First Impressions (v364)

[Shevek]

This is inspired by the IE games and meant to rekindle the "feels" we had while playing them. It uses a different rpg system and it is set in a different world. The devs were clear from the get go that while this is an homage to that "style" of game it is by no means a copy. In fact, they went out of their way to point out that they would be making significant changes to address issues they felt were prevalent in the older titles and to suit their own vision of what they wanted those games to be. 

 

Also, seriously, we may have commissioned the work but they are the artists.

Edited November 27, 2014 by Shevek

[Naurgalen]

While I totally like both DA:O & what I have played of DA:I, I really prefer BG2 style of combat, and expect PoE be more close to that as the real successor.

 

Still I must agree with Skie Nightfall too, sometimes I feel some people want a carbon copy from the BGs Saga and forget that this is other game/IP, not a Saga (yet) with a tweaked engine and time has passed - some gameplay mechanics evolved, so it will never be exactly the same. (And that can be for better)

[archangel979]

DA:O was a fine game and RPG. Loved it. Played it through 3 times.

DA2 was the worst RPG I ever played in my life, and I played lots of ****y ones, and probably is the last game I touch from the bones of a dead company.

 

Regardless, I think people in these forums in general should lay down from their IE obsession. In many topics I think it makes you completely blind. IE is done dead. You want to play a new IE game? You got the EE of the old ones, or you can build your own new IE game. I will probably buy it. Good luck.

PoE does not use the IE and will not be a IE copy *sighs*

 

I also remind you that the E in IE stands for a Engine.

 

(General rant for months spent on these forums)

Or maybe we just want OE to remember their KS pitch. As was already said countless times, if they said in their KS pitch that PoE is going to be similar to NWN2 or DAO they would have gotten half the money they got or even less. Most people supported it because they used IE games in their Pitch!

Of course now we want them to uphold what they said.

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

Areas of improvement:

-I hope they significantly add to talent selection in order to expand build choices since it seems they are going to stick to linking talents and skills.

 

I forgot to mention this^

 

It's sorely needed. When I went for Chanters this time, I had literally just Ancient Memory and a derivative talent of that one to choose from at level 4, 5, 6.

Sure, there were a tonne of weapon talents with Athletics on each and every one, but this is just too scant. Please, OE, add more talents!

[IndiraLightfoot]

While I totally like both DA:O & what I have played of DA:I, I really prefer BG2 style of combat, and expect PoE be more close to that as the real successor.

 

Still I must agree with Skie Nightfall too, sometimes I feel some people want a carbon copy from the BGs Saga and forget that this is other game/IP, not a Saga (yet) with a tweaked engine and time has passed - some gameplay mechanics evolved, so it will never be exactly the same. (And that can be for better)

This is a bit where I stand. I'm really liking combat in 364, but it doesn't feel like IE spiritual successor combat, if you know what I mean.

[Cubiq]

Nightmare. I'm not saying there's no movement at all just that it's not really an integral part of encounters. You can tell they don't want you to move much because your characters movement speed is dramatically reduced when combat begins...for no reason other than that's how they wanted it.

 

And while you can do all the things you mention unfortunately you can also just take 2 mages and spam barrier and war cry/challenge and never die so positioning is a chore and not really required. Whereas it could be the difference between defeat and victory in the IE games and was something you paid attention to a lot.

 

I've already tried that, and it really only works if you specialize for that, which is a balance issue.

If i made 6 fighter/mages in bg2 i probably wouldn't have to move either.

The slow run speed is so that the movement abilities actually matter.

It may be a tedious design, but the encounters them selves are made for you to move if you don't abuse the mechanics.

 

But yes i know that movement in IE was good thing. I was for removing the engagement mechanic, after all.

[GrinningReaper659]

This is inspired by the IE games and meant to rekindle the "feels" we had while playing them. It uses a different rpg system and it is set in a different world. The devs were clear from the get go that while this is an homage to that "style" of game it is by no means a copy. In fact, they went out of their way to point out that they would be making significant changes to address issues they felt were prevalent in the older titles and to suit their own vision of what they wanted those games to be. 

 

Also, seriously, we may have commissioned the work but they are the artists.

 

I'm generally of the mind that the devs should be given a wide berth of artistic license due to the ambiguity of 'spiritual successor,' but some specific promises were made in the pitch. They said in the KS pitch that "Project Eternity will..."

 

"...take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate" -- I'm pretty confident on this front, we haven't seen the companions yet but the exploration is acceptably fun (though small, busy maps do stand out as less fun to explore than those of Baldur's Gate imo).

 

"...add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale" -- I'd say it's pretty fair to state that this isn't the case at the moment. The fact that people find the current combat fun does not fulfill this promise, because they promised "the fun, intense combat ... of Icewind Dale." This is much more specific than just promising fun, intense combat. Those saying that it's okay that the combat feels more like DA combat or NWN2 combat are missing the point that while it may be fun for you, it's not acceptable in that it doesn't fulfill this specific promise. I'm not quite as upset about this as some others seem to be, but the closer the combat gets to the combat of the IE games (see: the fun, intense combat of Icewind Dale), the happier I'll be. If the engagemnt system's support of static combat takes away that overall IE combat feel from the game, a great number of backers are going to be disappointed, and justifiably so. I haven't played the beta since after the first update so I'm not personally sure how the combat feels right now; but from what I'm reading here, those upset with it say it doesn't feel like the IE games at all and that's not okay, and those that like it say that it doesn't feel like the IE games at all and that is okay. Well, if this is the case, it's a problem because it contradicts a promise that was made.

 

"...and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment." -- No problems here.

[Sensuki]

 In fact, they went out of their way to point out that they would be making significant changes to address issues they felt were prevalent in the older titles and to suit their own vision of what they wanted those games to be. 

And ironically enough some of the problems they tried to correct are worse in this game.

 

and that's right, the combat feels nothing like Icewind Dale.

Edited November 27, 2014 by Sensuki

[Shevek]

@GrinningReaper65:

I disagree. The statement "...add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale" does not specify combat mechanics or, to be clear, the EXACT combat mechanics. They could, and obviously did, mean the encounter and dungeon design. Which, in my view, are very much like IWD (I am currently doing a run through IWD:EE, btw). The "intensity" of the combat relates to its frequency and scope. Moreover, the idea that somehow engagement was sprung on us is ludicrous. They've been talking about it for a year and a half.

 

One could use your line of thinking to decry ANY change to the IWD formula.

Edited November 27, 2014 by Shevek

[YunikoYokai5]

Well, I've played a little bit so far (not much though, going back to it in a few minutes) but just wanted to say my two cents:

 

Overall, it's pretty well polished. My only gripe that is really bugging me is that the Crossing map lags like hell when I try to record using Fraps. Really annoying. I'm not sure about the new targeting circles but they don't bother me all that much. The paladin appears to be fixed which is awesome and the voice over gave me a fright at first XD I still hate that talents and everything is still linked, and I absolutely hate how in character creation there is at least 2 backgrounds that give you +1 Athletics and +1 Stealth but there is no Athletics/Survival combo. Or a Lore and Survival or something like that. 

 

Not going to say much beyond that yet since I've only played half an hour so far. I like how the adventurer's guild not doesn't cost you an arm and a leg any more either. 

 

(Also, about the whole Bioware/IE discussion? I personally think that if you stick to a rigid model, then you will never see any evolution. I don't like that. So the battle system isn't exactly like Icewind Dale or BG, we can adapt to that. I'm sure BG2 added new features/mechanics/altered things after BG. I say give the developers some freedom here and let them see what they can bring to the IE model to improve/add to it)

[Trodat]

(Also, about the whole Bioware/IE discussion? I personally think that if you stick to a rigid model, then you will never see any evolution. I don't like that. So the battle system isn't exactly like Icewind Dale or BG, we can adapt to that. I'm sure BG2 added new features/mechanics/altered things after BG. I say give the developers some freedom here and let them see what they can bring to the IE model to improve/add to it)

Whenever there's a new game, developers / publishers are highly touting how the new game will have improved mechanics compared to it's predecessors. Unfortunately, failing in this task. Doesn't matter if we are talking about first person shooters, cRPG's - these type of games were mastered already 10-15-20 years ago. Yeah, I agree, wanting to improve and tune existing systems and rule sets is a noble intention, BUT. Again what we're seeing is not "tuning" - it is an overhaul to a much more inferior system.

I'm seriously not sure what PoE has to really set it apart from those numerous AAA bore fest rpg's, oh yeah - tons of text and no quest pointers.

[Sensuki]

Yeah, I agree, wanting to improve and tune existing systems and rule sets is a noble intention, BUT. Again what we're seeing is not "tuning" - it is an overhaul to a much more inferior system.

Quoted for Truth

[YunikoYokai5]

Whenever there's a new game, developers / publishers are highly touting how the new game will have improved mechanics compared to it's predecessors. Unfortunately, failing in this task. Doesn't matter if we are talking about first person shooters, cRPG's - these type of games were mastered already 10-15-20 years ago. Yeah, I agree, wanting to improve and tune existing systems and rule sets is a noble intention, BUT. Again what we're seeing is not "tuning" - it is an overhaul to a much more inferior system.

I'm seriously not sure what PoE has to really set it apart from those numerous AAA bore fest rpg's, oh yeah - tons of text and no quest pointers.

 

This can and does happen fairly often, I agree. However, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt and give them a chance. I am playing PoE and BG:EE just now and enjoying them both equally (well, as equally as I can since one is a beta and the other is a finished game). 

 

The only way I found to record the crossing was to put PoE into windowed mode and turn Fraps to record the actual screen rather than just the game...results were good although at the end everyone started speeding up far faster than normal XD I though I had fast time on!

[Flow]

I'm seriously not sure what PoE has to really set it apart from those numerous AAA bore fest rpg's, oh yeah - tons of text and no quest pointers.

 

 

Given the content we currently have access to, I'm not sure how you think you have enough information to make that judgment.

[Trodat]

 

I'm seriously not sure what PoE has to really set it apart from those numerous AAA bore fest rpg's, oh yeah - tons of text and no quest pointers.

 

 

Given the content we currently have access to, I'm not sure how you think you have enough information to make that judgment.

 

I was a little bit too vague. I' meant that what PoE has to make it "KS worthy game not restricted by mean publishers" Obsidian went KS, they had a chance. Instead what we have now is this delicious looking cake with a disappointing taste.

[Sensuki]

The Priest's Brilliant Radiance Talent pwns hard.

[Gairnulf]

Regardless, I think people in these forums in general should lay down from their IE obsession.

No! Nevah! seriously, what is there, after the last IE games? The general tendency of streamlining is the only thing that comes to my mind, and we shall never surrender to that. We backed this game because there was a guarantee it would follow the spirit of the IE games.

 

Doesn't matter if we are talking about first person shooters, cRPG's - these type of games were mastered already 10-15-20 years ago. Yeah, I agree, wanting to improve and tune existing systems and rule sets is a noble intention, BUT. Again what we're seeing is not "tuning" - it is an overhaul to a much more inferior system.

Of course, I would be happy to see improvements as well. It's a bit far fetched example, but compare Age of Empires: The Conquerors to Rise of Nations. That's the kind of improvement while preserving the spirit of the original that I'd be happiest to see.

 

BGII was in the middle ages, and PoE is the early 16th century. I want to feel the Reformation! Which reminds me - I for one think the new targeting markers with the baroque elements in them look cool.

Edited November 27, 2014 by Gairnulf

[Sensuki]

The general tendency of streamlining is the only thing that comes to my mind, and we shall never surrender to that. We backed this game because there was a guarantee it would follow the spirit of the IE games.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uwCMf71nOA

[CaptainMace]

The one good thing DA:O did was Choice and Consequence, everything else was pretty darn bad.

 

Indeed, and yet even this wasn't much of a big deal since it was exactly the same narrative architecture as Kotor and Mass Effect. At some point, gotta be like "duh, this *go in 4 places following the order of your choice, make a decision in each of em and go in the ending place to see their result* again". Got bored pretty quickly in DAO.

[YunikoYokai5]

 

Doesn't matter if we are talking about first person shooters, cRPG's - these type of games were mastered already 10-15-20 years ago. Yeah, I agree, wanting to improve and tune existing systems and rule sets is a noble intention, BUT. Again what we're seeing is not "tuning" - it is an overhaul to a much more inferior system.

Of course, I would be happy to see improvements as well. It's a bit far fetched example, but compare Age of Empires: The Conquerors to Rise of Nations. That's the kind of improvement while preserving the spirit of the original that I'd be happiest to see.

 

BGII was in the middle ages, and PoE is the early 16th century. I want to feel the Reformation! Which reminds me - I for one think the new targeting markers with the baroque elements in them look cool.

 

 

I would be happy with that as well. As I said, I'm enjoying BG:EE (not sure how different it is to the original BG) and PoE (despite it flaws). Then again, I didn't absolutely hate DA:2 either XD It was bad but I enjoyed some parts of it (solo the arishok as a mage? Cue Benny Hill Theme!). That and I didn't hate ME3 because of the ending either. I guess I'm just a lax style of gamer ^.^ I'll enjoy PoE so long as it has good characters and a good storyline. I can swallow any combat if I don't like it (just now I'm on the fence, mostly because I think I need to be broken into the spells gently rather than have 20 of the damn things to choose from!)

[Gairnulf]

Am I too old, I thought people would know the quote source

[Kjaamor]

No! Nevah! seriously, what is there, after the last IE games? The general tendency of streamlining is the only thing that comes to my mind, and we shall never surrender to that. We backed this game because there was a guarantee it would follow the spirit of the IE games.

 

The difference for a lot of people, including myself, is wanting something that is in the spirit of the IE games, while other people are requesting what amounts to a mod/quest pack of the IE games. Too many posts on this forum amount to "No, no! You've done it wrong, the IE games did it like this..." rather than trying to think in terms of the bigger picture of a new game.

 

A long time ago, I begrudgingly accepted that PoE was not going to be BG3 with different spell names and world.

[Sensuki]

Am I too old, I thought people would know the quote source

Any self-respecting Iron Maiden fan or WW2 buff would know that one.

 

The difference for a lot of people, including myself, is wanting something that is in the spirit of the IE games, while other people are requesting what amounts to a mod/quest pack of the IE games.

This is not true. There are many basic things the IE games did very well that Obsidian has changed 'just because' in PE and ended up with something inferior. One of the bulletpoints of Josh Sawyer's GDC Next 10 Presentation 2013 was "IE feels", and unfortunately this only seems to mean "selective IE feels".

Edited November 27, 2014 by Sensuki

[Kjaamor]

The difference for a lot of people, including myself, is wanting something that is in the spirit of the IE games, while other people are requesting what amounts to a mod/quest pack of the IE games.

This is not true. There are many basic things the IE games did very well that Obsidian has changed 'just because' in PE and ended up with something inferior. One of the bulletpoints of Josh Sawyer's GDC Next 10 Presentation 2013 was "IE feels", and unfortunately this only seems to mean "selective IE feels".

 

Your third sentence would suggest that your first sentence is incorrect.

[Sensuki]

No it's not. You said mod/quest pack of the IE games. I was referring to basic functionality, not specific systems or content and you're starting to become quite a condescending prick towards me.