[392] Feedback on attributes: Perception feels OP

[PrimeJunta]

Another of the original requests for feedback was the attribute system. Since that storm has largely quieted, it's time to start another one.

 

I like the attribute system as it currently stands much better than it was originally. However, without doing the numbers and going with pure intuition, I'm finding that I am more or less always pumping some stats and dumping others. Specifically:

 

MIG - So-so. I rarely dump it, and then only for dedicated "disabler" builds. Good thing is many classes let you make one, so there is some choice involved.

 

CON - Pump for tanks, dump for glass cannons. Good thing is many classes let you build both. I made a ranged fighter and rogue with dinky CON and they were both viable and fun.

 

DEX - Ehh... I usually leave this at 10. Might pump it for a dedicated interrupter build (gotta try that one of these days). Might dump it for a truly dedicated tank that just stands there and soaks damage, occasionally going for a knockdown. Dunno how much fun that would be.

 

PER - The must-have stat. Absolutely everything relies on Accuracy, so it's the most important stat by far. I might only consider dumping this for the dedicated meat shield, and mmmmaybe the priest, but that's it.

 

INT - It's OK I guess. Both higher Deflection and bigger AoE are nice to have, and the former is good for melee types, the latter for casters.

 

RES - This is a bit tough actually. High RES is IMO most useful because of the Concentration bonus it gives for melee types. If they fix the barbarian so you can actually play it like they recommend (Wild Sprint behind enemy lines to a high-value target, Frenzy, murder him and everyone around him, keel over), this would be more useful for that. The duration bonus OTOH doesn't feel particularly important. I would consider beefing up the effect on duration, so that, say, you really wanted it on a dedicated disabler build.

[Luckmann]

I agree that Perception is way too hard to pass on right now. The problem is that if you don't gain Accuracy, or too low Accurace, from Perception, it ends up being completely useless for anyone that isn't primarily ranged.

CON appears to be the overall weakest, in my opinion, because it's one of the few that you can - for some builds - straight-out dump without much problem.

RES can theoretically be quite powerful, though. The duration bonus, even if it doesn't feel very important, can make quite a big difference at higher levels. 20 RES (Human + Aedyr) results in a hefty +50% increase in duration.

DEX doesn't have enough of an overall impact, imo, and while most would really like to not dump on it, there's also not that much mechanical incentive to take it high, either, except for certain characters.
 

Some quck ideas that come to mind (milage may vary) is:

• Split Accuracy bonus between Dexterity and Perception in order to devalue one and strengthen the other, and incentivize mixing.
• Add a small Graze-to-Hit or Hit-to-Crit bonus with Melee weapons to Perception, revaluing it for melee, since it would become a bit of a bum stat for non-ranged characters with only +1 Accuracy and +Range%.
• Add a small (1-2%?) Concentration bonus to Constitution; while this would overlap with Resolve, Resolve/Constitution builds would conceivably sacrifice a lot for that potentially large boost.
• I had something in my head about Might, but it slipped out.

[Sensuki]

I complained about Dexterity a while ago but got a firm rebuttal from the devs because QA apparently thinks it's good ...

 

They could even add interrupt back in and chuck it on Dexterity, that would make it pretty strong tbh, would make about zero sense but would work mechanically

 

I never build a character without maximum Perception, because it's just folly not to. There are some cases where it would be acceptable - Priests and a Shield-using tank, but even then, I'd still want 15 minimum.

 

I'm also starting to dump Constitution because I'm finding that extra percentile based endurance and health does absolutely nothing for you to help win an encounter. Encounters are won by offensive power, and you survive by killing things quicker. Stacking Constitution and Intellect doesn't work, it will make that specific character a bit harder to take down, but have little offensive power to contribute to the party, possibly even making the party take more damage due to stuff not dying as quick.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Sensuki

[Clean&Clear]

 

 

They could even add interrupt back in and chuck it on Dexterity, that would make it pretty strong tbh, would make about zero sense but would work mechanically

 

 

Nothing makes less sense than gaining deflection from Intellect, so it would sadly fit in

[Sensuki]

The option to have AoE and Duration together on Intellect will become available in a mod shortly after the game's release.

[Luckmann]

[...]

 

They could even add interrupt back in and chuck it on Dexterity, that would make it pretty strong tbh, would make about zero sense but would work mechanically

 

[...]

 

I think it would make sense; Dexterity helps you land those punches (or shots) where they are liable to cause the greatest disruption to your foe's stance or form.

 

Adding Interrupt would certainly work, but I still think it'd be better to split the Accuracy with Perception, because Perception is just plain.. better. Best, I would even say.

 

Might is feeling a bit overall meh to me, so Interrupt wouldn't be misplaced there either, but I could be wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

They could even add interrupt back in and chuck it on Dexterity, that would make it pretty strong tbh, would make about zero sense but would work mechanically

 

 

Nothing makes less sense than gaining deflection from Intellect, so it would sadly fit in

 

It's not that much of a stretch. You're deflecting intelligently.

[archangel979]

Perception would not be as important if accuracy didn't directly control critical hits as well.

[Karkarov]

Deflection from Int is still stupid, Perception is still must have and insanely OP due to how combat mechanics work, and Dex is basically useless unless you are a melee duel wielder with light weapons going for interrupts.

 

So yeah, same stat system we had last patch with the same problems.

[PrimeJunta]

Accuracy is so crucial to everybody that I would remove it from the attribute system altogether. Action speed and interrupt are much better candidates for inclusion.

[Luckmann]

Accuracy is so crucial to everybody that I would remove it from the attribute system altogether. Action speed and interrupt are much better candidates for inclusion.

 

This might actually be the best option. Perception giving Interrupt would potentially still make it very powerful, capable of harrassing at range.

 

A fast ranged harrasser would essentially be Dex/Per, which makes perfect sense on every level.

[Quadrone]

Just gonna jump on the train and agree that CON and DEX are dump candidates most of the time.

With the low percentages they give it just doesn't feel like it pays off to put "some" points in either. How long is +12% endurance gonna last you in a fight?

[Sensuki]

Not even one hit, usually. I'm starting to dump CON down to 5 on my characters, it's only -10% Endurance and Health, and you get more from the offensive attributes anyway.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Sensuki

[morhilane]

Just gonna jump on the train and agree that CON and DEX are dump candidates most of the time.

With the low percentages they give it just doesn't feel like it pays off to put "some" points in either. How long is +12% endurance gonna last you in a fight?

 

At level 4, +12% is about being able to get one more graze from a fast small weapon if you are wearing good armor. 

 

Maybe Constitution should give DR at this point.

[Sensuki]

Make CON give a set amount of integer Endurance instead of a percentage

[archangel979]

The thing is in single player games average players will not min max to its fullest, they will not do the math to find best possible combinations. This is only done in MMOs and competitive games.

 

So the question of value of attribute bonuses often comes down to perception and not math.

 

So when people see an attribute that gives easily understood mechanics like hit chance, crit chance and damage this is what they go for. It is even worse if hit chance and crit chance are controlled by same stat. It is a no choice really.

 

Additionally, unbalanced stat system (even in just perception of average players) will lead to same problem Wasteland 2 had where people picked up NPC not on their personality and general skills but on quality of distribution of their stats. We don't want that for PoE.

Also there is a reason why Khalid often "took a stroll into a forest alone without equipment"

Edited January 4, 2015 by archangel979

[GordonHalfman]

I agree that CON is pretty crap. The BB priest now starts with an amulet that gives +20 Endurance, which didn't strike me as being a particularly overpowered item, but it's equivalent to at least 10 points of CON for most characters?

 

I also think it would be nice if they integrated more incidental bonuses into the stat system. Like the range bonus you get from Perception, this is obviously not the selling point of the stat but I think logically appropriate incidental perks like that make the stat system more satisfying. It stands out as an oddity since most stats don't have this. It could have done with other things by removing some talents and integrating their bonuses into the stat system, like Graceful Retreat, Fast Runner, Interrupting Blows and Armoured Grace. I'm not too likely to take these talents over stuff that effects combat capabilities more directly, but they could make sense as extra bonuses in a stat system.

 

For example they could have done something like:

 

Dex - +3% action speed, 0.15 MS, +1.5 Deflection against disengagement

Con - +2% Endurance, + 2 Flat Endurance, -5% recovery penalty from armour (multiplicative)

Per - +1% critical range, +1.5% interrupt, +0.3m range

 

Numbers can be tweaked but the idea being that maxing out Dex is roughly equivalent to the bonuses you get from fast runner and graceful retreat combined.  

[Sensuki]

I actually hate the added Range on Perception. It was totally unnecessary. What they did was nerf the range of a lot of spells so that the added range from Perception actually had an effect on the gameplay.

In most cases it is actually quite bad being distant from the party because you miss out on Paladin Auras, Chanter chants, being in range of Priest AoE spells and stuff like that. Pointless addition IMO.

 

You're absolutely right that an Amulet that gives an integer bonus to Endurance is pretty much worth 10 points in CON at certain levels.

 

IMO CON should give integer bonuses to Endurance, then it might actually be somewhat okay, but it still doesn't change the fact that it does absolutely nothing to help you kill things faster, which in this game is very important on Hard difficulty, so investing in CON is not worth it on pretty much any character.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Sensuki