Journalism and sexism in the games industry

[Oerwinde]

 

 

Is there an established thread where we discuss how whiny crybabies are ruining the world? like how people are angry at Target for portraying Annie, a white character, with a white model, or is this an appropriate thread?

What?

Target was targeted by another petition, some 10,000 signatures long demanding they pull the advertising and apologize for having a white girl modelling an Annie inspired clothing line.

Edited January 5, 2015 by Oerwinde

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

Is there an established thread where we discuss how whiny crybabies are ruining the world? like how people are angry at Target for portraying Annie, a white character, with a white model, or is this an appropriate thread?

What?

 

Target was targeted by another petition, some 10,000 signatures long demanding they pull the advertising and apologize for having a white girl modelling an Annie inspired clothing line.

 

That's really stupid. Both the outrage and the fact that someone thought an Annie inspired clothes line was a good idea.

[Namutree]

 

 

Is there an established thread where we discuss how whiny crybabies are ruining the world? like how people are angry at Target for portraying Annie, a white character, with a white model, or is this an appropriate thread?

What?

Target was targeted by another petition, some 10,000 signatures long demanding they pull the advertising and apologize for having a white girl modelling an Annie inspired clothing line.

 

What a bunch of racists. Even if Annie wasn't a white character; there's nothing wrong with a white girl modeling Annie inspired clothes. Are the clothes for blacks only? Why not just go all the way with that logic and make some institutions for whites only, and others for blacks only. Oh wait, we've seen that before, and it wasn't pretty. Screw those 10,000 people. 

[LadyCrimson]

 

 

Is there an established thread where we discuss how whiny crybabies are ruining the world? like how people are angry at Target for portraying Annie, a white character, with a white model, or is this an appropriate thread?

What?

Target was targeted by another petition, some 10,000 signatures long demanding they pull the advertising and apologize for having a white girl modelling an Annie inspired clothing line.

 

To put it in perspective, I believe there were some previous ads or marketing with a black Annie, and the hubbub is that they changed it to a white Annie again, negating the message. Still..petitions for ad-pulling and apologies seem a bit over reactionary.

[Blarghagh]

Sex-negative feminism doesn't oppose "sex" they oppose the exploitive industries of pornography and prostitution.

 

I always find it a tad disturbing when people treat this as one in the same.

Although correct in the "specific definitions and history" side (so essentially, completely correct), modern usage of sex-positive and sex-negative as a term regarding feminists is closer to "likes sexy stuff and is open-minded" and "puritanically hates sexy stuff" respectively. At least, that's how it's used by all the idiots on both sides in the context of the #GamerGate debate anyway (I've already had this discussion with some of them). Essentially if you think Bayonetta is a sexy power fantasy, you're sex-positive and if you think women are only sexy to attract men and therefore Bayonetta oppresses women, then you're sex-negative. Neither side in #GamerGate seems to be smart enough to care about specific definitions so it's kindof colloquially grown into that. Everyone on the internet seems to be really stupid.

[Longknife]

 

Sex-negative feminism doesn't oppose "sex" they oppose the exploitive industries of pornography and prostitution.

 

I always find it a tad disturbing when people treat this as one in the same.

Although correct in the "specific definitions and history" side (so essentially, completely correct), modern usage of sex-positive and sex-negative as a term regarding feminists is closer to "likes sexy stuff and is open-minded" and "puritanically hates sexy stuff" respectively. At least, that's how it's used by all the idiots on both sides in the context of the #GamerGate debate anyway (I've already had this discussion with some of them). Essentially if you think Bayonetta is a sexy power fantasy, you're sex-positive and if you think women are only sexy to attract men and therefore Bayonetta oppresses women, then you're sex-negative. Neither side in #GamerGate seems to be smart enough to care about specific definitions so it's kindof colloquially grown into that. Everyone on the internet seems to be really stupid.

 

 

Which is exactly why I keep saying it's a detriment to keep carrying the feminist title. Meanings of words change. Society gives words their meaning and connotation, and yes, feminism is starting to garner a very very negative connotation, with the lines of various branches of feminism becoming blurred. You can see it, I can see it, we all can see it, so I don't quite understand why people like Sommers and Sarkeesian insist on carrying the same title as the other. They're also both guilty of helping the lines becoming blurred in that both simply want to be "feminists" and do not make it habit to name their specific branch of thought. Mind you I'm not saying "what ****ty people!" No that's completely understandable and natural that they'd wanna shorten it, but long-term it does blur lines. And whether you think people who don't understand the true definitions are idiots or not, it would be a grave mistake to discredit their interpretations and cling to the true interpretation, because then you'll misunderstand the context of what most people are trying to say. No, you NEED to be in tune with the misunderstood definitions, and this is EXACTLY how society governs and changes definitions and connotations over the course of time. Yes, if we wish to catalog the old interpretations for history's sake, then the old meanings are still important, but in the interest of debate on this topic and others we see today...? I daresay the "idiot's" definitions are more relevant to the discussions.

Edited January 5, 2015 by Longknife

[BruceVC]

 

There are certainly cases of sex workers being exploited and wronged, but there are also cases of people completely willingly going into that field and even enjoying their work.

They are a tiny minority of middle to upper class college educated women who have the luxury of not being dependant on the job and a greater capacity to leave.

 

Keyrock, Barie is right 

 

Porn stars are not necessarily exploited and many of them achieve financial success

 

But Hookers, no dude. If they aren't mentally dysfunctional when they start most of them do deteriorate mentally for a number of reasons

 

That doesn't make them bad people but its a most unenviable lifestyle. They are victims of their job and lifestyle and face many obstacles from society on different levels 

[Chilloutman]

 

 

There are certainly cases of sex workers being exploited and wronged, but there are also cases of people completely willingly going into that field and even enjoying their work.

They are a tiny minority of middle to upper class college educated women who have the luxury of not being dependant on the job and a greater capacity to leave.

 

Keyrock, Barie is right 

 

Porn stars are not necessarily exploited and many of them achieve financial success

 

But Hookers, no dude. If they aren't mentally dysfunctional when they start most of them do deteriorate mentally for a number of reasons

 

That doesn't make them bad people but its a most unenviable lifestyle. They are victims of their job and lifestyle and face many obstacles from society on different levels 

 

 

Yeah tell that to asian workers in factories working their ass off to get few bucks to get bread. But its still ok to beat **** out of factory worker in game, right? (well probably not asian guy, that would be racist, but at least white heterosexual guy would be ok no?)

[Keyrock]

I'm not going to argue with Bruce and Barothmuk on the sex work stuff any more.  Stating that I disagree, for the umpteenth time, with the stuff they declare as fact isn't going to do anybody any good.  I'm not conceding the point, I'm just done arguing about it.

 

In a related story, porn stars and TFYC are doing a charity drive to help prospective students get into STEM.

 

http://techraptor.net/content/sex-ed-porn-charity-raises-funds-scholarships-livestream

 

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-tfyc-and-the-porn-charity-live-show#home

 

 

4 days are left and they've raised over 5 times their initial $1k goal so far. 

 

Edit:  They're auctioning off a replica of the infamous #shirtgate shirt too.

Edited January 5, 2015 by Keyrock

[Longknife]

Remember that time anti-GG said they "improved" Vivian James by making her aryan and making her more polished and beautiful.

 

Dat wuz funni

[Blarghagh]

I'm not going to talk about sex workers because my knowledge consists out of how it works in my country and that's not even close to how it works in all of your respective backwards holes.

[Meshugger]

Any cause that gets porn behind it automatically wins in the end.

 

Each and every time.

[BruceVC]

I'm not going to talk about sex workers because my knowledge consists out of how it works in my country and that's not even close to how it works in all of your respective backwards holes.

 

I won't go into too many  details but lets just consider one point, how do you think anyone would feel about having sex for money.....yes you may enjoy it but what would the emotional and psychological impact be?

[Amentep]

Funny enough I can understand why people would object to certain changes like a female Thor. Thor is an iconic character that many of us grew up on so its quite reasonable for someone to feel uncomfortable about something we identify with

 

Why not create a new female character similar to Thor instead of changing the original?

 

And before someone points it out .." no this isn't the same as a suggestion that people who want more inclusivity in games should create there own games"

There actually no lore issues with female Thor in the Marvel Universe. Mjolnir has the specific legend of "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor." Semantic argument over the lack of gender neutral pronouns in the English language aside, the intent was, and always has been, that whoever was deemed worthy by the enchantment could hold the hammer and be Thor. Hence Beta Ray Bill.

 

The new Thor is a woman who is worthy, and thus has Thor's powers. Thor Odinson has become "unworthy" for unclear reasons.

 

There are already several other female Thor analogs, including Valkyrie, Thor Girl and Thor himself (transformed into a woman as in one of the original legends as I recall).

 

 

 

On a previous thread

 

Malcador said: "Science is gendered?"

 

aluminiumtrioxid said: "How many women do you know working in STEM?"

 

I said "Is that STEM's fault?"

 

To which aluminiumtrioxid said "Does it need to be anyone's fault in order for it to be recognised as a fact?"

 

To which I respond:

The inference I took from your statement was that Women not working in STEM when combined with the statement about science being "gendered" was that STEM had a default, gendered male state that actively repelled women.

 

Perhaps this inference was different from the intended implication, I don't know.

 

But I think it fair to point out that if there are a lack of women in technical fields, there's more evidence that shows that the cause involves how students are engaged (or not) in those subjects than an inherent quality within the fields themselves.

[Blarghagh]

Bruce, can you read my post again? Specifically the first 8 words? Because your response shows a lack of reading comprehension.

[BruceVC]

Bruce, can you read my post again? Specifically the first 8 words? Because your response shows a lack of reading comprehension.

No I understood your post perfectly, but my point doesn't require a deep understanding of the sex industry. Its kind of obvious, I would think this would be clear 

 

Your issue around discussing hookers was based on the fact you said you only knew about them in the Netherlands. My point had nothing to do with that...stop being cheeky TN   

[Orogun01]

 

I'm not going to talk about sex workers because my knowledge consists out of how it works in my country and that's not even close to how it works in all of your respective backwards holes.

 

I won't go into too many  details but lets just consider one point, how do you think anyone would feel about having sex for money.....yes you may enjoy it but what would the emotional and psychological impact be?

 

Bruce...

 

Firstly, people are different and run the gamut from those that would never be able to go through it to those that find it empowering. Psychological impact is what moralists who have little clue about sex workers and think of it as closely associated to the crime world and negative in general. The only reason why prostitution is abused by criminals is because it is illegal; although as someone pointed to me before on another thread decriminalization doesn't necessarily stop that, but it helps regulate it and police abuses.

 

Secondly, prostitution isn't the only job with a psychological impact and when you compare it with other heavier jobs it seems very tame. Yet no one seems to want to criminalize those jobs or eliminate them. Even when not all of them are necessary or useful, they still exist and for many it is the only way to put food on the table. 

 

Thirdly, how do you reconcile "Her body her choice" with "Prostitution and Porn should be illegal"?

[BruceVC]

 

 

I'm not going to talk about sex workers because my knowledge consists out of how it works in my country and that's not even close to how it works in all of your respective backwards holes.

 

I won't go into too many  details but lets just consider one point, how do you think anyone would feel about having sex for money.....yes you may enjoy it but what would the emotional and psychological impact be?

 

Bruce...

 

Firstly, people are different and run the gamut from those that would never be able to go through it to those that find it empowering. Psychological impact is what moralists who have little clue about sex workers and think of it as closely associated to the crime world and negative in general. The only reason why prostitution is abused by criminals is because it is illegal; although as someone pointed to me before on another thread decriminalization doesn't necessarily stop that, but it helps regulate it and police abuses.

 

Secondly, prostitution isn't the only job with a psychological impact and when you compare it with other heavier jobs it seems very tame. Yet no one seems to want to criminalize those jobs or eliminate them. Even when not all of them are necessary or useful, they still exist and for many it is the only way to put food on the table. 

 

Thirdly, how do you reconcile "Her body her choice" with "Prostitution and Porn should be illegal"?

 

 

Come on guys, you can't seriously be arguing with me about this and suggesting that a sex workers job isn't  both demeaning and degrading?

 

I think they should legalize all sex work, the girls need protection in the eyes of the law 

[Orogun01]

 

 

 

I'm not going to talk about sex workers because my knowledge consists out of how it works in my country and that's not even close to how it works in all of your respective backwards holes.

 

I won't go into too many  details but lets just consider one point, how do you think anyone would feel about having sex for money.....yes you may enjoy it but what would the emotional and psychological impact be?

 

Bruce...

 

Firstly, people are different and run the gamut from those that would never be able to go through it to those that find it empowering. Psychological impact is what moralists who have little clue about sex workers and think of it as closely associated to the crime world and negative in general. The only reason why prostitution is abused by criminals is because it is illegal; although as someone pointed to me before on another thread decriminalization doesn't necessarily stop that, but it helps regulate it and police abuses.

 

Secondly, prostitution isn't the only job with a psychological impact and when you compare it with other heavier jobs it seems very tame. Yet no one seems to want to criminalize those jobs or eliminate them. Even when not all of them are necessary or useful, they still exist and for many it is the only way to put food on the table. 

 

Thirdly, how do you reconcile "Her body her choice" with "Prostitution and Porn should be illegal"?

 

 

Come on guys, you can't seriously be arguing with me about this and suggesting that a sex workers job isn't  both demeaning and degrading?

 

I think they should legalize all sex work, the girls need protection in the eyes of the law 

 

So we should ban jobs that have to deal with sewage, excrement, bugs or anything that its demeaning and degrading? Or are they allowed as long as we keep women away from them and in cushy white collar jobs? You people that are for equality can't seem to stop showing their double standard when equality becomes harmful for your protected minorities.

[Nonek]

I'd prefer we prosecuted the unscrupulous individuals whom use sex workers, pimp out the girls and propogate prostitution, rather than the young ladies themselves. They are often victims of circumstance, and of course their plight should not be swept under the carpet or censored, the same as any other victim of crime should not be.

[Longknife]

Am I REALLY the only person who considers sex work to be very very VERY much off-topic from GamerGate, and the only one whose absolutely shocked at how many people allow Bruce to continue to derail the thread so we can continue having a discussion we've had four times already?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Am I REALLY the only person who considers sex work to be very very VERY much off-topic from GamerGate, and the only one whose absolutely shocked at how many people allow Bruce to continue to derail the thread so we can continue having a discussion we've had four times already?

Nope.

[Malcador]

He's okay with strippers though, that has to be somewhat demeaning. Don't think porn stars have it that easy either, several have left the industry and commented as such.

 

But really though, doesn't have much to do with gaming. Here's some hand wringing from Polygon - https://archive.today/G2Emq

 

Who knew a woman could produce a misogynistic horror like Moebius

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

I'm not going to talk about sex workers because my knowledge consists out of how it works in my country and that's not even close to how it works in all of your respective backwards holes.

 

I won't go into too many  details but lets just consider one point, how do you think anyone would feel about having sex for money.....yes you may enjoy it but what would the emotional and psychological impact be?

 

Bruce...

 

Firstly, people are different and run the gamut from those that would never be able to go through it to those that find it empowering. Psychological impact is what moralists who have little clue about sex workers and think of it as closely associated to the crime world and negative in general. The only reason why prostitution is abused by criminals is because it is illegal; although as someone pointed to me before on another thread decriminalization doesn't necessarily stop that, but it helps regulate it and police abuses.

 

Secondly, prostitution isn't the only job with a psychological impact and when you compare it with other heavier jobs it seems very tame. Yet no one seems to want to criminalize those jobs or eliminate them. Even when not all of them are necessary or useful, they still exist and for many it is the only way to put food on the table. 

 

Thirdly, how do you reconcile "Her body her choice" with "Prostitution and Porn should be illegal"?

 

 

Come on guys, you can't seriously be arguing with me about this and suggesting that a sex workers job isn't  both demeaning and degrading?

 

I think they should legalize all sex work, the girls need protection in the eyes of the law 

 

So we should ban jobs that have to deal with sewage, excrement, bugs or anything that its demeaning and degrading? Or are they allowed as long as we keep women away from them and in cushy white collar jobs? You people that are for equality can't seem to stop showing their double standard when equality becomes harmful for your protected minorities.

 

 

Orog I really enjoy debating with you but  I'm not sure if you are trolling or not now when you compare a guys that cleans sewage to the same as a sex worker? I am going to assume you are being serious and respond 

 

What happens when someone becomes a sex worker is that they lose that part of them that makes sex intimate and personal. This may not seem like a big deal but it is, think about it. Most  sex workers I have met  don't have serious boyfriends or a real relationship and you can understand why most people wouldn't seriously date a sex worker and most of the time the girls feel the same way

 

So the girls do it for the money and I'm not judging at all but you must realize that part of them becomes dead on an emotional level, I'm probably not explaining it properly.I apologize for that 

[BruceVC]

Am I REALLY the only person who considers sex work to be very very VERY much off-topic from GamerGate, and the only one whose absolutely shocked at how many people allow Bruce to continue to derail the thread so we can continue having a discussion we've had four times already?

 

No it  is related because it aligns to several SJ concepts