First Impressions (v364)

[Skie Nightfall]

When talking about a successor to an IE game I'm thinking: scope, story, character progression, classic roleplay, party based (unlike NWN or DA), etc'.

Can't say combat out of all things is the first thing that comes to my mind -.-

Edited November 28, 2014 by Skie Nightfall

[Sensuki]

You're a storyfan and I'm a combatfan.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Tale
TV Edit

[prodigydancer]

they'd like some freedom of expression

at the expense of their backers?

 

Of course it's not my place to judge so I'll confine myself to a mere observation: it doesn't really sound like a fair deal. Especially considering the sub-par results we've seen so far.

[Endrosz]

 

they'd like some freedom of expression

at the expense of their backers?

 

Of course it's not my place to judge so I'll confine myself to a mere observation: it doesn't really sound like a fair deal. Especially considering the sub-par results we've seen so far.

 

 

This is a much discussed aspect of crowdfunding. It's still open to interpretation whether the makers of a crowdfunded product are "slaves" to the will of the crowd, or did they receive a kind of grandma's gift to chase a shared dream with great personal freedom? Those are the two ends of the spectrum.

 

---

 

I also want to reinforce Shevek on one point: Forum consensus is nowhere near representative. About 90%** of the people who play a game will never, ever visit the game's forum, blog, Facebook page etc. But their opinion is no less valuable than those who write 10 posts/day. They are still players. And in this day of overwhelming social media connections it might sound unbelievable, but it's actually very hard to get a representative opinion because of this. There are many, many people who simply buy, install and play. The game doesn't become a part of the daily routine. The people who do engage in discussion are usually the hardcore ones, who play a lot, replay it again and again, and they tend to have a skewed vision of what the game is.

 

Go into this forum's member list, and start checking out the ones who are backers. You will find a lot of people who didn't even visit these boards since the crowdfunding period. Yet their ""casual"" -- double quote on purpose -- opinion of the game is no less valuable than yours or mine.

 

 

** I'm pulling this data from a PAX panel done by community managers of various popular games, like League of Legends. It was an eye-opening session, to say the least.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Endrosz

[Sensuki]

PAX Panel and League of Legends ... hahah

[Namutree]

When talking about a successor to an IE game I'm thinking: scope, story, character progression, classic roleplay, party based (unlike NWN or DA), etc'.

Can't say combat out of all things is the first thing that comes to my mind -.-

A) Scope is not a strong point of the IE games. There are many rpgs with a larger scope.

 

B) Story is not a strong point of the IE games. Planescape Torment is the only IE game with a strong story. IWD1/IWD2 had bare minimum stories, and the story of BG1/BG2 was cliche and had serious lore inconsistencies.

 

C) Character progression is not a strong point of the IE games. In IWD1/IWD2 there is no character progression since all the party members are player generated. In BG1 there basically is none. In BG2 there is a small amount, but still nothing impressive. Torment is maybe the only one with decent character progression.

 

D) The IE games were never great in this regard either. In BG1 you are often only given 1 of 3 choices; all of which have the same result. The game literally opens up with a narrator telling you how you feel. This happens more than once. In BG2 it's better, but not by much. IWD1/IWD2 aren't very good for this either as the game is too linear to allow any real choice. Finally; Torment doesn't even let you choose your race, past, or even appearance. Not much good for role-playing. You are the nameless one; no role-play allowed. Not to mention there is only 1 ending for these games except BG2 (minor exception for Torment as well, but both endings are extremely similar). 

 

E) Party based. Well, yeah. That is one of the strengths of the IE games. Too bad poe won't be great in this area since the classes play the same outside of combat, and you can't even multi-class making your options pretty limited. 

Edited November 28, 2014 by Namutree

[prodigydancer]

 About 90%** of the people who play a game will never, ever visit the game's forum, blog, Facebook page etc. But their opinion is no less valuable than those who write 10 posts/day.

Wait, you've lost me here. How is their opinion valuable if they CBA even to voice it? For all we know they don't have any opinion at all.

[archangel979]

It is well known only 10% of players ever visit forums of the games and such. And only 10% of those post anything. 

 

I already said that during the completely useless combat xp polls that mean **** because they only ask those 1% what they think about combat xp. 

 

It would be a good idea for OE to try to make some polls for all KS backers to see where they stand on some more hotly debated issues. Forum feedback is not good enough if they care to satisfy most of the backers. 

[Trodat]

I also want to reinforce Shevek on one point: Forum consensus is nowhere near representative. About 90%** of the people who play a game will never, ever visit the game's forum, blog, Facebook page etc. But their opinion is no less valuable than those who write 10 posts/day. They are still players.

 

These people don't even care about the games mechanics. Just make easy so easy that they can finish the game, problem solved. This way we could still have interesting systems and mechanics. Like it was stated by Sawyer " people liked the IE games because they were isometric and had cool locations". So, "casuals" could still be enjoying this game same way they enjoyed BG or IWD.

I guess in reality all of these choices have more to do with Sawyer's personal opinions about BG or IWD. He didn't like the stuff that many people absolutely loved.

[Endrosz]

Wait, you've lost me here. How is their opinion valuable if they CBA even to voice it? For all we know they don't have any opinion at all.

This is the conundrum of community management -- there are a lot of voices, but those are not entirely representative. It takes effort to uncover those unsaid opinions.

 

One of the things developers can do to solve this conundrum is to bring in fresh focus groups during development, every week or two. People who have never played the game before, and their minds are not tainted by locked judgments. You'll get a much better spread of data that way than if you just listen to the beta testers. I learned this while I was a beta tester on a game.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Endrosz

[Trodat]

One of the things developers can do to solve this conundrum is to bring in fresh focus groups during development, every week or two. People who have never played the game before, and their minds are not tainted by locked judgments. You'll get a much better spread of data that way than if you just listen to the beta testers. I learned this while I was a beta tester on a game.

 

Are you talking about people who were backers or just random gamers?

Most people have terrible opinions, (can be seen even here on backer forums) so I don't see that doing any good.

[Jfk003]

 

I also want to reinforce Shevek on one point: Forum consensus is nowhere near representative. About 90%** of the people who play a game will never, ever visit the game's forum, blog, Facebook page etc. But their opinion is no less valuable than those who write 10 posts/day. They are still players.

 

These people don't even care about the games mechanics. Just make easy so easy that they can finish the game, problem solved. This way we could still have interesting systems and mechanics. Like it was stated by Sawyer " people liked the IE games because they were isometric and had cool locations". So, "casuals" could still be enjoying this game same way they enjoyed BG or IWD.

I guess in reality all of these choices have more to do with Sawyer's personal opinions about BG or IWD. He didn't like the stuff that many people absolutely loved.

 

 

I really have a problem with what you say and agree with Endrosz. Community is NOT representative.

Also, you do split players into casuals and hardcore. But let me tell you, do you really think a casual would just play this ? We are all hardcore with this, because it implies that you knew Baldur's gates (just the name is making casual go away already), and frankly the look of the game screams "not casual at all".

 

Casual to me is: I play fifa, I play COD. Rest assured, there are not casual in that sense here.

 

But then, there are some people for which every single stat and spell of the wizard count. For instance, I'm not like that. I love BG1, backed this, but I am amused about the wars concerning stats. Which does not mean I'm right or wrong. Just, we focus on different things. I for instance would love the animations to get to 2014 standard - you would say maybe: who cares.

 

Just priorities. Now, enter the dev team: what can they do with such different opinions ? Well they discuss it internally, change priorities. Community is some help, but is not representative. As I said, it's my first day on these boards and most topics just don't speak to me like * at all *.

 

I would have been part of that massive silent 90% of players who back the project but won't dip into the murky forum waters. Only that I finally did because some of the things I read I wanted to answer too.

Indeed there are lots of silent but valid opinion. The biggest work is to sort these out, not read the boards. That is the least of their worries I think. We can only try to be constructive.

[Endrosz]

I can't really answer your question. For the game where I was a beta tester, it was people who had an interest in the game -- not necessarily big.

[prodigydancer]

B) Story is not a strong point of the IE games.

Purely subjective. I like Planescape more than FR and that's why I prefer PS:T. But I wouldn't rate PS:T story higher than BG/BG2 story. To me they're both equally excellent. And no, just because they had villains in BG and BG2 doesn't mean the story was cliché.

 

C) Character progression is not a strong point of the IE games. In IWD1/IWD2 there is no character progression since all the party members are player generated.

I think you mix up progression with development here. IWD/IWD2 didn't have character development (and they didn't need it being hack'n'slash RPGs) but they sure had character progression. BG2 and PS:T had both.

 

D) Finally; Torment doesn't even let you choose your race, past, or even appearance. Not much good for role-playing. You are the nameless one; no role-play allowed.

I must say you have a weird opinion on what RP is.

 

---

 

So it seems you didn't like pretty much anything about IE games. Why are you backing PoE then?

Edited November 28, 2014 by prodigydancer

[Sensuki]

bring in fresh focus groups during development

HAHAHAHAHAAH

[Corto81]

I haven't since the 2nd version, and I gotta say, the progress is HUGE.

I'm glad that the devs are listening and reading and improving the game.

 

There's still a lot of work to be done, both in combat and other aspects (I honestly can't see characters from the surroundings at times, and I see that's a common complaint).

[Namutree]

 

So it seems you didn't like pretty much anything about IE games. Why are you backing PoE then?

 

Why did I like them? Here's a list:

 

1) Lots of classes and class combinations! I like coming up with a team. Playing as a mage/thief is awesome. Do I want 3 Fighters? What about Fighters who dual class?What about a team of all multi-class thieves? These are all awesome questions to me. Every time I play I experiment with a new team.

 

2) Plenty of races. I like playing as different races. Really get's me feeling like I'm in a fantasy world. I'm a human in real life; why would I ever want to play one in a fantasy game? So many rpgs shoehorn you into the role of a human; I appreciate that the IE games (except Torment) actually let you be something different.

 

3) I like the UI. Cool pictures representing me are more interesting than 3D models. I find the overall interface to be very user-friendly as well.

 

4) The combat! IE combat is awesome! It's exciting and tactical. Tons of options, and fast pace if the fight is in your favor. I'm a big fan of RTS games; so it's no surprise I like the RTS style combat. The magic system is awesome too!

 

5) I still like the story. It's just not amazing. It doesn't bother me. Sure the plot to BG of a bad guy killing your mentor/father (in BG1 a father/mentor multi-class) has been told a million times, and the idea of a special kindred fighting 'till only one remains has been told plenty of times too (HINT: THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE!); even so, the plot doesn't offend me or anything. 

 

6) I really like the characters in BG1/BG2. They don't have much development (with a few exceptions: Jaheira for example), but they are mostly cool. 

Edited November 28, 2014 by Namutree

[archangel979]

Except there does not need to be only one. At least not in BG1 when that is only thing you know. Sarevok plan was to create mass murder and that way ascend to his father's throne. 

Actually that general storyline was used by Bioware in most of their future games. 

 

Games that broke that most noticeably were PST, MotB and Dragonfall (not Bioware games). I didn't mention IWD1 and IWD2 as they are not really story games that revolve around one main character.

Edited November 28, 2014 by archangel979

[Shevek]

And because of people with your attitude Shevek, all we get is popamole terrible games these days, you will eat a bowl of dung handed to you and ask for seconds.

Lol, sure man.

[Namutree]

Except there does not need to be only one. 

The hint was a reference to The Highlander where semi-divine siblings of a sort fight for power. I get that's it's not exactly the same, but that general premise is used a lot in fantasy.

 

 

Sarevok plan was to create mass murder and that way ascend to his father's throne. 

 

They all add a twist. That doesn't make it non-cliche.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Namutree

[Sedrefilos]

 

When talking about a successor to an IE game I'm thinking: scope, story, character progression, classic roleplay, party based (unlike NWN or DA), etc'.

Can't say combat out of all things is the first thing that comes to my mind -.-

A) Scope is not a strong point of the IE games. There are many rpgs with a larger scope.

 

B) Story is not a strong point of the IE games. Planescape Torment is the only IE game with a strong story. IWD1/IWD2 had bare minimum stories, and the story of BG1/BG2 was cliche and had serious lore inconsistencies.

 

C) Character progression is not a strong point of the IE games. In IWD1/IWD2 there is no character progression since all the party members are player generated. In BG1 there basically is none. In BG2 there is a small amount, but still nothing impressive. Torment is maybe the only one with decent character progression.

 

D) The IE games were never great in this regard either. In BG1 you are often only given 1 of 3 choices; all of which have the same result. The game literally opens up with a narrator telling you how you feel. This happens more than once. In BG2 it's better, but not by much. IWD1/IWD2 aren't very good for this either as the game is too linear to allow any real choice. Finally; Torment doesn't even let you choose your race, past, or even appearance. Not much good for role-playing. You are the nameless one; no role-play allowed. Not to mention there is only 1 ending for these games except BG2 (minor exception for Torment as well, but both endings are extremely similar). 

 

E) Party based. Well, yeah. That is one of the strengths of the IE games. Too bad poe won't be great in this area since the classes play the same outside of combat, and you can't even multi-class making your options pretty limited. 

 

Every IE game seperately loses somewhere because it focuses somewhere else; true. But PoE is supposed to be a mix of all good aspects from each IE game (+ some new interesting things)

At this point, combat seems to be the less done right of all good aspects of the IE games (for me combat was just good back then, but now seems way outdated). Of course I don't play the beta, but it seems common among testers that it needs work.

If Obsidian manages to nail all the other aspects, I could do with a not-so-great combat after all.

[Darkman]

 

I also want to reinforce Shevek on one point: Forum consensus is nowhere near representative. About 90%** of the people who play a game will never, ever visit the game's forum, blog, Facebook page etc. But their opinion is no less valuable than those who write 10 posts/day. They are still players.

 

These people don't even care about the games mechanics. Just make easy so easy that they can finish the game, problem solved. This way we could still have interesting systems and mechanics. Like it was stated by Sawyer " people liked the IE games because they were isometric and had cool locations". So, "casuals" could still be enjoying this game same way they enjoyed BG or IWD.

I guess in reality all of these choices have more to do with Sawyer's personal opinions about BG or IWD. He didn't like the stuff that many people absolutely loved.

 

Funny how you like to simplify the opinion of so many people you never met. Most people probably are not spending their time on the forums of a game still in beta. However, that should not say anything about how they experience or play a game!

 

Have been lurking here a few times, but should not do that too often, its really depressive. If I should read all posts made by certain people I think I would end up in an asylum and write a statement that OE is to blame for my mental illness for the terrible game they are making right now. Its too much like DA:O and that game was SUPERcrap!!

 

Do all those people talking **** about a combat system thats not an exact copy of the IE games really expected PoE to be just that? An exact copy of a game and its mechanics thats more then a decade old.....? Please tell me you are not serious?

 

Also annoying are people stating opinions as they are facts. Don't like that at all. Thats an opinion.

 

BTW did many playthroughs of BG I and BG II and also played DA:O, think they are both great games. Its possible, really.

 

Here is where I end my first and last post. Hopefully I will enjoy a great game in about hallf a year.

[Messier-31]

 

More colors

 

Why there is nothing yellow-ish?

[Sensuki]

Dunno.

[IndiraLightfoot]

"No yellowish? Die!"

Edited November 28, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot