TheChris92 Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 No Persona Q? U wuh -- I'd hesitate to think that VC qualifies for the list given it's a re-release of an older PS3 title on Steam and I'm also sure that XIII-2 was released at least 2 years ago... Hmm, otherwise I'd say that Shadowrun is definitely fun, along with, Q, Stick of Truth & Inquisition. Those were the only RPGs I enjoyed; Released from last year that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 ah yes, the codexian equivalent of, "i have gay friends," as a rebuttal o' homophobia .. you is also notably silent regarding antisemitism accusations. ... While this is getting way off topic it should be pointed out that probably the three most prominent moderators on the site are a Jew, a gay guy and a woman. And, sadly, while they are all members here they post a lot more there. So it's not a 'some of my best friends are x' argument, it's a 'the site is actually run by x' argument, significantly different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) ah yes, the codexian equivalent of, "i have gay friends," as a rebuttal o' homophobia .. you is also notably silent regarding antisemitism accusations. ... While this is getting way off topic it should be pointed out that probably the three most prominent moderators on the site are a Jew, a gay guy and a woman. And, sadly, while they are all members here they post a lot more there. So it's not a 'some of my best friends are x' argument, it's a 'the site is actually run by x' argument, significantly different. lord help us. your observation makes the pervasive codexian bigotry based on race, creed and sexual preference all the more disturbing. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2828425/The-Ku-Klux-Klan-opens-door-Jews-black-people-homosexuals-new-recruits-wear-white-robes-hats.html your observation is one deserving o' pity. HA! Good Fun! edit: damned fonts again. wacky. Edited January 15, 2015 by Gromnir 1 "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 I haven't really seen much homophobia other than liberal use of ****, in my time there. Lots of racist stuff in GD though, but such people seem pariahs outside of it, heh. Not that big a deal to me, if people want to advertise their bigotry, by all means they should go ahead. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) I haven't really seen much homophobia other than liberal use of ****, in my time there. Lots of racist stuff in GD though, but such people seem pariahs outside of it, heh. Not that big a deal to me, if people want to advertise their bigotry, by all means they should go ahead. am not certain what word were blocked out, but type it into the codex site search engine and then read posts linked. do same with words such as jew or fagg0t, or various black slurs. more than a few is the times such is used as more than mere inarticulate grunts. perhaps you has become indifferent given how pervasive such stuff is. unfortunate. ever see those disturbing videos o' a person being beaten, robbed or stabbed, and folks just walk past and pretend not to see what is happening right in front o' them? *shrug* codex l00ns not see a difference between being adversarial and being openly bigoted. anything o' value we could get from codex *snort* we can get elsewhere w/o the pervasive antisemitism. presence o' a jewish moderator makes us feel a little bit sad, but surely not more accepting o' the bigotry. is not worth the effort to continue this line o' debate. no doubt a couple this board's mods is current a bit conflicted as they have a certain conflict o' interest. no sense making things harder for them. HA! Good Fun! Edited January 15, 2015 by Gromnir "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
500MetricTonnes Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 As the site states, RPGCodex "Doesn't scale to your level." A certain level of vitriol and acerbic behaviour is just part of the culture. If you can look beyond it, there's some fantastic in-depth discussion of RPG mechanics to be found there. While I'm not a member of their forums, I understand perfectly the level of hate they have for BioWare. I used to post semi-regularly on the BSN back when DA2 was released, which was one of the worst games I'd ever played. It was beyond frustrating to try to express one's criticism of the game, only to be labelled a troll or to be dismissed as "Elitist! Purist! Can't accept change! Just nostalgic!" At some point you just want to point out why a certain game is rubbish without being shouted down by fanboys. 1 "There is no greatness where simplicity, goodness and truth are absent." - Leo Tolstoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leferd Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 When you get past lots of the garbage and fecal matter being bandied about, the codex can actually get pretty entertaining and there is some *occasional* good discussion being had. But before you wade in, just like the IE games, you gotta cast some pre-buffs and guzzle down plenty of potions. Be ready with a sense of humor and throw out whatever (little) SJW sensibilities you may have. I may only have a couple handful of posts going back ten years, but I lurk a bit every now and then to check up on the Hive Mind for what's kosher in vidya gaemz. They serve enough of a purpose as the evil bogeyman of rpg developers. "Things are funny...are comedic, because they mix the real with the absurd." - Buzz Aldrin."P-O-T-A-T-O-E" - Dan Quayle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) am not certain what word were blocked out, but type it into the codex site search engine and then read posts linked. do same with words such as jew or fagg0t, or various black slurs. more than a few is the times such is used as more than mere inarticulate grunts. perhaps you has become indifferent given how pervasive such stuff is. unfortunate. ever see those disturbing videos o' a person being beaten, robbed or stabbed, and folks just walk past and pretend not to see what is happening right in front o' them? *shrug* codex l00ns not see a difference between being adversarial and being openly bigoted. anything o' value we could get from codex *snort* we can get elsewhere w/o the pervasive antisemitism. presence o' a jewish moderator makes us feel a little bit sad, but surely not more accepting o' the bigotry. is not worth the effort to continue this line o' debate. no doubt a couple this board's mods is current a bit conflicted as they have a certain conflict o' interest. no sense making things harder for them. HA! Good Fun! Indifferent, no. But years of playing games online have taught me a righteous crusade on people typing mean things is a waste of time and is the intention 80% of the time. Mark the person as being of suspect contribution to things after a point and then move on. I suppose it may slide back down in background noise in a post. Hardly akin to ignoring someone being beaten or suffering any real harm. I was expecting a lot worse than I saw when I registered there, it's not an amazing forum but nowhere is and reading some posts and analysis of games (I read other than RPG forum, mainly) is sometimes interesting. Also they have some funny emoticons. I like the Inclooooo-sive one best. Edited January 15, 2015 by Malcador Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensuki Posted January 15, 2015 Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) Where does your Codex q_q come from Gromnir, every time you see the word you start spouting "oh anti-semetist, racist, homophobic pigs!" edit: Don't worry. I just remembered you were a lawyer. Edited January 15, 2015 by Sensuki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyCrimson Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Well since we're all giving opinions of the Codex ... I've never registered but I have lurked around time to time. They have some good threads/convos and I've seen some good/intelligent members, like anyplace else. But while my skin is fairly thick, it doesn't mean the general "atmosphere" or accepted style/s that I tend to see displayed there is something I personally enjoy/respect/find endlessly entertaining, so I have no desire to dive-in on a regular basis. Even just lurking there for an extended period makes me feel somehow a bit unwashed. Not worth my time, for me...not a personal fit. I can find game news/opinions elsewhere. “Things are as they are. Looking out into the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.” – Alan Watts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) am not certain what word were blocked out, but type it into the codex site search engine and then read posts linked. do same with words such as jew or fagg0t, or various black slurs. more than a few is the times such is used as more than mere inarticulate grunts. perhaps you has become indifferent given how pervasive such stuff is. unfortunate. ever see those disturbing videos o' a person being beaten, robbed or stabbed, and folks just walk past and pretend not to see what is happening right in front o' them? *shrug* codex l00ns not see a difference between being adversarial and being openly bigoted. anything o' value we could get from codex *snort* we can get elsewhere w/o the pervasive antisemitism. presence o' a jewish moderator makes us feel a little bit sad, but surely not more accepting o' the bigotry. is not worth the effort to continue this line o' debate. no doubt a couple this board's mods is current a bit conflicted as they have a certain conflict o' interest. no sense making things harder for them. HA! Good Fun! Indifferent, no. But years of playing games online have taught me a righteous crusade on people typing mean things is a waste of time and is the intention 80% of the time. Mark the person as being of suspect contribution to things after a point and then move on. I suppose it may slide back down in background noise in a post. Hardly akin to ignoring someone being beaten or suffering any real harm. I was expecting a lot worse than I saw when I registered there, it's not an amazing forum but nowhere is and reading some posts and analysis of games (I read other than RPG forum, mainly) is sometimes interesting. Also they have some funny emoticons. I like the Inclooooo-sive one best. ah. the crux of it. bigotry is not doing any "real harm," yes? is a shame. our job is to protect first amendment rights, and if we do say so our self, we is quite good at it. that being said, we is also not so blind as to ignore the harms o' bigotry. we would surely never patronize any group that fostered an environment that encouraged such. "Where does your Codex q_q come from Gromnir," HA! at least you are consistent. first you pull out the "gay friend" defense, and now we is treated to qq? is you a 13-year-old mmo nerd arguing over pvp? qq? *chuckle* is, "i know you are, but what am i," your next option? perhaps a mom joke? surely you is not scaling to our level with such nonsense. we woulds needs devolve substantially to equal such responses. codex is in even worse shape than when we last posted if this is the kinda scaling we is to now expect. tragic. HA! Good Fun! edit: does anybody know why posts might auto-change fonts? is annoying. Edited January 15, 2015 by Gromnir 1 "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensuki Posted January 15, 2015 Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 Oh my poor delicate sensibilities. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PK htiw klaw eriF Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Perhaps it's cuz I lurk on the chans, but the codex seems rather mild to me. *shrug* 1 "Akiva Goldsman and Alex Kurtzman run the 21st century version of MK ULTRA." - majestic "you're a damned filthy lying robot and you deserve to die and burn in hell." - Bartimaeus "Without individual thinking you can't notice the plot holes." - InsaneCommander "Just feed off the suffering of gamers." - Malcador "You are calling my taste crap." -Hurlshort "thankfully it seems like the creators like Hungary less this time around." - Sarex "Don't forget the wakame, dumbass" -Keyrock "Are you trolling or just being inadvertently nonsensical?' -Pidesco "we have already been forced to admit you are at least human" - uuuhhii "I refuse to buy from non-woke businesses" - HoonDing "feral camels are now considered a pest" - Gorth "Melkathi is known to be an overly critical grumpy person" - Melkathi "Oddly enough Sanderson was a lot more direct despite being a Mormon" - Zoraptor "I found it greatly disturbing to scroll through my cartoon's halfing selection of genitalias." - Wormerine "I love cheese despite the pain and carnage." - ShadySands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 am not certain what word were blocked out, but type it into the codex site search engine and then read posts linked. do same with words such as jew or fagg0t, or various black slurs. more than a few is the times such is used as more than mere inarticulate grunts. perhaps you has become indifferent given how pervasive such stuff is. unfortunate. ever see those disturbing videos o' a person being beaten, robbed or stabbed, and folks just walk past and pretend not to see what is happening right in front o' them? *shrug* codex l00ns not see a difference between being adversarial and being openly bigoted. anything o' value we could get from codex *snort* we can get elsewhere w/o the pervasive antisemitism. presence o' a jewish moderator makes us feel a little bit sad, but surely not more accepting o' the bigotry. is not worth the effort to continue this line o' debate. no doubt a couple this board's mods is current a bit conflicted as they have a certain conflict o' interest. no sense making things harder for them. HA! Good Fun! Indifferent, no. But years of playing games online have taught me a righteous crusade on people typing mean things is a waste of time and is the intention 80% of the time. Mark the person as being of suspect contribution to things after a point and then move on. I suppose it may slide back down in background noise in a post. Hardly akin to ignoring someone being beaten or suffering any real harm. I was expecting a lot worse than I saw when I registered there, it's not an amazing forum but nowhere is and reading some posts and analysis of games (I read other than RPG forum, mainly) is sometimes interesting. Also they have some funny emoticons. I like the Inclooooo-sive one best. ah. the crux of it. bigotry is not doing any "real harm," yes? is a shame. our job is to protect first amendment rights, and if we do say so our self, we is quite good at it. that being said, we is also not so blind as to ignore the harms o' bigotry. we would surely never patronize any group that fostered an environment that encouraged such. "Where does your Codex q_q come from Gromnir," HA! at least you are consistent. first you pull out the "gay friend" defense, and now we is treated to qq? is you a 13-year-old mmo nerd arguing over pvp? qq? *chuckle* is, "i know you are, but what am i," your next option? perhaps a mom joke? surely you is not scaling to our level with such nonsense. we woulds needs devolve substantially to equal such responses. codex is in even worse shape than when we last posted if this is the kinda scaling we is to now expect. tragic. HA! Good Fun! edit: does anybody know why posts might auto-change fonts? is annoying. I also find it funny when bigots try to hide their views when they say things like " hey...you cant call me a racist\homophobic.... I have gay or black friends " I understand the support the Codex receives, apart from the fact it does have some interesting articles, objective reviews and highly informed and old-school gamers I think it has also symbolically become "the last place on the Internet free from SJ influence ". So people are fanatically loyal to its "moderator- free policies ". In some ways with all these understandable changes that have been sweeping the Internet the last few years where people have learnt to become politically correct it has become a bastion for those who don't want to care what they say. Its misplaced IMO, because you can still have a highly informed and relevant gaming website without offending people or being derogatory.I remember what put me off RPCodex, it was during the Zoe Quinn incident in the beginning and I went to the Codex to read some views and there were several comments similar to " I know what will sort her out ....a good raping " I'm sorry but for me I can't justify participating on a website where people are allowed to use rape as joke and not get warned by moderators I do have a question for those who are regulars on the Codex, has anyone ever seriously tried to implement proper moderation on the forums and explained why they are doing it ? "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Perhaps it's cuz I lurk on the chans, but the codex seems rather mild to me. *shrug* I appreciate your honesty but yes you obviously "can't see the wood for the trees " if you think the some of the comments on the Codex are normal and acceptable "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PK htiw klaw eriF Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Perhaps it's cuz I lurk on the chans, but the codex seems rather mild to me. *shrug* I appreciate your honesty but yes you obviously "can't see the wood for the trees " if you think the some of the comments on the Codex are normal and acceptable I didn't say they were acceptable or normal Bruce. Please refrain from putting words in my mouth. "Akiva Goldsman and Alex Kurtzman run the 21st century version of MK ULTRA." - majestic "you're a damned filthy lying robot and you deserve to die and burn in hell." - Bartimaeus "Without individual thinking you can't notice the plot holes." - InsaneCommander "Just feed off the suffering of gamers." - Malcador "You are calling my taste crap." -Hurlshort "thankfully it seems like the creators like Hungary less this time around." - Sarex "Don't forget the wakame, dumbass" -Keyrock "Are you trolling or just being inadvertently nonsensical?' -Pidesco "we have already been forced to admit you are at least human" - uuuhhii "I refuse to buy from non-woke businesses" - HoonDing "feral camels are now considered a pest" - Gorth "Melkathi is known to be an overly critical grumpy person" - Melkathi "Oddly enough Sanderson was a lot more direct despite being a Mormon" - Zoraptor "I found it greatly disturbing to scroll through my cartoon's halfing selection of genitalias." - Wormerine "I love cheese despite the pain and carnage." - ShadySands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Perhaps it's cuz I lurk on the chans, but the codex seems rather mild to me. *shrug* I appreciate your honesty but yes you obviously "can't see the wood for the trees " if you think the some of the comments on the Codex are normal and acceptable I didn't say they were acceptable or normal Bruce. Please refrain from putting words in my mouth. Didn't mean to put you on the spot KP, but the truth most people would only find certain insults " mild " because they are not the victims of a particular verbal attack or they don't belong to a certain demographic so its much harder to relate to a particular invective if you aren't personally targeted So I assume you aren't a gay, african-american jew? Therefore you may think some of the comments are "mild" ....but you aren't on the receiving end. "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PK htiw klaw eriF Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 So I assume you aren't a gay, african-american jew? Therefore you may think some of the comments are "mild" ....but you aren't on the receiving end. You'd be half wrong on the Jew part Bruce. I consider them mild because it's essentially teenagers doing a tough guy routine doing the internet. Getting offended over that sort of behavior is silly. 1 "Akiva Goldsman and Alex Kurtzman run the 21st century version of MK ULTRA." - majestic "you're a damned filthy lying robot and you deserve to die and burn in hell." - Bartimaeus "Without individual thinking you can't notice the plot holes." - InsaneCommander "Just feed off the suffering of gamers." - Malcador "You are calling my taste crap." -Hurlshort "thankfully it seems like the creators like Hungary less this time around." - Sarex "Don't forget the wakame, dumbass" -Keyrock "Are you trolling or just being inadvertently nonsensical?' -Pidesco "we have already been forced to admit you are at least human" - uuuhhii "I refuse to buy from non-woke businesses" - HoonDing "feral camels are now considered a pest" - Gorth "Melkathi is known to be an overly critical grumpy person" - Melkathi "Oddly enough Sanderson was a lot more direct despite being a Mormon" - Zoraptor "I found it greatly disturbing to scroll through my cartoon's halfing selection of genitalias." - Wormerine "I love cheese despite the pain and carnage." - ShadySands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 is having bruce on our side a good thing? *shrug* Gromnir is actual pretty thick-skinned when it comes to race/culture humor and parody. you weren't gonna find us protesting over johnny depp's tonto portrayal. we has laughed at over-the-top homosexual characters in movies without the least feeling o' guilt. nevertheless, when bigotry becomes overt and intentional cruel, we do not believe it should be indulged or ignored. pretending that bigotry is no big deal or is only immature, or isn't "too bad" is a terrible pov. antisemitism, racism, misogyny, homophobia is not the fault o' the listener for their failure to toughen-up. we ain't jewish. we ain't a woman. we ain't a homosexual, or black or arab or any o' the other groups that is frequently targeted at codex. heterosexual, male, native american, catholic lawyers is such a small demographic group that we suspect we will never personal face anything but the most accidental and stoopid codexian bigotry imagined. admitted, the codexian retorts we faced in this thread were pretty darn stoopid, so perhaps we is overly optimistic. regardless, our contempt for codex is not personal, but it is genuine. foster and/or condone an environment o' overt bigotry? how can anybody suggest that such a thing is okie dokie? HA! Good Fun! 1 "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miquel93 Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 I do have a question for those who are regulars on the Codex, has anyone ever seriously tried to implement proper moderation on the forums and explained why they are doing it ? Why would they want to do that? One of the fundations of the Codex is that lax of moderation. If your sensibilities can't take it, then don't read it, simple as that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barothmuk Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Codex is ****. Was fine years ago when it was just basement dwelling neckbeards hating Bioware and wanking over the same few I.E games. Nowadays they're just closet Bioware fans who are more invested in whining about the SJ boogeyman and trying to emulate the /v/ subculture. Most probably haven't even played more than the first few hours of Planescape or Fallout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensuki Posted January 15, 2015 Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) our contempt for codex is not personal, but it is genuine. I dunno, sounds pretty personal to me. But then again, I'm stoopid. Edited January 15, 2015 by Sensuki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 our contempt for codex is not personal, but it is genuine. I dunno, sounds pretty personal to me. But then again, I'm stoopid. maybe you is just too sensitive. ah, poor n00b gonna qq 'cause we says bad things 'bout codex? and your mother is sooo ugly that... *snort* HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensuki Posted January 15, 2015 Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 Isn't that what you do every time someone mentions the codex? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 I do have a question for those who are regulars on the Codex, has anyone ever seriously tried to implement proper moderation on the forums and explained why they are doing it ? Why would they want to do that? One of the fundations of the Codex is that lax of moderation. If your sensibilities can't take it, then don't read it, simple as that. 100 % I get that and thats why I don't frequent Codex, But we always seem to talk about the lack of moderation so I'm just interested in the Codex's history if anyone who runs the website has tried to implement moderation? Because surely it must have come up where people say " okay its time we tried to enforce certain standards" I may be completely wrong and maybe it has never been raised ? "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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