To the Development Team

[Luckmann]

OP may be correct in that the posts on hte Obsidian Forums aren't truly representative of the majority of the Kickstarter backers of the game.
 
What the members of the forum is representative of though, is the people that take an active interest in the quality of Pillars of Eternity and wants to help it become as good as it can possibly be.

This is what always annoyed me quite a lot about the "X does not truly represent Y" argument; it doesn't matter. The members of the forum isn't here to represent the Kickstarter backers. We're not here to fulfill some obligation or do a job. I'm not even a Backer. We're here because we're interested and want to take a look at the game, poke it, argue over it, and give feedback on just about everything.
 
The "silent majority" doesn't matter, because they choose to not matter. For the longest time, I was out of the loop, but I'd never go back to one of the old threads, dig it up, and say that someone's argument misrepresented me, because I, as part of the then-silent majority, don't have a say, nor was it their intent or job to represent me.

And this is completely beside the point that the number of people for this or that matters even less. Arguments do. And "10 people want this!" or "It is conceivably possible that some amount of people want this or that" aren't actual arguments, they're literally fallacies.
 
So not only is it argumentum ad populum, it is argumentum ad populum ad ignorantiam; not only does it assert that an argument is correct because a lot of people support it (or oppose it) but it's impossible to assert whether someone does or doesn't, because for the sake of the argument, they don't exist.
 

[...]

You know what else is helpful? I mean, really, REALLY helpful? Letting the devs/designers know when and where they're doing well. Devs/designers very rarely get positive feedback because users tend to ignore everything that's working and throw hissy fits about everything that's not (or doesn't fit their expectations, or whatever). Getting positive feedback is enormously important for morale. If a dev gets heartfelt thanks from a user once, it'll keep him cheerfully splatting bugs and fixing design mistakes for a week.

[...]

This is an issue that is generally true in practically all fields. But it makes sense. As long as things are working as intended, there is no reason to bring it up. However, it can also lead to a false perception of how things are, because of the assumption that if there's no comments on it, it works like it should.

The Chanter thread that popped up recently is a good example. The Chanter wasn't really getting any truly meaningful feedback because the Chanter works very well. Compare the Chanter discussion to the Ranger discussion.

But at the same time, this assumption leads to certain aspects not being examined. I think the Paladin suffers a bit from a lack of options in combat and per level, and the Priest even has "dead" levels where he gets nothing but Skill Points and - yes - a bucketload of spells, but the fact that there's no input from the player on level gain (possibly zero, in case he needs to hoard his skill points) is problematic.

So it's a good point that we shouldn't just focus on the big problems, we should also examine those things that work, but could work much better. The stuff that gets forgotten because it's not a cheese-grater in the face like the Combat-Only Abilities.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Luckmann

[PrimeJunta]

@Sensuki in re the counterspells: yep, my stance has shifted on them.

 

However, I still think the hard counters like Protection from Petrification, Chaotic Commands, Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, Remove Paralysis, Negative Plane Protection etc are kind of derp.

 

Put another way, I love it when you're able to counter a spell with another spell, but I think spells designed specifically as counters are unimaginative. I would much rather have the counters rolled into spells that did something in their own right. Using a Dire Charm or Dominate to counter an enemy's Dire Charm is way cooler than using Dispel Magic to do the same, or Chaotic Commands to stop the spell from biting in the first place.

 

If I was designing a DnD-ish spell system, I would have every spell counter one or more other spells as a secondary effect, but have no dedicated counters. For example:

 

Sonic Burst - dispels Silence (also add low-level, low-damage Sonic spells)

Silence - absorbs damage from Sonic Burst and other sonic attacks (but is dispelled by it) 

Various Charm spells - counter the same

Owl's Wisdom - counters Confusion

Expeditious Retreat and Haste - counters Hold Person, Slow, and Web (plus I'd add some other movement-enhancing spells between the two)

Bless, Chant, Prayer, Recitation - also "soft counter" the stuff Death Ward hard counters

 

... and so on.

 

Apart from Dispel Magic which does make sense, I don't like having to memorize spells that are only counters.

[Sensuki]

Some of those need to be like that because of the nature of the status effects.

 

This is a good way to handle Petrification

 

 

(and while those specific mechanics (facing, magic immunity) would probably not suit PE, the delayed turn-to-stone with a beforehand complete slow sounds apt.)

 

So far we've only been Petrified by Crystal Eaters and it was from a melee attack ... which doesn't make sense.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Sensuki

[Luckmann]

@Sensuki in re the counterspells: yep, my stance has shifted on them.

 

However, I still think the hard counters like Protection from Petrification, Chaotic Commands, Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, Remove Paralysis, Negative Plane Protection etc are kind of derp.

 

Put another way, I love it when you're able to counter a spell with another spell, but I think spells designed specifically as counters are unimaginative. I would much rather have the counters rolled into spells that did something in their own right. Using a Dire Charm or Dominate to counter an enemy's Dire Charm is way cooler than using Dispel Magic to do the same, or Chaotic Commands to stop the spell from biting in the first place.

 

If I was designing a DnD-ish spell system, I would have every spell counter one or more other spells as a secondary effect, but have no dedicated counters. For example:

 

Sonic Burst - dispels Silence (also add low-level, low-damage Sonic spells)

Silence - absorbs damage from Sonic Burst and other sonic attacks (but is dispelled by it) 

Various Charm spells - counter the same

Owl's Wisdom - counters Confusion

Expeditious Retreat and Haste - counters Hold Person, Slow, and Web (plus I'd add some other movement-enhancing spells between the two)

Bless, Chant, Prayer, Recitation - also "soft counter" the stuff Death Ward hard counters

 

... and so on.

 

Apart from Dispel Magic which does make sense, I don't like having to memorize spells that are only counters.

 

Immunities and Blanket-use: Boring.

 

Counters: Fun.

 

 

Generally speaking.

 

Edited January 8, 2015 by Luckmann

[Sensuki]

I don't think there's anything wrong with immunities. They're also very easy to understand and a concept that most gamers are familiar with I think (contrary to popular belief) especially when conveyed properly to the player ... like in Diablo 2.

 

They went a bit overboard in this game over what was essentially just a User Interface problem in the IE games.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Sensuki

[prodigydancer]

@PrimeJunta

 

Your suggestions are intriguing but as it stands now, Wizard in PoE doesn't have any counters except Arcane Dampener and Arcane Reflection. Neither is particularly interesting or creative.

 

I'll rather have bland utility spells than no utility at all.

[PrimeJunta]

Which status effects did you have in mind?

 

Petrification? Don't care for that solution; IMO it should be permanent-unti-dispelled. The way I'd do it, the process takes, say, 2-4 rounds and can be countered in the meantime by a number of spells (say, selected blessings plus any movement-enhancing spells) before it's complete. Once complete, you'd need a trip to a temple to de-petrify.

 

Alternatively, think of other uses for Stone to Flesh. In NetHack, you can use it to turn rocks into meatballs and boulders into huge lumps of meat, which is highly useful for a wizard in the early to mid-game. You'd have to think of other uses for meatballs in a DnD game.

[Luckmann]

[...]

 

Alternatively, think of other uses for Stone to Flesh. In NetHack, you can use it to turn rocks into meatballs and boulders into huge lumps of meat, which is highly useful for a wizard in the early to mid-game. You'd have to think of other uses for meatballs in a DnD game.

 

...so many roleplaying ideas that no CRPG will ever accomodate comes to mind...

 

 

The floor is now meatloaf.

 

 

 

Your sling-bullets are now meatballs.

 

 

 

I summon rats to eat the supporting meatpillars, bringing down the castle.

 

[prodigydancer]

That would be deliciously overpowered.

[PrimeJunta]

Haha cool. Could also be used as a Passwall substitute. Changes a section of wall into meat, and then all you have to do is eat your way through it...

[IndiraLightfoot]

Guys, I've been trying to post a topic for like a half an hour. It simply refuses to work. Anybody else's having this problem? What gives?

[Nakia]

Hokay, I was going to retire from the fray but here I go again.  77,000 people backed this game and made it possible everyone of those people has a right to voice an opinion.  In fact anyone who wishes to has a right to voice an opinion.   Others have a right to disagree and personal attacks are against the rules.  Disagreement can be healthy.  If you claim the right to disagree with what the game developers have done you should allow others to disagree with you.

 

If I want to play an all powerful wizard/mage I can go back an play Oblivion,   I just think there are more important things for the developers to concentrate on, combat mechanics for one, making sure that spells actually work the way they should and we have a dedicated BB bug forum to report those.  Where the developers can easily see them and therefore check them out.  

 

I disagree with the statement that the wizard even the BB wizard sucks, may be a bit boring but is still pretty good at dealing out damage and other spells.    My opinion of what the wizard and the priest need most of all is freedom of movement.

 

This actually off topic from the OP which deals with the negative posts and I am not referring to those made by people actually trying to improve the game but are often based on what a poster has seen reported.  

 

Maybe the smartest people are the ones who are simply waiting for the game to be released, trusting Obsidian to do a good job.    Those who have reported bugs and given positive* criticism have made a big contribution and I applaud them. 

 

*positive criticism can be negative given in a positive way.

[Sensuki]

Guys, I've been trying to post a topic for like a half an hour. It simply refuses to work. Anybody else's having this problem? What gives?

Try using Code Mode. Normal mode appears to be broken on the forum (and has been for like 9 months, for me).

 

If I want to play an all powerful wizard/mage I can go back an play Oblivion

More like, you can play Baldur's Gate 2.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Sensuki

[IndiraLightfoot]

Sensuki: Thx for the tip. I just tried code mode. No go. I checked if something was weird with my connection, files coming in or out speedwise, nothing. Everything seems to be fine.

[Hassat Hunter]

Also want to point out a lot of us "silent minority" even if we WANT to give feedback, can't... due to paid beta.

So just putting us all outside cause we simply don't have the same income as you to spend is HIGHLY insulting, just saying...

 

EDIT:

As for the "positive attitude can improve teamspirirt" mentioned last page, I can attest to that too... did a lot of work for an online-RPG, only got complains, fed up and left... on the other side TSLRCM, what now, 5 years? And still I work with joy on that whenever I feel like it.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Hassat Hunter

[Nakia]

If I want to play an all powerful wizard/mage I can go back an play Oblivion

More like, you can play Baldur's Gate 2.

 

 I disagree my Breton mage born under the lady's star was so powerful at level 12 which is not a high level in Oblivion that I had go in and use the console to bring down her stats and that was playing at highest difficulty.  

 

Oh bosh messed up the quote again.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Nakia

[prodigydancer]

If I want to play an all powerful wizard/mage I can go back an play Oblivion

Let's not bring first-person real-time ARPGs into this, alright?

[ruzen]

I read two arguments but there is one that must be heard of. Since most of us backed (founded) this project I think we could say some thing or two. Very few (Quest, NPC writers) of us has saying what goes on the game but I though the purpose of this backer beta is to cut from QA team and save for somewhere else. Obsidian making their own game with their vision and none major things have changed. For ex. The rules of engagement still stays the same. Obsidian is very lucky to have some dedicated members of communuty putting the efford to test for feedback. 

 

One personal note I backed this project because of Tim Cain. I think he made and participate in lots of bold RPG. I hoped to see his toughts aswell in this forum. 

[Sensuki]

I disagree my Breton mage born under the lady's star was so powerful at level 12 which is not a high level in Oblivion that I had go in and use the console to bring down her stats and that was playing at highest difficulty.

That says something about the game, moreso than the class design itself. Ever watched a BG2 Solo Sorcerer run or something ?

[Nakia]

 

I disagree my Breton mage born under the lady's star was so powerful at level 12 which is not a high level in Oblivion that I had go in and use the console to bring down her stats and that was playing at highest difficulty.

That says something about the game, moreso than the class design itself. Ever watched a BG2 Solo Sorcerer run or something ?

 

No, I loved the possible party members so much I never tried solos,  Favorites - Edwin, Korgan, Viconia and with ToB Sarevok although I usually included the turnip gnome Jan.  

As for design the less said about Oblivion here the better.  Sorry I brought it up.

[PrimeJunta]

As for the "positive attitude can improve teamspirirt" mentioned last page, I can attest to that too... did a lot of work for an online-RPG, only got complains, fed up and left... on the other side TSLRCM, what now, 5 years? And still I work with joy on that whenever I feel like it.

 

TSLRCM is bloody brilliant. I just played through it last year. And I feel like a cad for not complimenting you on it before.

[Luckmann]

Also want to point out a lot of us "silent minority" even if we WANT to give feedback, can't... due to paid beta.

So just putting us all outside cause we simply don't have the same income as you to spend is HIGHLY insulting, just saying...

 

EDIT:

As for the "positive attitude can improve teamspirirt" mentioned last page, I can attest to that too... did a lot of work for an online-RPG, only got complains, fed up and left... on the other side TSLRCM, what now, 5 years? And still I work with joy on that whenever I feel like it.

 

Literally no-one said that. As someone that hasn't even been able to be a backer, I can emphasize, but the point isn't that exclusiveness is good, but rather that those that do not participate in the discussions cannot be expected to be given a voice by proxy, and using the silent majority as an argument, without even knowing whether or not any part of that silent majority supports that argument or not, is not a valid argument. It is not one, but two argumentative fallacies at once.

 

By all means, argue over what you know of the game to the best of your ability, no-one is stopping you. But if you are part of that silent majority, you should actually be more than a little annoyed that someone is using you as a bat on issues you may not even know anything about.

 

I certainly voiced a positive support towards the Engagement System at first, and the fact that I hadn't played the beta didn't make the concept unappealing to me. Even now when I have borrowed a beta, I am positive to the concept just not the current implementation.

 

Being silent is a choice, but when someone uses that voice because you don't, that's nothing short of force.

[Sensuki]

Luckily for me back when the KS ran, the AUD was over parity with the USD. Now it's like .8 :/

Edited January 8, 2015 by Sensuki

[Hassat Hunter]

People were saying that it was simply our CHOICE not to join in the Beta-discussions.

I simply came to tell that no, that's not our *choice*, it's because we simply cannot, not having access to said beta.

[Sensuki]

Well to be fair, even if you couldn't afford the beta to begin with, you have been able to purchase it since late July I think. Even now, you can still do it as a standard backer.