromnir]

 

hell no!  though, by making some kinda crafting quest, am certain you could make it a more compelling idea.  manage to create some particular craftable items and gather rare ingredients would eventual lead to awarding o' ___________.  doesn't matter what is in the blank as it can be changed or have multiple options.  perhaps you get minions to do crafting or you actual use other small quests with random world craftsman npcs to help you with your crafting quest?

 

HA! Good Fun!

Why do you insist on shoehorning a quest into every possible source of xp, as if adding the quest contributes to the mechanic in any way? If it does; I would sure like to hear it.

 

EDIT: Dang it! I was supposed to stop talking about this! Bad me! BAD!

 

is because you have it reversed.  make xp rewards mindless and mechanical robs developers and players o' potential depth.  kill 30 trolls. get 1000 xp.  is mechanical and... dull.  make a quest to get rid o' various beasties allows far more flexibility o' potential resolutions and rewards.  perhaps convince a band o' mercenaries to kill off ten o' the trolls by helping them with _______ or paying them or intimidating them. etc.  

 

you is looking at it reversed.  is mechanical and reflexive xp rewards that robs us o' the potential options developers could inject into the game.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[forgottenlor]

 

hell no!  though, by making some kinda crafting quest, am certain you could make it a more compelling idea.  manage to create some particular craftable items and gather rare ingredients would eventual lead to awarding o' ___________.  doesn't matter what is in the blank as it can be changed or have multiple options.  perhaps you get minions to do crafting or you actual use other small quests with random world craftsman npcs to help you with your crafting quest?

 

HA! Good Fun!

Why do you insist on shoehorning a quest into every possible source of xp, as if adding the quest contributes to the mechanic in any way? If it does; I would sure like to know what it adds.

 

EDIT: Dang it! I was supposed to stop talking about this! Bad me! BAD!

 

The main complaint which lead to exploration XP was the lack of regular XP. Early players of the backer beta complained about playing for an hour with no xp gain. Whether its part of a quest or not is irrelevant if the XP is coming in at regular intervals. Having an explorer's guild, archeologist, or cartographer ask you to look for places makes the process more immersive, if done well.

Edited February 12, 2015 by forgottenlor

[wanderon]

Maybe we should just do away with XP altogether - after all its a single player game - no one to beat - no need to keep score

[Gromnir]

xp itself is indeed pointless, and it has never been a way to "keep score" from our perspective.  what an odd notion. in any event, developers realize that single-player role-play games don't have the social or story-building aspects that does pnp rpgs, but they still got leveling. players like to have their characters become... better. xp is a simple way for players to see how long they got til they level and have the next opportunity to improve their character and/or party.  along with improving equipment, leveling is a key motivation for many players.  there is also story, but unlike a pnp rpg wherein the story-building is collaborative, the player is only a witness to the developers crpg story, though the illusion o' player power is important even so. regardless, lack o' incremental and constant xp awards (which can be done with quests as easy as they can be done with mechanical and non reactive awards) seeming ruined the sense o' progress some folks needed as leveling were their goal, or at least a significant goal.

 

players want to level, but they want to feel like they is earning it. is a sp crpg, so games is meant to be beatable by any yutz with a couple o' firing neurons, but even so, sense o' making progress as the result o' the player's work or cleverness is key. players want to believe that their efforts earned them their leveling reward.  get a level automatic for every 3 hours played?  is perhaps ironic that such a mindless mechanic would be unsatisfactory to the average player.  has a complicated system o' xp awards that is designed to have players level approximately every 3 hours on average is embraced while the mechanical grant o' levels would be spurned. 

 

xp works because folks seeming need to feel like they is being rewarded for their efforts. other solutions has been attempted and has value, but xp is, at the very least, familiar.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps we caught the sarcasm even w/o an emoticon, but sometimes is best to treat absurdest or sarcastic arguments as serious.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Gromnir

[Sensuki]

[Raist007]

Ok, i have done everything I can and defeated all of the enemies in the Rhemen Temple, and I still cannot complete the 'quest'.  I have two peeps standing on the glowing tiles and have tried all sorts of arrangements of the party standing on the dais or down by the urn, and nothing.  Even tried equipping the sword from defeating the 'boss' of the temple and still cannot get this to work.  I saw a video of someone completing the temple but that was an earlier beta version.  Am I missing something?  Please help - thanks!  

 

As a side note, I have been playing main character as a chanter and must say it is kind of unorthodox and confusing to use.  Trying to get the hang of it, but am mostly relying on fighter/rogue along with hired barbarian to do the messy work while priest heals and wizard cats the heck out of missile spells  - lol.

[Luckmann]

Just for reference, this was the Attribute Bonuses in v392:

 

Attributes in v392:
 
MGT: +3% Damage & Healing, +2 Fortitude.
CON: +2% Endurance & Health, +2 Fortitude.
DEX: +3% Action Spd, +2 Reflex.
PER: +2 Accuracy, +5% Range, +2 Reflex.
INT: +6% AoE, +2 Deflection, +2 Will.
RES: +3% Concentration, +5% Duration, +2 Will.

This had some clear issues, the foremost one being that Perception was incredibly valuable, due to the +2 Accuracy per point. Accuracy was, however, broken, due to the game's damage calculations at the time. This has since been fixed.

 

These are the current v435 Attribute Bonuses:

 

Attributes in v435:
 
MGT: +3% Damage & Healing, +2 Fortitude.
CON: +3% Endurance & Health, +2 Fortitude.
DEX: +3% Action Spd, +2 Reflex.
PER: +6 Interrupt, +1 Deflection, +2 Reflex.
INT: +6% AoE, +5% Duration, +1 Will.
RES: +6% Concentration, +1 Deflection, +2 Will.

Interestingly, one developer (or was it QA?) said that this was the most balanced yet, even though Interrupt calculations are currently broken and Dexterity works in reverse, and it's got some big issues I'd like to raise (that has mostly been raised elsewhere, but I thought I'd make a single post to discuss it, even though I'm somewhat hampered due to the ongoing lack of an edit function, so if I end up double-posting like mad, bear with me).

 

These are obviously arguably quite subjective, at least in part, the subject being me. C'est la vie.

• Resolve is greatly undervalued in comparison to most other attributes, this is particularly grating with the Paladin in mind, who you'd think would do well with Resolve, conceptually and roleplaying-wise. It is a clear "pump or dump"-stat, where the only ones that will have reason to pump it are those that are going for a tanking role and nothing else.
• Intellect is overvalued for casters. It has consolidated two primary modifiers for most caster builds, whether Wizard or Priest, which is AoE and Duration. Hilariously enough, Intellect is now also a prime attribute for the Barbarian, which is as conceptually unsound and roleplayingly odd as Paladins doing bad with Resolve.
• Accuracy was completely removed, even though the cause for doing so may not be relevant any longer.
• Likewise, the +Range modifier was removed; whilst only applicable to ranged combatants and therefore arguably presenting a overvaluing/undervaluing issue depending on build and class, isn't that an issue inherent to the attribute system, and indeed, largely the point of it?
• Intellect now only gives +1 Will, instead of 2; this was likely to prevent the overvaluing of Intellect after endowing it with the consolidation of caster modifiers, but honestly it does nothing to curtail it. This is likely the reason Fortitude, Reflex and Will modifiers are now also listed, as previously they were not, when they did not differ from eachother, it was +2 across the board (afaik).

I'd like to suggest the following:

 

Suggested Modifiers:

MGT: +3% Damage & Healing, +3 Interrupt +2 Fortitude.
CON: +3% Endurance & Health, +3% Concentration, +2 Fortitude.
DEX: +3% Action Speed, +2 Deflection +2 Reflex.
PER: +1 Accuracy, +3 Interrupt, +3% Range +2 Reflex.
INT: +6% Duration, +2 Deflection, +2 Will.
RES: +6% AoE, +6% Concentration, +2 Will.

• There would be a greater synergy between some of the Attributes, for focused builds, such as a interrupter (Interrupt) that hits hard (MGT) and precise (PER) with every blow, the intelligent (INT) and nimble (DEX) warrior playing on his defensive strengths (Deflection), or a focused (RES) and athletic (CON) man that pushes through no matter how hard he's hit (Concentration).
• Intellect would now be an option for the intelligent, defensive warrior.
• Intellect would no longer be the one-stop-shop for casters.
• Resolve reaffirms it's position as the Attribute that represents a character's power (or wish) to influence the world or not be influenced by it.
• Constitution is no longer largely meaningless, and slightly less of a dump stat. A small but significant boost, but mostly conceptually.
• Perception may appear overvalued again, but do note that the bonus to interrupt has been cut in half. It is slightly more valuable to ranged combatants than to melee combatants, which is entirely intended.
• I had more points, I swear, but I seem to be exhibiting a bit of an aneurysm at the moment, I would edit in more, but I can't, so just live with it.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on how the Attributes should look and what modifiers they should have.

[Sock]

Did you loot the boss with the stash? If so, it ate your soulstone and that's why you can't complete the spear.

[Sensuki]

Wait what? why does INT only give +1 Will ?

 

That doesn't make sense.

 

I thought the whole ****ing point of having all attributes give the same amount of the secondary defenses was because of unification / easy to explain rules? Now all of a sudden we're having exceptions?

 

Not to mention that you can now get 10 less Will than the other Attributes if you want to build a max-Will character.

 

[jackie-chan-wtf.jpeg]

Edited February 13, 2015 by Sensuki

[Gromnir]

Just for reference, this was the Attribute Bonuses in v392:

 

Attributes in v392:
 
MGT: +3% Damage & Healing, +2 Fortitude.
CON: +2% Endurance & Health, +2 Fortitude.
DEX: +3% Action Spd, +2 Reflex.
PER: +2 Accuracy, +5% Range, +2 Reflex.
INT: +6% AoE, +2 Deflection, +2 Will.
RES: +3% Concentration, +5% Duration, +2 Will.

This had some clear issues, the foremost one being that Perception was incredibly valuable, due to the +2 Accuracy per point. Accuracy was, however, broken, due to the game's damage calculations at the time. This has since been fixed.

 

These are the current v435 Attribute Bonuses:

 

Attributes in v435:
 
MGT: +3% Damage & Healing, +2 Fortitude.
CON: +3% Endurance & Health, +2 Fortitude.
DEX: +3% Action Spd, +2 Reflex.
PER: +6 Interrupt, +1 Deflection, +2 Reflex.
INT: +6% AoE, +5% Duration, +1 Will.
RES: +6% Concentration, +1 Deflection, +2 Will.

Interestingly, one developer (or was it QA?) said that this was the most balanced yet, even though Interrupt calculations are currently broken and Dexterity works in reverse, and it's got some big issues I'd like to raise (that has mostly been raised elsewhere, but I thought I'd make a single post to discuss it, even though I'm somewhat hampered due to the ongoing lack of an edit function, so if I end up double-posting like mad, bear with me).

 

These are obviously arguably quite subjective, at least in part, the subject being me. C'est la vie.

• Resolve is greatly undervalued in comparison to most other attributes, this is particularly grating with the Paladin in mind, who you'd think would do well with Resolve, conceptually and roleplaying-wise. It is a clear "pump or dump"-stat, where the only ones that will have reason to pump it are those that are going for a tanking role and nothing else.
• Intellect is overvalued for casters. It has consolidated two primary modifiers for most caster builds, whether Wizard or Priest, which is AoE and Duration. Hilariously enough, Intellect is now also a prime attribute for the Barbarian, which is as conceptually unsound and roleplayingly odd as Paladins doing bad with Resolve.
• Accuracy was completely removed, even though the cause for doing so may not be relevant any longer.
• Likewise, the +Range modifier was removed; whilst only applicable to ranged combatants and therefore arguably presenting a overvaluing/undervaluing issue depending on build and class, isn't that an issue inherent to the attribute system, and indeed, largely the point of it?
• Intellect now only gives +1 Will, instead of 2; this was likely to prevent the overvaluing of Intellect after endowing it with the consolidation of caster modifiers, but honestly it does nothing to curtail it. This is likely the reason Fortitude, Reflex and Will modifiers are now also listed, as previously they were not, when they did not differ from eachother, it was +2 across the board (afaik).

I'd like to suggest the following:

 

Suggested Modifiers:

MGT: +3% Damage & Healing, +3 Interrupt +2 Fortitude.
CON: +3% Endurance & Health, +3% Concentration, +2 Fortitude.
DEX: +3% Action Speed, +2 Deflection +2 Reflex.
PER: +1 Accuracy, +3 Interrupt, +3% Range +2 Reflex.
INT: +6% Duration, +2 Deflection, +2 Will.
RES: +6% AoE, +6% Concentration, +2 Will.

• There would be a greater synergy between some of the Attributes, for focused builds, such as a interrupter (Interrupt) that hits hard (MGT) and precise (PER) with every blow, the intelligent (INT) and nimble (DEX) warrior playing on his defensive strengths (Deflection), or a focused (RES) and athletic (CON) man that pushes through no matter how hard he's hit (Concentration).
• Intellect would now be an option for the intelligent, defensive warrior.
• Intellect would no longer be the one-stop-shop for casters.
• Resolve reaffirms it's position as the Attribute that represents a character's power (or wish) to influence the world or not be influenced by it.
• Constitution is no longer largely meaningless, and slightly less of a dump stat. A small but significant boost, but mostly conceptually.
• Perception may appear overvalued again, but do note that the bonus to interrupt has been cut in half. It is slightly more valuable to ranged combatants than to melee combatants, which is entirely intended.
• I had more points, I swear, but I seem to be exhibiting a bit of an aneurysm at the moment, I would edit in more, but I can't, so just live with it.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on how the Attributes should look and what modifiers they should have.

 

am admitting that we kinda like most o' luckman suggestions for attributes.  we don't believe might needs a boost to interrupt as it is already one o' the more useful attributes in 435.  also, we would be hesitant to give +6 concentration for resolve AND +3% for a point o' constitution.  based on josh posts, interrupt is already gonna be weakened in the final release and we see no reason to further add concentration opportunities which would/could diminish interrupt.  even so, we kinda like luckman suggestions as it would, at first blush, make resolve and perception relevant while reducing the essential quality o' intelligence for most any caster... and a few other builds. our concerns with luckman suggestions is mostly quibbles.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Sensuki]

Interrupt is only useful in this build because the calculation is bugged.

[Gromnir]

that is kinda our point. interrupt is gonna be emasculated by josh, so why make concentration even a greater obstacle for interrupt?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Sensuki]

Yeah they should give even values.

[Whipstitch]

Seconding the Jackie Chan face. Duration bonuses are nice and all, but it's not like every class really gives a crap about AoE size.

 

I also often wonder if things would have been easier if there had been less attributes to begin with:

 

Might: Damage, Healing & Fortitude Saves

Constitution: Health/Endurance & All Saves

Dexterity: Interrupts, Accuracy & Reflex Saves

Mind: Duration, Concentration & Will Saves

Edited February 13, 2015 by Whipstitch

[Sensuki]

I actually like Intellect as AoE and Duration. It makes the Attribute a good one! I just don't think +1 Will is justified as it imbalances the totals you can get from bumping attributes.

 

The +1 Will on Intellect is basically a "we realize Resolve is bad" admittance.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Sensuki

[Namutree]

Just give RES +3 will defense. That'll fix it.

[Sensuki]

Nah the point is that when you have a total of X points in Attribute A + Attribute B that decide your base fort, ref, will - they are supposed to be the same. I think that unified design should be kept.

[Namutree]

Nah the point is that when you have a total of X points in Attribute A + Attribute B that decide your base fort, ref, will - they are supposed to be the same. I think that unified design should be kept.

Wont that make INT way too OP. How do you propose balancing it? I mean, INT is pretty darn good already.