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rf5111918

To the Development Team

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I agree with PJ, who is to decide what are the best suggestions?    Aha, maybe I should, I'sm smart, well education, have a lot of varied life experience, have played a variety of games.   :devil:   

 

It is simply impossible to make everyone completely happy.  The devs have to prioritize things.  Bugs need to be fixed.  I doubt at this point any major changes are going to be made.


 I have but one enemy: myself  - Drow saying


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@rf5111918 I haven't read through others' replies to your post so some of this may already have been addressed, but there are some problems with what you've said here. First of all, you're right in a general sense that those who are satisfied are less likely to speak up than those that aren't. That's a pretty basic point which doesn't really need to be said as the devs are surely aware of this likelihood, not that you saying it really hurts anything. The mistake you've made, though, is assuming that you are a member of a silent majority that is satisfied with the game simply because a majority are silent. The fact that the dissatisfied will speak up doesn't prove that everyone that hasn't said anything will be happy with the final product.

 

I imagine, by the way, that most people will be satisfied, but the fact that they are now silent doesn't indicate this. I would guess that a strong majority of backers simply don't check the details of progress enough to know how satisfied they will eventually be when the game is released. To be fair, there are plenty of people that stop by the forums both to say what you've said here, and also to say just the opposite: that they've only just discovered X or Y about PoE and they're quite unhappy about it. Most of the silent majority is likely silent because they're not following the development closely enough to know or care whether or not they have any particular problems with the game.

 

The main issue with what you've said is your suggestion that those who are in some way dissatisfied with the game are people with too much free time whose opinions are rubbish. You don't know anything about these people's lives, and if they're taking time out of their busy (or not so busy) schedules to attempt to make this game better, then you should be thanking them rather than insulting them. Criticism and intense scrutiny can be a great boon to the quality of the final product. Having someone (or, better yet, many someones) pointing out all the potential mistakes in something while there's still time to correct them will almost certainly be a huge help to the project. I'm not sure what downside even exists to this. I'm not worried that the devs' feelings are going to get hurt or that they're going to sacrifice good parts of their vision due to backer feedback because I have a bit more confidence in their self-confidence as experienced game developers.

 

To put it simply, the criticism likely helps a great deal. The occasional personal insult or accusation directed at the devs can be brushed off as easily as those that spend their time trying to help improve the game can brush off the implications you've made about them in your post. The scrutiny and suggestions will give the devs new ideas and make them examine their design more closely than they otherwise would have. So, I'm very grateful to the devs for making what looks like it's going to be an awesome game, and I'm also thankful to the people here that spend a great deal of (unpaid) time attempting to encourage improvements to the game.

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"Forsooth, methinks you are no ordinary talking chicken!"

-Protagonist, Baldur's Gate

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If you believe a complaint like that is going to contribute to a better game, you're mistaken. In fact it's more likely to do the opposite.

my post is not supposed to give specific suggestions since these forums are full of those.

 

And better they get these messages now than a ****storm after release.

We all want the best game we can get, I just believe what is shown so far is not that game.

 

I seen plenty of devs act like everything is OK and only a "few" people are unsatisfied while their house is burning around them.

 

Check out latest Jagged Alliance game for a example where devs live in a different world than the rest of us.

 

This must not happen to PoE. Devs need to have a clear mindset where all they did is not good enough and can be better or more or this game has no chance to achieve greatness except as a fluke.

Edited by archangel979

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I seen plenty of devs act like everything is OK and only a "few" people are unsatisfied while their house is burning around them.

You know why that is, @archangel?

 

It's because humans have these psychological mechanisms called "ego defenses." They keep us sane. If we let everything anyone ever says to us get to us, we would commit suicide in, like, 30 minutes flat (15 if you're on a gaming forum).

 

One of the most common ego defenses is simply to flat-out reject -- ignore, not process -- things that would hurt you.

 

That is why complaints like yours get ignored. They're phrased in such a way that it's way, way easier for the dev/designer to dismiss it as the whiny ramblings of an isolated, entitled malcontent. The actual effect of your feedback is (1) to lower morale in the dev team and (2) to make them ignore you and what you're saying. In other words: if it gets noticed at all, it will make the game worse, not better.

 

Compare this to, what, say, Sensuki has been doing. He shares most of your criciticisms of P:E. He, however, has worked hard to make his feedback as helpful as possible, and as emotionally neutral as possible. As a result, he has an open communication line with the devs, and a lot -- really, a LOT -- of his suggestions have made it into the game. Not as much as he or, no doubt, you would like, but nevertheless a lot, and the game is undoubtedly the better for it.

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I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com

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And Sensuki's suggestions are often ignored as well, even when lots of people agree with them. They implemented some changes earlier on mostly about UI and ignored most of others.

 

I cannot give his level of suggestions as I don't have access to beta, I can only tell the devs the expectations of IE fans and what kind of ****storm awaits them once the game is released unless they can achieve the excellence they promised (probably a mistake by them) in their KS pitch.

To see how it looks check out the mentioned Jagged Alliance that also had a KS and failed to deliver.

 

And I can certainly put a voice of reason into this something-licking topic. Because these forums (or Steam forums) are not going to look like this topic once the game is released if gameplay is not improved.

 

Not to mention that PoE is on few lists for most expected game of 2015. The bigger the expectation, the bigger the disappointment.

Edited by archangel979

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It doesn't matter.

 

The simple fact is that complaints like yours will get ignored for basic psychological reasons. If you actually want to make a difference, learn to frame your criticisms in a way that is more likely to get heard.

 

(I've had a good many of my suggestions appear in the BB as well, by the way. Don't know if they actually were originally from me, or if we just thought on parallel lines. Also, I dig engagement. devil.gif )

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I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com

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Well for one thing Black Isle wasn't making Baldur's Gate thinking "I bet people will still talk about this game in 17 years and use it as a bench mark on other games!" They were just trying to make a good game.  Second, those games are only so well liked because of nostalgia goggles and the fact that no one ever went back and tried to make games like that again. I hate to suggest this, but there is probably a reason for that too.  That said, there really is no other game to compare Eternity to because it is a "IE" style game. 

 

You could compare it to something more recent like Drakengard but I suspect most of the forum has never heard of those games and it is fairly unlikely they played them.  There is Dragon Age: Origins but oh god that's Bioware and they make the worst games ever don't they?  Personally I would rather play NWN2 again than any of the original IE games because it doesn't boil down to retarded hard counters, kill the wizard, and RNG half so much but nah NWN2 sucks too doesn't it?  Not sure why but it does.

Also there is the last bit.  When your feedback is only "This game sucks because this other game is better" you basically just said "I don't like your game, no reason why".  They aren't making BG2, they never were.  If you want to play BG2 I suggest you go play BG2 not try to demand Eternity get turned into BG2 with a newer paint job because that is not going to happen.

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It will matter to OE if they ever want to do another KS. But since they said they don't want another KS I guess they have decided from before to piss off their backers. But it will also reflect on their Steam score if they do (and as result on their sales).

 

The promised too much on KS, and now they need to walk the walk and not just talk the talk.

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It will matter to OE if they ever want to do another KS. But since they said they don't want another KS I guess they have decided from before to piss off their backers. But it will also reflect on their Steam score if they do (and as result on their sales).

 

The promised too much on KS, and now they need to walk the walk and not just talk the talk.

They did not promise too much, your reading comprehension and nostalgia goggles failed you too much.  Their next kickstarter will be plenty successful.

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Well for one thing Black Isle wasn't making Baldur's Gate thinking "I bet people will still talk about this game in 17 years and use it as a bench mark on other games!" They were just trying to make a good game.  Second, those games are only so well liked because of nostalgia goggles and the fact that no one ever went back and tried to make games like that again. I hate to suggest this, but there is probably a reason for that too.  That said, there really is no other game to compare Eternity to because it is a "IE" style game. 

 

You could compare it to something more recent like Drakengard but I suspect most of the forum has never heard of those games and it is fairly unlikely they played them.  There is Dragon Age: Origins but oh god that's Bioware and they make the worst games ever don't they?  Personally I would rather play NWN2 again than any of the original IE games because it doesn't boil down to retarded hard counters, kill the wizard, and RNG half so much but nah NWN2 sucks too doesn't it?  Not sure why but it does.

 

Also there is the last bit.  When your feedback is only "This game sucks because this other game is better" you basically just said "I don't like your game, no reason why".  They aren't making BG2, they never were.  If you want to play BG2 I suggest you go play BG2 not try to demand Eternity get turned into BG2 with a newer paint job because that is not going to happen.

As I said, they promised one thing on KS and they need to deliver it now. Not amount of apologists like you are going to change that or save them from pissed off fans.

 

And I think you are on a wrong forum. The successor for NWN2 forums is .. oh yea. There is NONE! I wonder why... LOL

Edited by archangel979

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As I said, they promised one thing on KS and they need to deliver it now. Not amount of apologists like you are going to change that or save them from pissed off fans.

You need to re read my post right above your last one again.  It deals with the so called promises they made very aptly.

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I didn't like DA:O for a number of reasons. Some of the more important ones:

  • Companion approval + romance as minigame.
  • Cooldown-based magic system. -> Spammy. (Some of the spell synergies were cool though.)
  • Aggro-based mechanics. Lazy, lazy approach to "tactics."
  • Hitpoint bloat and filler combat. This is one area in which most of the IE games are SOOOO much better -- challenging without just resorting to piling on mountains of HP.
  • Cheesy set-piece encounters, especially the random ones where you materialize in a constricted map surrounded by traps and bandits.
  • Lots and lots of hurlocks, genlocks, hurlock emissaries, MORE genlocks, and you know what, hurlocks.
  • Generally shallow writing that just mindlessly regurgitates tropes rather than doing something original or even something interesting with said tropes.

It did have some redeeming qualities -- the origin stories were good, especially the dwarf noble one, there were genuine choices and consequences, some of the setpieces were genuinely challenging, e.g. keeping everybody alive in Redcliff was not a doddle and was fun, the world was big and varied and there was a lot to explore, and things were, generally speaking, well anchored in the world's lore, which was also well-developed and coherent even if not terribly original.

 

Still, for me it's squarely in the "forgettable" category.

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I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com

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DA:O had pretty good C&C, didn't really like anything else about it though.

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As I said, they promised one thing on KS and they need to deliver it now. Not amount of apologists like you are going to change that or save them from pissed off fans.

You need to re read my post right above your last one again.  It deals with the so called promises they made very aptly.

 

Only in Karakov world it does. Meanwhile in the real world...

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As I said, they promised one thing on KS and they need to deliver it now. Not amount of apologists like you are going to change that or save them from pissed off fans.

 

 

If I ever learned one thing from reading gaming forums (this one and others alike) then that would be that this is impossible to do anyway.

There's always those who feel personally betrayed(!) when something vague doesn't live up to imagined expectations.

Huh, just like now.

 

What are these things OE have to address so desperatley to prevent the internet from blowing up in their face anyway? Balancing, combat pacing, bugs? No question there, but these are being taken care of already if possible. What promise is objectively being broken here?

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Read the forums back a few weeks and months and it will be clear. I have been active here from the summer and many things have not been improved enough in that time. I hope their planned improvements come faster in these last two months or so.

 

And while they cannot please everyone they should be sure who they want to piss off. Do they want to piss off IE fans or those that enjoyed NWN or DAO more.

Edited by archangel979

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I have recently listened to the video made for the start of the Kickstarter and also a few others as the KS progressed and right after it ended.  OE is delivering on what they promised.  They have also responded to the backers.  They responded during the KS and they have responded since them.   Anyone actually reading the threads in the BB forum will find that a true statement.

 

There are millions of game players and each one has his or her own idea of the perfect game.   There are also millions of games.  I have played arcade games and enjoyed them, short mystery games and enjoyed them. city builders, adventure games,.

 

Developers even for a niche game like PoE have a broad audience to please and you know what happens if you try to please everyone?  Are you familiar with the 5th century fable of the farmer, his on and their mule (sometimes portrayed as a donkey)?

 

If you try to please everyone

 

you end up losing your ass

 

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 I have but one enemy: myself  - Drow saying


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I think the issue is not trying to please everyone, but who they are trying to please :p

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I think the issue is not trying to please everyone, but who they are trying to please :p

ME!  I want them to please me!   :devil:  :dancing:

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 I have but one enemy: myself  - Drow saying


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It will matter to OE if they ever want to do another KS. But since they said they don't want another KS I guess they have decided from before to piss off their backers.

Are you really accusing Obsidian of deliberately pissing off their backers and customer base?

 

I cannot give his level of suggestions as I don't have access to beta

Hmm, maybe you should play the game before throwing tantrums about how terrible the game is going to be and how Obsidian swindled the backers and lecturing others on how wrong their opinions are.

Edited by Quetzalcoatl
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It will matter to OE if they ever want to do another KS. But since they said they don't want another KS I guess they have decided from before to piss off their backers.

Are you really accusing Obsidian of deliberately pissing off their backers and customer base?
we will see after release.

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It will matter to OE if they ever want to do another KS. But since they said they don't want another KS I guess they have decided from before to piss off their backers.

Are you really accusing Obsidian of deliberately pissing off their backers and customer base?
we will see after release.

Why? If they're doing as you say, that's already the case. Why would it only become apparent after release?

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Read the forums back a few weeks and months and it will be clear.

 

Why don't you just tell me? Seems way more straightforward then sifting through several months worth of posts.

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It will matter to OE if they ever want to do another KS. But since they said they don't want another KS I guess they have decided from before to piss off their backers.

Are you really accusing Obsidian of deliberately pissing off their backers and customer base?
we will see after release.

Why? If they're doing as you say, that's already the case. Why would it only become apparent after release?

 

The Backer Beta is not the game itself.  The purpose is to test the mechanics of the game and how people who are able and willing to play the BB feel about the progress and feel of the game.  Each update has changes and the BB players test out those changes.  Based on my play of the BB I am optimistic about the over all game.  There are things that need to be fixed.  

 

Suggestions made by people are only suggestions.  It is up to the developers to decide what fits into what they are doing.  They have to make the decision based on time, budget, resources etc.  Priority in my opinion is bug fixing and balancing.  

 

Until I am able to play the actual game I will not know if OE succeeded in making a Spiritual successor to the IE games, Arcanum, Fallout New Vegas.  I will be looking at the overall game, story, dialogue, choices and consequences and bugs.


 I have but one enemy: myself  - Drow saying


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