The culture of Rape, Bill Cosby Story

[Longknife]

 

To be fair, some of the problems Longknife mentioned are even present in the CDC study I linked (i.e. equating sex while under the influence with rape).

 

 

Page 13 has a detailed breakdown: 6.6% experienced complete forced penetration, 2.5% attempted forced penetration, 3.4% completed alcohol/drug-facilitated penetration; 9.8% was pressured in nonphysical ways (abusing influence/authority, threats of ending a relationship - this probably should've had a more detailed breakdown), 6.4% experienced unwanted sexual contact (fondling, forced kissing, grabbing body parts).

 

 

Someone should crunch the numbers there.

[Gfted1]

 

Too bad we don't take a drop of blood from every single person born and add it into a database. With everyone's DNA on file we could probably cut all crime by a huge percentage. #abrightertommorrow

We could also monitor everyone in and outside of their home. Implanting gps would be nice and lets not forget a kill switch. All problems solved.

 

 

I understand the extreme you are going to but why would your DNA being on file be an invasion of your privacy?

[Blarghagh]

 

To be fair, some of the problems Longknife mentioned are even present in the CDC study I linked (i.e. equating sex while under the influence with rape).

 

Page 13 has a detailed breakdown: 6.6% experienced complete forced penetration, 2.5% attempted forced penetration, 3.4% completed alcohol/drug-facilitated penetration; 9.8% was pressured in nonphysical ways (abusing influence/authority, threats of ending a relationship - this probably should've had a more detailed breakdown), 6.4% experienced unwanted sexual contact (fondling, forced kissing, grabbing body parts).

 

 

The fact that this was a survey probably means questions were leading or misinterpreted and a lot of them can be defined differently. How about forced kissing, here's a rather embarrassing story:

 

I struck out with this girl, we were having fun, a bit buzzed, and I thought was into me and I kissed her, only for her to pull away and tell me she wasn't into me that way. I explained I misread her reactions and apologized. She's now a friend of mine. Since she didn't give me obvious consent and I kissed her, does that mean I sexually assaulted her?

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

To be fair, some of the problems Longknife mentioned are even present in the CDC study I linked (i.e. equating sex while under the influence with rape).

 

Page 13 has a detailed breakdown: 6.6% experienced complete forced penetration, 2.5% attempted forced penetration, 3.4% completed alcohol/drug-facilitated penetration; 9.8% was pressured in nonphysical ways (abusing influence/authority, threats of ending a relationship - this probably should've had a more detailed breakdown), 6.4% experienced unwanted sexual contact (fondling, forced kissing, grabbing body parts).

 

 

The fact that this was a survey probably means questions were leading or misinterpreted and a lot of them can be defined differently. How about forced kissing, here's a rather embarrassing story:

 

I struck out with this girl, we were having fun, a bit buzzed, and I thought was into me and I kissed her, only for her to pull away and tell me she wasn't into me that way. I explained I misread her reactions and apologized. She's now a friend of mine. Since she didn't give me obvious consent and I kissed her, does that mean I sexually assaulted her?

 

 

Page 85 lists the questions. I don't think "How many people have ever used physical force or threats to physically harm you to

make you have vaginal sex?/ {if male} perform anal sex?/ receive anal sex?/ make you perform oral sex?/ make you receive oral sex?/ put their fingers or an object in your {if female: vagina or} anus?" (each their separate option) is particularly leading, or can be misinterpreted that way.

Edited November 21, 2014 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Blarghagh]

Because I specifically meant the clearest definition on the list was certainly leading and poorly defined when I said "probably" and "a lot".

 

Alum, I like you but respectfully, your debating style can be very frustrating because you very often seem to go out of your way to misrepresent whoever you are talking to as something a lot worse. It's not quite a strawman, but you're definitely putting some straw padding on me.

[Malcador]

 

 

Too bad we don't take a drop of blood from every single person born and add it into a database. With everyone's DNA on file we could probably cut all crime by a huge percentage. #abrightertommorrow

We could also monitor everyone in and outside of their home. Implanting gps would be nice and lets not forget a kill switch. All problems solved.

 

 

I understand the extreme you are going to but why would your DNA being on file be an invasion of your privacy?

 

I've heard people concerned it can be used to frame people, though that might be tricky. Not sure myself but I think it a better policy to ask "why do you want to know?" rather than "why don't you want me to know?"

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Because I specifically meant the clearest definition on the list was certainly leading and poorly defined when I said "probably" and "a lot".

 

Alum, I like you but respectfully, your debating style can be very frustrating because you very often seem to go out of your way to misrepresent whoever you are talking to as something a lot worse. It's not quite a strawman, but you're definitely putting some straw padding on me.

 

...I have just provided you with a detailed breakdown on what numbers are there separately for the individual categories of complete forced penetration under threats of physical violence (6.6%), attempted forced penetration under threats of physical violence (2.5%), completed forced penetration under the influence of drugs (also counting alcohol, which is technically a drug) (3.4%), while proving that it was a very clearly phrased and not in any way leading question.

 

Even if all the other options are bull**** on the list, just the sum of completed and attempted forced penetration under threat of physical violence is a whopping 9.1% of the surveyed population.

 

Please forgive me if I favor this study, which is publically available and discloses both its methodology and a detailed breakdown of results over all the others that aren't currently at hand and can't be as easily inspected.

Edited November 21, 2014 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Gfted1]

Not sure myself but I think it a better policy to ask "why do you want to know?" rather than "why don't you want me to know?"

I don't fully understand your meaning, can you restate?

[Blarghagh]

I'm not talking about the forced penetration parts, I didn't even mention that. I'm talking about at what level of inebriation does it become nonconsensual when someone says yes, when does a badly timed kiss become "forced kissing", etc. You said yourself some parts could use a more detailed breakdown. Your response to my concerns about forced kissing was to say I implied a question about forced penetration was leading. It's either misreading or misrepresentation.

Edited November 21, 2014 by TrueNeutral

[aluminiumtrioxid]

I'm not talking about the forced penetration parts, I didn't even mention that. I'm talking about at what level of inebriation does it become nonconsensual, when does a badly timed kiss become "forced kissing", etc. You said yourself some parts could use a more detailed breakdown.

 

Edit:  Your response to my concerns about forced kissing was to say I implied a question about forced penetration was leading. It's either misreading or misrepresentation.

 

 

Yes, but those parts are actually pretty irrelevant to the core statement of "nearly 10% of the (female) population has been a victim of rape or attempted rape as defined by forced penetration under a threat of physical violence".

 

Edit: granted, the USA admittedly has a problem with rape, so it's probably a lower number in other western countries (explaining, say, Longknife's different experiences - he's from Germany, if I remember correctly).

 

Edit2, in response to the edit: yes, I've actually misread your post about leading questions (have read "the questions were leading" instead of "questions were leading"), although I didn't, in fact, say that you implied the forced penetration question was misleading. What I've tried to point out by citing the questions was that the parts of the survey related to the "close to 10%" figure weren't leading or open to interpretation. Regardless, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Edited November 21, 2014 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Malcador]

I don't fully understand your meaning, can you restate?

Well, people should have a really good reason why they want to put your DNA in a database, rather than asking me for reasons they shouldn't. Saying it'll make police work easier isn't all that good of one to me. Risks of having a government agency with your DNA on file might be alarmist, thinking of possible negatives (some loon deciding eugenics is a great idea again, for example).

[Gfted1]

Well, people should have a really good reason why they want to put your DNA in a database, rather than asking me for reasons they shouldn't. Saying it'll make police work easier isn't all that good of one to me. Risks of having a government agency with your DNA on file might be alarmist, thinking of possible negatives (some loon deciding eugenics is a great idea again, for example).

I can see where youre coming from but my idea wasn't to make police work easier, that's just a byproduct. My idea was more aligned with reducing almost all crime in one fell swoop. Almost every action we perform leaves behind some DNA via blood, hair, skin cells, etc... meaning it is almost impossible to interact with an object or person without leaving your DNA behind. If that DNA could be collected and instantly point to the bad guy then I think that would be a watershed moment in crime fighting.

[Walsingham]

Filing everyone's DNA would make the database large and unweildy and eat budget while adding millions of perfectly harmless people.

 

In the UK evidence is collected from even minor crimes (note this is a local force policy thing), and stored. Years ago I helped the cops with a rape case where the perpetrator was caught thanks to them having smashed a phone box the year before and cut their hand. They were caught for that crime, and subsequently got caught for the rape.

 

Plus, and I don't think I'm being needlessly coy by not specifying, sexual violence doesn't have to leave behind 'red hand' DNA. Because in the most serious cases it's either premeditated or frankly just about violence.

 

Note from the old and wise: don't look into this area in any detail unless you are happy losing your innocence. I've seen some awful things, but nothing comes close to the sheer parboiled evil of predatory rapists for frequency and sadistic malevolence.

[TrashMan]

 

(I also love how Trashman just went "bull****" and provided no counter-arguments whatsoever, as if he just wanted to prove my "his higher cognitive functions simply shut down when encountering even vaguely feminist-sounding terminology" theory.)

 

I said BS because it's BS of such magnitude it requires no further deliberation or explanation.

 

Have you any idea just how much 1 out of 5 or even 10 is? That's a bloody epidemic. That number is redicolous and can't have a real connection to reality.

[Hurlshort]

 

I am asking these questions because 1 in 6 means that every sixth girl i ever talked to have been treated like Tuesday Weld in Once upon a time in America. That just sounds way too high, because that means roughly 1 in 6 guys have done such a thing.

 

I'm not sure that it works exactly like that, since clearly you will have repeat offenders among the males.

 

 

I am pretty surprised how quick some of you are to deny that this is a real problem, considering you all spend a lot of time on the internet.  There is a tremendous amount of disturbing bleep out there.  Have you ever been to a club where a girl is way too intoxicated?  I've seen groups of men move in like moths to a flame, and I can tell you, they aren't going over to her to be gentlemen.

 

I guess it is somewhat refreshing that so many of you doubt these numbers, because maybe that means you all are good guys who treat women respectfully.  That's important.  But that also means we should believe women when they say they have been assaulted.   

[Walsingham]

 

 

I am asking these questions because 1 in 6 means that every sixth girl i ever talked to have been treated like Tuesday Weld in Once upon a time in America. That just sounds way too high, because that means roughly 1 in 6 guys have done such a thing.

 

I'm not sure that it works exactly like that, since clearly you will have repeat offenders among the males.

 

 

I am pretty surprised how quick some of you are to deny that this is a real problem, considering you all spend a lot of time on the internet.  There is a tremendous amount of disturbing bleep out there.  Have you ever been to a club where a girl is way too intoxicated?  I've seen groups of men move in like moths to a flame, and I can tell you, they aren't going over to her to be gentlemen.

 

I guess it is somewhat refreshing that so many of you doubt these numbers, because maybe that means you all are good guys who treat women respectfully.  That's important.  But that also means we should believe women when they say they have been assaulted.   

 

 

I have to concur with Hurlshot when it comes to scale. I'm lucky enough to know some pretty strong women, and one of the most awful things I learned as we became friends is how many had been forced (or intimidated using force) into sexual activity.

 

I reject the notion that most men think rape is OK. But this isn't like marriage. One male who is either ignorant or just doesn't care can affect multiple women. The more they do it, and don't get caught or otherwise stopped, the more they think it's OK, and the more they do it.

 

Try also to imagine what rape is like to the victim. I'm not sure you can. I'm extremely fortunate in that I have been threatened with rape and got out of it (a foreign policeman, but that's another story). I'm not a weak person, but when I realised it was on the cards I got within a millimetre of going completely to pieces. It was absolutely bloody awful. 100 times worse than knowing you're going to get a beating.

[Meshugger]

 

 

I am asking these questions because 1 in 6 means that every sixth girl i ever talked to have been treated like Tuesday Weld in Once upon a time in America. That just sounds way too high, because that means roughly 1 in 6 guys have done such a thing.

 

I'm not sure that it works exactly like that, since clearly you will have repeat offenders among the males.

 

 

I am pretty surprised how quick some of you are to deny that this is a real problem, considering you all spend a lot of time on the internet.  There is a tremendous amount of disturbing bleep out there.  Have you ever been to a club where a girl is way too intoxicated?  I've seen groups of men move in like moths to a flame, and I can tell you, they aren't going over to her to be gentlemen.

 

I guess it is somewhat refreshing that so many of you doubt these numbers, because maybe that means you all are good guys who treat women respectfully.  That's important.  But that also means we should believe women when they say they have been assaulted.   

 

 

I haven't seen the behaviour that you describe here in scando-land so i can only say that this sounds like an american problem. Perhaps the ugly side of puritanism.

[Gorgon]

There have been similar cases poping up in the UK of unreported and systematic abuse.I tend to think that rape reports are probably more true than not simply because of the difficult nature of being a reporter of rape in the legal system.

[Orogun01]

 

 

 

I am asking these questions because 1 in 6 means that every sixth girl i ever talked to have been treated like Tuesday Weld in Once upon a time in America. That just sounds way too high, because that means roughly 1 in 6 guys have done such a thing.

 

I'm not sure that it works exactly like that, since clearly you will have repeat offenders among the males.

 

 

I am pretty surprised how quick some of you are to deny that this is a real problem, considering you all spend a lot of time on the internet.  There is a tremendous amount of disturbing bleep out there.  Have you ever been to a club where a girl is way too intoxicated?  I've seen groups of men move in like moths to a flame, and I can tell you, they aren't going over to her to be gentlemen.

 

I guess it is somewhat refreshing that so many of you doubt these numbers, because maybe that means you all are good guys who treat women respectfully.  That's important.  But that also means we should believe women when they say they have been assaulted.   

 

 

I have to concur with Hurlshot when it comes to scale. I'm lucky enough to know some pretty strong women, and one of the most awful things I learned as we became friends is how many had been forced (or intimidated using force) into sexual activity.

 

I reject the notion that most men think rape is OK. But this isn't like marriage. One male who is either ignorant or just doesn't care can affect multiple women. The more they do it, and don't get caught or otherwise stopped, the more they think it's OK, and the more they do it.

 

Try also to imagine what rape is like to the victim. I'm not sure you can. I'm extremely fortunate in that I have been threatened with rape and got out of it (a foreign policeman, but that's another story). I'm not a weak person, but when I realised it was on the cards I got within a millimetre of going completely to pieces. It was absolutely bloody awful. 100 times worse than knowing you're going to get a beating.

 

First timers, :sighs:

[Volourn]

"I guess it is somewhat refreshing that so many of you doubt these numbers, because maybe that means you all are good guys who treat women respectfully.  That's important.  But that also means we should believe women when they say they have been assaulted.  "

 

NEWSFLASH: Just like all men are not rapists not all women are honest angels who never lie. What is with this need to put women on a pedestal? That is so condescending towards women. Women are human beings. Their personality, morals, and beliefs vary.

 

\Why are people like you so sexist?

 

\This combo idea that men are just rape monsters and women are fragile little glass princesses is sic does no favors for anybody.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Volourn

[Hurlshort]

I think we should also point out that men can be taken advantage of just as easily. Sure, it is going to much less common, and there is a macho culture that makes reporting even more rare than with women, but it should not be ignored.

[Darkpriest]

I don't know how to feel about this situation, but I do find putting forward accusations after so many years a bit odd.

 

For one, you are not going to prove anything, even if something happened. You are basically just slandering someone and putting yourself at a risk of getting sued for this.

 

Second, I do not know anything about the women in question here, and I would not be surprised if this is their way to get some air time and cash. Yes, people can be like this, especially when it comes down to show business and people who got cash only for their looks. (why do you think models try to marry off rich people? Have you ever seen in media a model that married a casual guy working as salesman or accountant?)

 

I would not be surprised however if this would be the truth, because show business is full of situations where someone goes to bed with someone else just to get some favors and move forward his/her career (yes, guys also sleep with bat **** ugly women producers or explore their gay side). I would not be surprised however that they would be also false accusations, because he said that he can boost her career, went to bed with her and she did that willingly, but then he just forgot about her and now it's her way of getting revenge, because being a victim of a sexual assault is so mainstream.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Darkpriest

[Walsingham]

 

 

 

 

I am asking these questions because 1 in 6 means that every sixth girl i ever talked to have been treated like Tuesday Weld in Once upon a time in America. That just sounds way too high, because that means roughly 1 in 6 guys have done such a thing.

 

I'm not sure that it works exactly like that, since clearly you will have repeat offenders among the males.

 

 

I am pretty surprised how quick some of you are to deny that this is a real problem, considering you all spend a lot of time on the internet.  There is a tremendous amount of disturbing bleep out there.  Have you ever been to a club where a girl is way too intoxicated?  I've seen groups of men move in like moths to a flame, and I can tell you, they aren't going over to her to be gentlemen.

 

I guess it is somewhat refreshing that so many of you doubt these numbers, because maybe that means you all are good guys who treat women respectfully.  That's important.  But that also means we should believe women when they say they have been assaulted.   

 

 

I have to concur with Hurlshot when it comes to scale. I'm lucky enough to know some pretty strong women, and one of the most awful things I learned as we became friends is how many had been forced (or intimidated using force) into sexual activity.

 

I reject the notion that most men think rape is OK. But this isn't like marriage. One male who is either ignorant or just doesn't care can affect multiple women. The more they do it, and don't get caught or otherwise stopped, the more they think it's OK, and the more they do it.

 

Try also to imagine what rape is like to the victim. I'm not sure you can. I'm extremely fortunate in that I have been threatened with rape and got out of it (a foreign policeman, but that's another story). I'm not a weak person, but when I realised it was on the cards I got within a millimetre of going completely to pieces. It was absolutely bloody awful. 100 times worse than knowing you're going to get a beating.

 

First timers, :sighs:

 

 

Wait, what?

[Volourn]

"Sure, it is going to much less common"

 

Define 'much less'.

[Orogun01]

 

 

 

 

 

I am asking these questions because 1 in 6 means that every sixth girl i ever talked to have been treated like Tuesday Weld in Once upon a time in America. That just sounds way too high, because that means roughly 1 in 6 guys have done such a thing.

 

I'm not sure that it works exactly like that, since clearly you will have repeat offenders among the males.

 

 

I am pretty surprised how quick some of you are to deny that this is a real problem, considering you all spend a lot of time on the internet.  There is a tremendous amount of disturbing bleep out there.  Have you ever been to a club where a girl is way too intoxicated?  I've seen groups of men move in like moths to a flame, and I can tell you, they aren't going over to her to be gentlemen.

 

I guess it is somewhat refreshing that so many of you doubt these numbers, because maybe that means you all are good guys who treat women respectfully.  That's important.  But that also means we should believe women when they say they have been assaulted.   

 

 

I have to concur with Hurlshot when it comes to scale. I'm lucky enough to know some pretty strong women, and one of the most awful things I learned as we became friends is how many had been forced (or intimidated using force) into sexual activity.

 

I reject the notion that most men think rape is OK. But this isn't like marriage. One male who is either ignorant or just doesn't care can affect multiple women. The more they do it, and don't get caught or otherwise stopped, the more they think it's OK, and the more they do it.

 

Try also to imagine what rape is like to the victim. I'm not sure you can. I'm extremely fortunate in that I have been threatened with rape and got out of it (a foreign policeman, but that's another story). I'm not a weak person, but when I realised it was on the cards I got within a millimetre of going completely to pieces. It was absolutely bloody awful. 100 times worse than knowing you're going to get a beating.

 

First timers, :sighs:

 

 

Wait, what?

 

After a while you sort of tune it out or it doesn't bother you that much.