Apologies to Obsidian

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Dunno, never played KotOR2. Im shocked and amazed to read that developers join and quit companies based on the forum posters. Id like to read up on this phenomenon, link?

 

 

 

...Not sure if dense or arguing in bad faith...

 

 

Migration from the forum, not the company.

[Malcador]

I don't know Malc but your post just seems to me like an excuse to justify offensive or rude posting etiquette

 

And I find it strange because you don't really make rude posts or seem to get that worked up in debates so why you  would try to defend bad behavior is beyond me 

 

But yes I agree with you, a person could just ignore posts they don't want to participate in, like the important Romance thread but end of the day what you find is a certain perspective starts to permeate other threads and discussions and the overall tone of a forum gets dragged down. Now you may not believe this but I can guarantee you others have experienced it.

 

So I think a certain level of blocking or closing down toxic threads is needed. And I may be overly  critical because of my  SJ stance but the reality is  many other people obviously agree with my view ?

Hm, well offensive is a vague bar, especially these days where it seems everyone can take outrage over everything (If I find out a Obsidian employee likes Chelsea FC I am done with this company, though). Just that over the many years I've ben on forums, IRC, newsgroups I've come to just either ignore threads whose topics are uninteresting - though some times fun to joke in - and to not let writings of people bother me all that much.

 

Also, it's nice to let people be as loose as you can, so to speak. Mind you, this is for things that may be offensive but still have some value, rather than being stuff akin to "I hate them black people". Nothing comes immediately to mind as I am quite tired, but you can think up some. In that case if people are offended by others' opinions and how they colour things, they can argue it or perhaps just suck it up and deal with it.

 

This place really isn't as bad as some people seem to think it is. Even if we let promancers stay here.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Malcador

[BruceVC]

 

I don't know Malc but your post just seems to me like an excuse to justify offensive or rude posting etiquette

 

And I find it strange because you don't really make rude posts or seem to get that worked up in debates so why you  would try to defend bad behavior is beyond me 

 

But yes I agree with you, a person could just ignore posts they don't want to participate in, like the important Romance thread but end of the day what you find is a certain perspective starts to permeate other threads and discussions and the overall tone of a forum gets dragged down. Now you may not believe this but I can guarantee you others have experienced it.

 

So I think a certain level of blocking or closing down toxic threads is needed. And I may be overly  critical because of my  SJ stance but the reality is  many other people obviously agree with my view ?

 

. Even if we let promancers stay here.

 

   " Even if we let promancers stay here" 

 

 you funny 

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

This place really isn't as bad as some people seem to think it is.

 

 

Well, 97% of the time, it's not! The problem is the remaining 3%, and the fact that vaguely worded forum roles and the mod squad having people who are perfectly cool with torture as long as it happens to brown people make me extremely apathetic about reporting clearly abusive behavior.

Edited January 27, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Gfted1]

 

Dunno, never played KotOR2. Im shocked and amazed to read that developers join and quit companies based on the forum posters. Id like to read up on this phenomenon, link?

 

 

...Not sure if dense or arguing in bad faith...

 

 

Migration from the forum, not the company.

 

 

Oooooh, the forum, not the company. Got it. Still dunno, don't read that forum.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Dunno, never played KotOR2. Im shocked and amazed to read that developers join and quit companies based on the forum posters. Id like to read up on this phenomenon, link?

 

 

...Not sure if dense or arguing in bad faith...

 

 

Migration from the forum, not the company.

 

 

Oooooh, the forum, not the company. Got it. Still dunno, don't read that forum.

 

Phewww....you off the hook Gfted1...no need to feel guilty about the Obsidian Mods being responsible for developers leaving Obsidian    

[Malcador]

Well, 97% of the time, it's not! The problem is the remaining 3%, and the fact that vaguely worded forum roles and the mod squad having people who are perfectly cool with torture as long as it happens to brown people make me extremely apathetic about reporting clearly abusive behavior.

Well, that's your problem then. I highly doubt any moderators are cool with torture (seriously though, name them if you're going to throw a dart like that), some may argue that it's justified as a means to get intelligence and that is their hill to fight on. And even if they are, they may very well do their "job" regardless.

 

Except when I report promanc....errr never mind.

[Gfted1]

Phewww....you off the hook Gfted1...no need to feel guilty about the Obsidian Mods being responsible for developers leaving Obsidian 

I don't feel guilt for things I didn't participate in but yeah, bullet dodged.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Well, 97% of the time, it's not! The problem is the remaining 3%, and the fact that vaguely worded forum roles and the mod squad having people who are perfectly cool with torture as long as it happens to brown people make me extremely apathetic about reporting clearly abusive behavior.

Well, that's your problem then. I highly doubt any moderators are cool with torture (seriously though, name them if you're going to throw a dart like that), some may argue that it's justified as a means to get intelligence and that is their hill to fight on. And even if they are, they may very well do their "job" regardless.

 

 

You honestly don't see how "thinking torture is a justified means to get intelligence" logically leads to "being cool with torturing people as long as it yields intelligence"?

 

And the thing is, being okay with torture speaks of a lack of empathy on the most basic level. If a person is willing to trivialize the torture of a mentally handicapped person - a person who is not only innocent, but isn't even capable of understanding why is this happening to them - to use the footage of them crying as "leverage"*, just because the CIA pinky-swore** that torture sometimes yielded useful information, how the hell am I supposed to assume that they'll take seriously my much less grievous beef with someone who was mean to me on the Internet?

 

 

*Page 16, footnote 32.

 

** because they'd totally admit if they had violated all international human rights treaties for no particular gain, right?

Edited January 27, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Blarghagh]

Torture discussion not relevant to this topic. Settle down. If you want to discuss torture, there's a perfectly fine thread about Guantanomo information in WoT. Either way, I don't know who you're talking about (it's not a topic I follow) and I've been known to take internet stuff way too seriously so if that guy ain't you cup of tea, we've got plenty of flavors.

[Malcador]

I've not seen any be the type that think that, Gftd1's pepper spray fetish aside anyway, but things are rarely that clear. Also it is hard to determine if the person is just pulling your leg - this is a forum for games, after all, there is no need to be serious.

 

And so what if they don't have much empathy ? That's not nor should it be a requirement for a member on a forum or a moderator. Moderator is there to enforce rules and that is it, if the rules and other moderators agree something is bad then they act on it, is the job after all.

 

He or she doesn't need to feel sad or upset or whatever about it.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Not relevant to this topic. Settle down. If you want to discuss torture, there's a perfectly fine thread about Guantanomo information in WoT.

 

And, to embarrass myself even further, I even read back the original topic to make sure I wasn't misinterpreting something.

 

Turns out, I totally was! The mod in question did indeed make vaguely disapproving noises about torture on the earlier pages of the thread, and later on, he was - seems to have been, at least - only arguing about its effectiveness, a context I, as a latecomer to said thread, was deprived of. I jumped to conclusions, for which I apologize.

 

 

I still think said mod lacks even the most basic levels of empathy, though.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Well, 97% of the time, it's not! The problem is the remaining 3%, and the fact that vaguely worded forum roles and the mod squad having people who are perfectly cool with torture as long as it happens to brown people make me extremely apathetic about reporting clearly abusive behavior.

Well, that's your problem then. I highly doubt any moderators are cool with torture (seriously though, name them if you're going to throw a dart like that), some may argue that it's justified as a means to get intelligence and that is their hill to fight on. And even if they are, they may very well do their "job" regardless.

 

 

You honestly don't see how "thinking torture is a justified means to get intelligence" logically leads to "being cool with torturing people as long as it yields intelligence"?

 

And the thing is, being okay with torture speaks of a lack of empathy on the most basic level. If a person is willing to trivialize the torture of a mentally handicapped person - a person who is not only innocent, but isn't even capable of understanding why is this happening to them - to use the footage of them crying as "leverage"*, just because the CIA pinky-swore** that torture sometimes yielded useful information, how the hell am I supposed to assume that they'll take seriously my much less grievous beef with someone who was mean to me on the Internet?

 

 

*Page 16, footnote 32.

 

** because they'd totally admit if they had violated all international human rights treaties for no particular gain, right?

 

 

Just to give another view about how the advanced interrogation techniques-  AIT ( torture as you like to call it )  were used. I watched an interview around how it was implemented, the CIA didn't use AIT and then ask questions expecting it to yield the only answer, it was used to gain confirmation around information already gathered. So for example if the CIA was told that person X was a courier of Bin Laden they would use AIT just to confirm this 

 

This is important because there is a valid view that says torture doesn't provide really accurate information because people will end up telling the interrogator  anything they want to hear, the way AIT was used it did reveal information

 

And I'm not suggesting this is something that made it okay but its not correct to say it wasn't effective 

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Just to give another view about how the advanced interrogation techniques-  AIT ( torture as you like to call it )  were used. I watched an interview around how it was implemented, the CIA didn't use AIT and then ask questions expecting it to yield the only answer, it was used to gain confirmation around information already gathered. So for example if the CIA was told that person X was a courier of Bin Laden they would use AIT just to confirm this 

 

This is important because there is a valid view that says torture doesn't provide really accurate information because people will end up telling the interrogator  anything they want to hear, the way AIT was used it did reveal information

 

And I'm not suggesting this is something that made it okay but its not correct to say it wasn't effective 

 

 

 

Torture discussion not relevant to this topic. Settle down. If you want to discuss torture, there's a perfectly fine thread about Guantanomo information in WoT. Either way, I don't know who you're talking about (it's not a topic I follow) and I've been known to take internet stuff way too seriously so if that guy ain't you cup of tea, we've got plenty of flavors.

 

 

...So, you can find my reply in the thread where it belongs.

Edited January 27, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Gfted1]

...Gftd1's pepper spray fetish aside...

Is it weird that I spray it on my wife's feet and lick it?

 

 

And, to embarrass myself even further, I even read back the original topic to make sure I wasn't misinterpreting something.

 

Turns out, I totally was! The mod in question did indeed make vaguely disapproving noises about torture on the earlier pages of the thread, and later on, he was - seems to have been, at least - only arguing about its effectiveness, a context I, as a latecomer to said thread, was deprived of. I jumped to conclusions, for which I apologize.

 

 

I still think said mod lacks even the most basic levels of empathy, though.

You seem to be spewing toxic bile while not even educated on the matter. And from the very person trumpeting its wrongness. Oh irony, why you so delicious?

 

Anywho, this is all off topic at this point. Go go Obsidian!

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

You seem to be spewing toxic bile while not even educated on the matter. And from the very person trumpeting its wrongness. Oh irony, why you so delicious?

 

 

You do realize that actively taking a giant sh*t on the face of a person who admitted being wrong and publically apologized for it is a/ not reducing the amount of toxic bile present, quite the opposite, and b/ actively disincentivizes people from owning up to their mistakes and trying to make amends, even further exacerbating the toxic bile problem in the future, right?

[Nonek]

I've only got one thing to say about torture, it should remain a private matter in between a gentleman, his wife and the goat, and should not be discussed in public, only in a legitimate Soho nightclub that specialises in that sort of thing.

 

I would imagine.

 

Edit: Awful lot of fecal matter flying about tonight, I thought we were due for snow.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Nonek

[Gfted1]

You do realize that actively taking a giant sh*t on the face of a person who admitted being wrong and publically apologized for it is a/ not reducing the amount of toxic bile present, quite the opposite, and b/ actively disincentivizes people from owning up to their mistakes and trying to make amends, even further exacerbating the toxic bile problem in the future, right?

Apology accepted. I just think its ironic that the person yelling the loudest about "spewing toxic bile" was the first person to engage in it when they didn't like how the conversation was going. It could be argued that posters like that are part of the problem instead of part of the solution. Im not upset, and in fact I think youre smart as hell, Im just pointing out the obvious.

[dorkboy]

Can I just say that I really liked the couple of pages in this thread where people were rationally discussing the issues rather than the personality of whoever they were disagreeing with?

 

I can? Ok, consider it done, then. 

 

It's just so much easier to see what the actual problem is, as well as judging the merits of the arguments on both sides of the disagreement, when it doesn't get buried in a lot of "us vs them" mentality and petty insults. At least to me it is. 

[Blarghagh]

An argument could be made that the reason these people dislike these things so much is because they're get more easily angered and therefore drawn into it?

[Tale]

Phewww....you off the hook Gfted1...no need to feel guilty about the Obsidian Mods being responsible for developers leaving Obsidian 

I'll take that blame.

 

And I'll learn from it.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Apology accepted. I just think its ironic that the person yelling the loudest about "spewing toxic bile" was the first person to engage in it when they didn't like how the conversation was going. It could be argued that posters like that are part of the problem instead of part of the solution. Im not upset, and in fact I think youre smart as hell, Im just pointing out the obvious.

 

 

And this perfectly illustrates another concern, actually: namely, the standards by which we judge toxicity. I'm generally reluctant on reporting things I deem toxic and vile, because there's an entrenched subsegment of the forum population who see it as entertainment; on the other hand, I didn't see my earlier outburst as particularly toxic, because pointing out that one thinks a person holding a position of responsibility is inherently incapable of responsibly fulfilling the obligations that come with said position is seen a public service in the communities I was socialized in.

 

So yeah, blind spots arising from values dissonance is certainly a thing. Which, in hindsight, should've been obvious. Huh.

[Gfted1]

And this perfectly illustrates another concern, actually: namely, the standards by which we judge toxicity. I'm generally reluctant on reporting things I deem toxic and vile, because there's an entrenched subsegment of the forum population who see it as entertainment...

That's a shame you feel that way so let me give you a peek behind the curtain. The mods here are each assigned some forums. When a report comes in from a forum post, all mods of that forum, all global mods, and Fionavar, receive a notification. Then we meet in the mod forum and discuss the report. None of us rule in fiat and you never have to worry about being ignored. We may not agree with the report, but we do discuss it.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

An argument could be made that the reason these people dislike these things so much is because they're get more easily angered and therefore drawn into it?

 

Well, I can obviously only talk about why I dislike it, but... no. It's fairly easy to determine who are the kind of posters who have nothing of value to add to a thread, then I can put them on ignore and be done with it. My problem is that this kind of poster always manages to piss off somebody to the extent that the entire thread devolves into a screaming match, which at best clogs up rational discussion, or - and this is the more common occurance - shuts it down entirely. And I'm sure it's very funny for the outside observer who has no horse in the issue of the day and can just delight in the Grade A snark flying left and right, but for those who'd actually like to discuss the matter at hand like rational people, it's immensely frustrating.

 

 

 

I'm generally reluctant on reporting things I deem toxic and vile, because there's an entrenched subsegment of the forum population who see it as entertainment...

 

That's a shame you feel that way so let me give you a peek behind the curtain. The mods here are each assigned some forums. When a report comes in from a forum post, all mods of that forum, all global mods, and Fionavar, receive a notification. Then we meet in the mod forum and discuss the report. None of us rule in fiat and you never have to worry about being ignored. We may not agree with the report, but we do discuss it. 

 

 

Thanks for clearing that up

Edited January 27, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Leferd]

Then I apologize most profusely for the one (couple?) times I reported someone whose only crime is that I accidently pressed and confirmed the report function. I'll just own up and say that my fingers are too big for a tablet and smartphone. Thanks Obama.