First Impressions (v364)

[prodigydancer]

@Osvir

I'm not a backer so no BB for me. I understand what you're talking about but BB tries to be a "no spoiler" beta making it hard to experience the game through beta. We know many things about the setting but almost nothing about the story.

 

So far there's no reason to doubt that (mechanics aside) PoE will be a nice, content-heavy CRPG with at least acceptable writing but such topics belong in the General Discussions area. This is a beta board and here people mostly discuss features that fall short of expectations, bugs, problems and suggestions.

 

I wouldn't say that the system is mediocre or that it doesn't make any sense

Of course. And you can see that people don't criticize the combat system in its entirety but only certain parts of it such as pacing (mostly related to movement speed), melee engagement, defense <-> combat speed tradeoff (aka naked ranged characters) and balance issues (with attributes and classes).

Edited November 29, 2014 by prodigydancer

[Quadrone]

Oh lord, this thread...

For me v364 is the first time where I can actually play the game for a prolonged time without crashing or some bug hamming everything up.

So earlier I explored the Skaen Temple and Lle a Rhemen for the first time in earnest.

Coming from that and reading up on the latest posts in this thread and the WYSIWYG one is a goddamn riot.

Even though everything from loot, XP, combat to skills and inventory is supposedly in dire need of a complete overhaul I somehow did it wrong and still had fun.

 

Reading some of the opinions on this forum would have any outsider think the game was in complete shambles. But in my opinion what Shevek said is mostly true, the game has many flaws still but they are all fixable with changes and improvements to the existing system.

The changes many here are getting all toxic over are a *maybe* not a *must*.

[Lephys]

Reading some of the opinions on this forum would have any outsider think the game was in complete shambles. But in my opinion what Shevek said is mostly true, the game has many flaws still but they are all fixable with changes and improvements to the existing system.

The changes many here are getting all toxic over are a *maybe* not a *must*.

What?! You mean the dev team doesn't just have one big adjustment knob that ranges from "bad" to "good," and whenever a problem arises, the answer isn't to simply turn it back in the other direction?! They can actually tweak individual things to fix individual problems?! What madness is this?!!!!!

 

[Osvir]

prodigy, I've been here since about the time the Kickstarter started, no need to tell me

[Sensuki]

I'd say there's a HUGE difference between a Technical (Mathematical) Gamer and a Roleplaying Gamer... I think the RPGCodex tends to be the former, often, ironically.

That's not true actually, there are way more role players and storyfag gamers on the RPGCodex - that is why Planescape: Torment keeps winning the best RPG every time.

[Sensuki]

The changes many here are getting all toxic over are a *maybe* not a *must*.

There's a difference between serviceable and good.

 

Obsidian have never made a game with good combat IMO and this game is trending to be no different. There's a few things they could do to change that, but that's up to them - I am providing my perspective as a person who plays games pretty much solely for the combat.

 

If you want to be a nay-sayer of that, you go ahead. If you're more of a role-player or a story gamer, you likely won't be too affected by changes to combat mechanics, but your opposition will be ruining it for people that are.

[Ashen Rohk]

 

I'd say there's a HUGE difference between a Technical (Mathematical) Gamer and a Roleplaying Gamer... I think the RPGCodex tends to be the former, often, ironically.

That's not true actually, there are way more role players and storyfag gamers on the RPGCodex - that is why Planescape: Torment keeps winning the best RPG every time.

 

 

As great as Torment is, I think it's more the fact that RPGCodex refuse to acknowledge any RPG after 2006 which is why that Top 70 list was filled with everyone version of Wizardry and Ultima they could find.

 

I really dig what Sensuki is doing but I'm not really about the mechanics as long as they don't completely suck - I'm still on the fence with the engagement mechanic as I have to test it out more.

[Sensuki]

While Wizardry and Ultima are not my thing, I don't believe there is a modern RPG that can stand up to older ones systematically or design wise. Newer RPGs are more about production values than anything else.

I really enjoy some of the newer ones - The Witcher 1, Mass Effect 2 but they both suffer from severe dumbing down of gameplay elements. If you don't care about dumbing down of gameplay elements, then yeah, I can see how you would have that opinion.

[Osvir]

 

I'd say there's a HUGE difference between a Technical (Mathematical) Gamer and a Roleplaying Gamer... I think the RPGCodex tends to be the former, often, ironically.

That's not true actually, there are way more role players and storyfag gamers on the RPGCodex - that is why Planescape: Torment keeps winning the best RPG every time.

Well, okay. I only read on the PoE part on the Codex by the way, and I often feel the disappointment boils down to disappointment in "math" in some way or the other by some members. People who parrot your expression, potentially.

[Sensuki]

There are those people on every forum. Usually people who have some idea of how things work under the hood.

Edited November 30, 2014 by Sensuki

[Osvir]

I can't debate that. I don't know who 99% of the people are behind their username on the internet.

[Ashen Rohk]

While Wizardry and Ultima are not my thing, I don't believe there is a modern RPG that can stand up to older ones systematically or design wise. Newer RPGs are more about production values than anything else.

 

I really enjoy some of the newer ones - The Witcher 1, Mass Effect 2 but they both suffer from severe dumbing down of gameplay elements. If you don't care about dumbing down of gameplay elements, then yeah, I can see how you would have that opinion.

 

I was super pissed about how simple Mass Effect 2's character customisation was, but the story and characters more than make up for it. I'm hoping the same for DA:I, as the skill trees are a little simple (but I've not got class specialisation yet). Wasteland 2's is pretty damn awesome, and despite my hate for the game, FF10 had an awesome magic system with the skill wheel thing.

This might be just me, but everytime I try and old school dungeon crawler from Arena, Wizardy, a couple of the Gold Box ones, they just feel the same to me. Done one, done 'em all. I can even overlook completely retarded mechanics like Morrowind's combat if the world is well crafted and the story is well written.

 

Also, can someone, OBJECTIVELY, explain this engagement mechanic and why people seem to hate it? So far as i can gather it's AoO but only from people who were engaged on you in combat?

[Shevek]

They dont like AoOs and prefer mobility to be the norm to allow for what they perceive as easy tactical repositioning. It is an issue of perspective.

 

If is A is moving from B, who should the burden of action fall on? Should A work to achieve mobility or should B work to maintain the current encounter position? Engagement is built such that mobility is achievable but must be worked toward (the efficacy of disengagement tactics being up for debate).

[Karkarov]

After finally playing the newest backer beta I have some feedback myself.  It is pretty long so instead of just making a giant post I am going to put it in spoiler blocks for those who want to check it out.

 

 

 

[prodigydancer]

Also, can someone, OBJECTIVELY, explain this engagement mechanic and why people seem to hate it? So far as i can gather it's AoO but only from people who were engaged on you in combat?

I'll summarize it in one sentence: melee engagement mechanic is here to harshly penalize player characters who are within the range of an enemy melee unit for any attempt to move away.

 

Long version:

1) Melee engagement (I think we should use an acronym - how about MEE?) favors standing still over tactically repositioning party members during the course of an encounter. The funny part is that if you like mindless combat and standing still, your experience will be exactly the same with or without MEE. This is also the part the pro-MEE crowd seems to not understand: MEE removal won't change their experience in any way. Anyone who already chooses to stand still will never trigger an AoO anyway.

2) MEE works both ways and is proven to be exploitable by bouncing aggro between the party members.

3) MEE is not affected by action cooldown and has no internal cooldown. It just happens whenever the requirements are met. Which means MEE is the ultimate "it's magic" anti-movement tool. It's here only to prevent the combat from being more tactical via reactive repositioning. It serves no other purpose.

4) Combined with high movement speed that most enemies currently possess MEE promotes the abuse of various CC mechanics and strong openers in order to resolve fights as quickly as possible - ideally before enemies are able to get close. This in turn promotes metagaming and powerplaying over role-playing.

 

Sensuki is going to post a thread with a more detailed analysis.

 

P.S. I can see how MEE could be a legitimate tool in a pure real-time game with active dodge. But in PoE it's just out of place.

Edited November 30, 2014 by prodigydancer

[Osvir]

 

Also, can someone, OBJECTIVELY, explain this engagement mechanic and why people seem to hate it? So far as i can gather it's AoO but only from people who were engaged on you in combat?

I'll summarize it in one sentence: melee engagement mechanic is here to harshly penalize player characters who are within the range of an enemy melee unit for any attempt to move away.

 

Long version:

1) Melee engagement (I think we should use an acronym - how about MEE?) favors standing still over tactically repositioning party members during the course of an encounter. The funny part is that if you like mindless combat and standing still, your experience will be exactly the same with or without MEE. This is also the part the pro-MEE crowd seems to not understand: MEE removal won't change their experience in any way. Anyone who already chooses to stand still will never trigger an AoO anyway.

2) MEE works both ways and is proven to be exploitable by bouncing aggro between the party members.

3) MEE is not affected by action cooldown and has no internal cooldown. It just happens whenever the requirements are met. Which means MEE is the ultimate "it's magic" anti-movement tool. It's here only to prevent the combat from being more tactical via reactive repositioning. It serves no other purpose.

4) Combined with high movement speed that most enemies currently possess MEE promotes the abuse of various CC mechanics and strong openers in order to resolve fights as quickly as possible - ideally before enemies are able to get close. This in turn promotes metagaming and powerplaying over role-playing.

 

Sensuki is going to post a thread with a more detailed analysis.

 

1) Rogues, Wizards, Barbarians all have tools to be more mobile. Fighters are also mobile by knocking down a target, thus breaking the Engagement and can re-position. I think there are other spells, talents, passives, that makes Disengagement less "immobile" and allows you to escape a Disengagement Attack without any problem. In essence: You react, you use skill, you re-position.

2) Sounds like an "Exploit/Abuse" a la "Potential Bug & Balance Fix".

3) There are reactive re-positioning, but perhaps there should be more reactive re-positioning incentives.

4) Nope. It's one way to deal with combat, it's one way to play the game. Shevek demonstrates in his Video that it promotes just as much Select All->Auto-Attack as well. The game promotes you to play like you want to play... who is it that finds these metagaming and powerplaying events? Does that not mean that... the one finding them is trying to metagame/powerplay?

Edited November 30, 2014 by Osvir

[Sarex]

4) Nope. It's one way to deal with combat, it's one way to play the game. Shevek demonstrates in his Video that it promotes just as much Select All->Auto-Attack as well. The game promotes you to play like you want to play... who is it that finds these metagaming and powerplaying events? Does that not mean that... the one finding them is trying to metagame/powerplay?

 

Just one problem with that, Josh was against metagaming/powerplay and said that all the changes he made to the combat were going to remove that. So what now? We got bad combat and we can still metagame/powerplay...

[Osvir]

It's Beta.

 

EDIT: I'd prefer a functional Combat Log as well, and that some bugs are gone, because that's not what the game was pitched to be about <- that is a snide parallell. It's beta.

Edited November 30, 2014 by Osvir

[Sarex]

It's Beta.

 

Ah the magical "It's beta"! So you think that in the final game it will be impossible to metagame/powerplay?

[Osvir]

Nope. I think that you can metagame/powerplay any game, there's almost always a loophole that the Player finds (I can't think of any Single Player game that does not become metagame-ish or powerplay-ish after understanding the system more), that the developer didn't think about.

For instance, a famous example:
- We have yet to create an AI that defeats the world champion in chess! Is it because this chess player is the master of metagame/powerplay, or because we simply can't make an AI good enough?

EDIT: My point, though, is that I'm not 100% sure that we see is what we get. It's a work in progress after all, is combat fully implemented? And does this mean that no balance tweaks, AI adjustments, bugs and such will be in? Are the bugs features? Are those exploits features? That's what I mean, this is a beta, not a feature complete game. It's a loading screen, boiling water for the unfinished potatoes, a steak just put into the frying pan.

You gotta let it cook a bit, it's raw.

Edited November 30, 2014 by Osvir

[Sarex]

Nope. I think that you can metagame/powerplay any game, there's almost always a loophole that the Player finds (I can't think of any Single Player game that does not become metagame-ish or powerplay-ish after understanding the system more), that the developer didn't think about.

 

For instance, a famous example:

- We have yet to create an AI that defeats the world champion in chess! Is it because this chess player is the master of metagame/powerplay, or because we simply can't make an AI good enough?

 

EDIT: My point, though, is that I'm not 100% sure that we see is what we get. It's a work in progress after all, is combat fully implemented? And does this mean that no balance tweaks, AI adjustments, bugs and such will be in? Are the bugs features? Are those exploits features? That's what I mean, this is a beta, not a feature complete game. It's a loading screen, boiling water for the unfinished potatoes, a steak just put into the frying pan.

 

You gotta let it cook a bit, it's raw.

 

Ok we agree on that. But then what was the point of all these changes to the combat then. Instead of changing the combat so drastically from the IE games for the sake of avoiding metagaming/powerplay the dev's time could have been spent on so many better things.

[Sensuki]

Osvir thinks Wild Sprint is a good ability, case closed.

[Osvir]

I think it is a useful and fun ability

@Sarex: I don't know, it's a Backer Beta, a slice of the cake in a non-spoiler area, mid-game with little content. It is heavily taken out of context of the full and real game. Combat is more than just encounters between level 5-8.

Edited November 30, 2014 by Osvir

[Sarex]

@Sarex: I don't know, it's a Backer Beta, a slice of the cake in a non-spoiler area, mid-game with little content. It is heavily taken out of context of the full and real game. Combat is more than just encounters between level 5-8.

 

Fair enough, but you still didn't answer my question. Also, I don't see how more content will change the core concept of combat or the poor AI or any of the other flaws present, it may at best overshadow them with other things, but that isn't really good either and personally I don't expect it to happen.

Edited November 30, 2014 by Sarex

[Osvir]

"I don't know" was my answer. I like the combat, and thus my answer will be colored off that. I like the changes, so... "what was the point of all the changes?" uuh... I don't know how to answer the question, is what I'm saying, because I like the combat. It could be improved upon, tweaked, balanced, AI improvements etc.

Will it? I don't know, most games I play I feel the same about.

Edited November 30, 2014 by Osvir