Ukraine Discussion

[Walsingham]

With respect, Rosti, you're confusing the abstract interests of 'Russia' with the current administration.

 

An isolated Russia serves his interests well as it hampers awareness of how badly he has borked his country. And if he can gain physical territory then it assures his place in the record books.

 

Plus I think you're being a bit one sided. I don't in any way condone what Russia is doing in Ukraine. But it was inept to assume Russia would stand idle as a direct neighbour aligned West. Perhaps excusably naive, since one might have assumed that Putin was not intent on shafting the nation, but still naive.

 

I think they key point here is that the point of conspiracy. The Russian media is claiming we have orchestrated the move West. We assert that they orchestrated the move East.

[Malcador]

Wasn't Ukraine inching towards NATO before all of this ? NATO has been moving East of late as well, and given the alliance's original purpose being a threat to Russia, it does make sense for Russia to see then that way.

[pmp10]

But it was inept to assume Russia would stand idle as a direct neighbour aligned West.

Not standing idle is far off annexing territory.

During the orange revolution Russia managed to restrain itself and eventually Ukraine peacefully flip-flopped back to their sphere.

Edited December 28, 2014 by pmp10

[Zoraptor]

Wasn't Ukraine inching towards NATO before all of this ? NATO has been moving East of late as well, and given the alliance's original purpose being a threat to Russia, it does make sense for Russia to see then that way.

 

The formal non-aligned status that was recently revoked was implemented in 2010, iirc. Yanukovich mainly used Europe/ NATO to wangle concessions and benefits from Russia.

[Orogun01]

The only time I've ever seen sanctions do any bloody good is South Africa.

 

Russia seems set on the same course as Zimbabwe. Tinpot comedy halfwit takes charge, and ****s his country into a wooden ****house, resulting merely in the ordinary people being too poor to do squat about him.

 

The main reason for sanctions is that the most powerful countries in the World will do almost anything rather than declare war.

 

I honestly don't know if that's really really cool, or freakishly cowardly.

Russia is dealing with China, which could sustain them and even give them indirect benefits.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-05-21/russia-signs-china-gas-deal-after-decade-of-talks.html

 

Before you go wanting for war, realize that the next global war is going to see these two superpowers aligned against the West.

Plus NK ,a bunch of Middle Eastern insurgents, Egypt and Israel.

 

Putin has been working towards undermining the US dollar by trying to switch some countries back to the gold standard (a good idea IMO). The situation in Ukraine is just another front on this Cold War.(We should come up with a new name for it...Second Cold War?)

 

[Agiel]

Whatever "alliance" between China and Russia, be it economic, military, or both, would inevitably result in the Russians playing second fiddle to the Chinese. And this is just one of several reasons why I don't believe for a second Putin would settle for that. Putin is in the FoPol game to "win", and not (if he can help it) turn Russia into a de facto vassal state of the Chinese.

[Walsingham]

Whatever "alliance" between China and Russia, be it economic, military, or both, would inevitably result in the Russians playing second fiddle to the Chinese. And this is just one of several reasons why I don't believe for a second Putin would settle for that. Putin is in the FoPol game to "win", and not (if he can help it) turn Russia into a de facto vassal state of the Chinese.

 

I agree as far as it goes, but consider how the Chinese do business. They couldn't care less what Putin's domestic or foreign policies are. Because they see Putin's Russia as exactly what it is: an oil kleptocracy, like Nigeria.

[Drowsy Emperor]

I'm always amused when people belittle Putin, a man who has spent 14 years ruling a country, taking it from an economic ruin back into world power status. The man turned the fanatically warlike Chechens from an enemy of Russia to a steadfast ally. All the while being consistently the most popular and beloved leader among his people in decades. And even if a part of his opinion polls can be attributed to state propaganda he is still routinely more popular than any other western leader and usually more than a few of them combined.

 

On top of that he managed to actually rule a country with 150 million people that spans two continents and stay in power for so long among some very dangerous people which is no small feat in itself.

 

And even now the combined political pressure of what now passes for the west is not putting a dent in his opinion polls, let alone his actual power.

 

Indeed one would have to be a cretin to believe the man as anything less than extremely capable. 

Edited December 29, 2014 by Drowsy Emperor

[HoonDing]

[Sarex]

Joke is old, Oby did it 5 threads ago.

[Walsingham]

Also the Emperor of mankind was borne of the spirits of every shaman and true mystic in human history up to that point. His agenda was the survival of the entire species.

 

He was not - and this is a subtle point - a shiny midget ex sheet sniffer so threatened by competition that he tries to centralise the civil and business life of his entire country.

 

...Thus proving the point that our enemies define us. In the course of writing that Vladimir Putin has just proselytised the first avowed Loyalist or whatever you call Emperor groupies.

[BruceVC]

I'm always amused when people belittle Putin, a man who has spent 14 years ruling a country, taking it from an economic ruin back into world power status. The man turned the fanatically warlike Chechens from an enemy of Russia to a steadfast ally. All the while being consistently the most popular and beloved leader among his people in decades. And even if a part of his opinion polls can be attributed to state propaganda he is still routinely more popular than any other western leader and usually more than a few of them combined.

 

On top of that he managed to actually rule a country with 150 million people that spans two continents and stay in power for so long among some very dangerous people which is no small feat in itself.

 

And even now the combined political pressure of what now passes for the west is not putting a dent in his opinion polls, let alone his actual power.

 

Indeed one would have to be a cretin to believe the man as anything less than extremely capable. 

 

I tend to agree, he has accomplished some amazing feats considering the state get got Russia in

 

He used controversial but effective tactics to end the Yeltsin era and did unite the country, but how did he do it? He has moved Russia to a very controlled state where the basic  human rights of people are  ignored and he effectively disabled many of the organs of Democracy. And he then controlled the economic recovery of Russia through oil and gas exports. But he was fooling himself as his policies have now got Russia into the state its in 

Edited December 30, 2014 by BruceVC

[obyknven]

I'm really surprised how Westlings can fill yet another thread by own butthurt. Especially funny to watch how "tolerant" and "multucultural"  WASP's become mad about beginning of Asian dominance in the World. 

[Walsingham]

Wow, that fellah really showed that small piece of cloth.

 

I hope to hell no serving US soldiers see it or they may start weeping.

[Malcador]

They might. Some soldiers tend to be real oorah morons about symbols.

[Walsingham]

They might. Some soldiers tend to be real oorah morons about symbols.

 

I think you're confusing becoming very angry and crying.

[HoonDing]

That's not Ukraine, though, that's downtown Detroit.

[Malcador]

 

They might. Some soldiers tend to be real oorah morons about symbols.

 

I think you're confusing becoming very angry and crying.

 

 

Childish reaction in any case.   But I suppose they are useful bodies.

 

Also, from your description, the Emperor is indeed that - when it comes to not tolerating competition in any form. Great Crusade, Unification, disposal of two of his sons. Also did centralize everything with the nightmare bureaucracy. 

 

So, really Putin could very well be the Big E.  Not quite at the 'melts your eyeballs with his psychic glory' stage though.

[Walsingham]

 

 

They might. Some soldiers tend to be real oorah morons about symbols.

 

I think you're confusing becoming very angry and crying.

 

 

Childish reaction in any case.   But I suppose they are useful bodies.

 

Also, from your description, the Emperor is indeed that - when it comes to not tolerating competition in any form. Great Crusade, Unification, disposal of two of his sons. Also did centralize everything with the nightmare bureaucracy. 

 

So, really Putin could very well be the Big E.  Not quite at the 'melts your eyeballs with his psychic glory' stage though.

 

 

But that's not how it works though, is it. Just look at all the different Guard regiments. They all come from very different Worlds and cultures.

[Malcador]

True, but they all must bow to him. In 40k waaaay more than 30k.

[Agiel]

Frankly I'm more bemused by the appropriation of the Southern Cross banner:

 

 

Next thing you know they'll be singing: "Oh, I wish I were in Dixie! Away! Away!"

Edited December 31, 2014 by Agiel

[Cultist]

The thread is a mess. ****ty mess, mostly thanks to obyknven's walls of text and retardo propaganda spam. I adore good old propaganda and demagogy, but not when it's /b/ level.

 

Anyway, I was absent for a long time and crave a good hate speeches, mutual accusations and other tasty stuff.

Let's see what two videos of a ukrainian torch marches in the anniversary of Stepan Bandera's birthday will do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=lpdWPXOwZ50

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Aymj_l3Kuqw

obyknven, be useful for once - translate what they are chanting. I recall that was something about "kill the russians!" but that was only basd n youtube comments so I am not sure.

[Drowsy Emperor]

The title of the second video is "knife the Moscowites". I can make out "Ukraine for Ukrainians"

 

Sad to see slavic nationalism targeted against Russians, when the Kievan rus i.e. today's Ukrainians are the historical cradle of Russia. Same people really.

 

This is the process of creating yet another nation state out of thin air by homogenizing the population against the "enemy". 

 

Moscow should have acted against this nazi minority way before they flipped Yanukovich.

[Cultist]

The title of the second video is "knife the Moscowites". I can make out "Ukraine for Ukrainians"

 

Sad to see slavic nationalism targeted against Russians, when the Kievan rus i.e. today's Ukrainians are the historical cradle of Russia. Same people really.

 

This is the process of creating yet another nation state out of thin air by homogenizing the population against the "enemy". 

 

Moscow should have acted against this nazi minority way before they flipped Yanukovich.

How dare you! They support Europe and DEMMMMMUCRACY!

[HoonDing]

Oby is Polish expat in Birmingham, UK. She doesn't speak Russian at all.