Drama and games journalism, soggy leg joint edition

[Hiro Protagonist]

There's no point in having a reasonable discussion with sites that wishes their audiences dead and think that they are racists, misogynists, terrorists and so on.

 

No, the only option is to kill those sites economically through informing their partners to drop their financial support and expose them as the frauds they are.

 

Then they can return to having a subsription model where they can have their circle-jerk of Dear Esters and Gone Home's for themselves, all while games and their creators are left alone to create what they wish.

 

I agree. It was more of a rhetorical question and shows the hypocrisy of the SJW's where they hold GG to a high standard but don't with their own views and/or sites they visit. Sites like Polygon might wither and die or they may stay alive gasping for air, the last vestiges of their SJW preaching, while the rest of us gamers carry on playing games.

 

You can't talk reasonably to people who don't want to engage in reasonable debate and talk all over you. We saw that with Brianna Wu talking over everyone. And the same with that article with Liz and Rex, where Rex showed his hypocrisy.

[BruceVC]

 

 

I can't stress enough how this is a logical and reasonable way to get GG to evolve to the next level of it being accepted by mainstream gaming publishers as a real medium to raise concerns in the gaming industry. You could never achieve this type of acceptance through Social Media as it is not tangible

 

 

You expect this site to open up a forum for all parties to have a reasonable discussion? How about sites like Polygon opening up their site for a forum to all and to have a reasonable discussion to raise concerns in the gaming industry? Wouldn't that have been a logical and reasonable way to get the gaming media to discuss the issues. Or don't you hold them up to the same standard as GG? And wouldn't you agree that the next step for the gaming media is to evolve with certain standards that all can agree with. You know like honesty, no bullying, no harassment and all this sort of stuff that different parts of the gaming media should be doing.

 

 

No Hiro, its clear to me you don't understand the role of gaming websites and there role in this GG furore

 

There is no expectation that any gaming website has to have discussions around the good and bad around GG. Many of these website like Polygon and RPS have been the targets of the GG outrage and since these websites are independently owned I can completely understand why they chose to not support GG. But the reality is I haven't seen any links that directly say " we at RPS don't like GG"  they have just decided to not post any stories around them or encourage discussions on there forums because they feel everything has been said that needs to be said

 

That's not the same thing as me saying "GG needs a website where we can discuss all topics about the purpose of GG, the good and the bad". The onus is on GG to get a message across about what they really stand and distance themselves from the extremist element. This is not the role of websites like Gamasutra and Polygon. These websites are fine with the fact that GG doesn't like them and they are prepared to deal with the consequences

 

GG should be asking "how can we get people like BruceVC to support us". And that first step is  a cohesive approach that allows proper debate. And twitter could never have achieved that. So I really do support this new GG websites because of the positive steps that can come from it

 

 

 

 

I didn't mean "This isn't your idea, other people also thought of it, stop trying to take the credit.", I meant "This isn't really the same concept as the one you were suggesting.".

 

Also, it doesn't really seem as if you understand it, but the whole anarchyish leaderless uncontrolled rabble is a pretty integral part of this whole thing for a decent amount of GGrs.

Acceptance by mainstreamers also isn't the most important thing, most of the older ones of us have gone through periods of being accused of satanism/otherwise being deeply disturbed by regulars, back then it was mainly more conservative/evangelical people, but being alienated by leftists really isn't that different, they just call you different forms of morally corrupt. If mainstreamers don't want to accept us, basically, f*** them.

 

 

Okay I see what you meant, yes I did misunderstand you.

 

And you right I don't understand how GG expects it going to achieve real meaningful change if it follows this whole " anarchyish leaderless uncontrolled rabble" because that's not something we can measure. You need some sort of real group that exists of real people who will stand by what they say and be prepared to engage in debate. This is why the website is such a good idea

 

Nameless Twitter vitriol will never achieve anything and in fact it just creates a dichotomy and resistance  between what changes GG wants to make and what it can realistically implement and effect

 

Now you might say " If mainstreamers don't want to accept us, basically, f*** them" but that's not going to get publishers and people that matter to take the GG objectives seriously because that kind of comment is just seen as radical  and will be dismissed by many people outside of this whole debate as " how can be engage with people who are so pugnacious "

Edited October 24, 2014 by BruceVC

[BruceVC]

There's no point in having a reasonable discussion with sites that wishes their audiences dead and think that they are racists, misogynists, terrorists and so on.

 

No, the only option is to kill those sites economically through informing their partners to drop their financial support and expose them as the frauds they are.

 

Then they can return to having a subsription model where they can have their circle-jerk of Dear Esters and Gone Home's for themselves, all while games and their creators are left alone to create what they wish.

 

I may not agree with that sentiment but I can understand it. So one of the objectives of GG is to basically close down websites that have been very critical of the movement. That's fine, but once again how do you think that will be achieved? The obvious answer is to get various companies to pull there sponsorship. But don't you think this would have already happened by now ? Like we saw with Intel and Gamasutra? So if sponsors were going to all pull there advertising based on this GG objective why hasn't it happened?

 

I can give you my reason why but I would prefer you gave me your view

[Nepenthe]

 

 

No Volo, you are still one of the few people who believes that and that type of perspective is just ignored by people who try to have this debate in a meaningful way

 

I feel that these SJW's aren't really feminists. It's just a title they've given themselves to be holier-than-thou. The situation with TFYC is proof that helping women get into the gaming industry isn't a goal of theirs. They're just a clique of hipster douches who want to be considered intellectuals, but don't want to bother learning what they're talking about. It's unfair to hold feminism in disdain based on these people. 

 

We've already seen with the Factual feminist and TFYC that these pretenders don't represent actual feminism.

 

 

I wish I could agree with your sentiment, but Hoff Sommers has been attacked for her "antifeminit viewpoints" by those claiming to be "real feminists" (the one's I'd liken to the group Volo is talking about) for way longer than GG has been around.

[Oerwinde]

Bruce is right about one thing, leaderless rabble accomplish nothing but chaos. Its why the Tea Party has half of congress pushing laws through for them and the Occupy movement achieved pretty much nothing in the long run. The GG website is a place where clear goals of the movement can be posted, rather than relying on random people on twitter, and with guys like TotalBiscuit on board, maybe some clear reasonable leadership can emerge.

[pmp10]

Sites like Polygon might wither and die or they may stay alive gasping for air, the last vestiges of their SJW preaching, while the rest of us gamers carry on playing games.

Those sites have been steadily increasing their views since gamergate began.

Either gamergate is not big enough to boycott anything or exposure brought in more readers.

 

There is no expectation that any gaming website has to have discussions around the good and bad around GG.

Gaming site? Perhaps not.

News site? Absolutely.

I expect journalists to report and discuss important topics relating to gaming industry.

[Hiro Protagonist]

No Hiro, its clear to me you don't understand the role of gaming websites and there role in this GG furore

 

There is no expectation that any gaming website has to have discussions around the good and bad around GG. Many of these website like Polygon and RPS have been the targets of the GG outrage and since these websites are independently owned I can completely understand why they chose to not support GG. But the reality is I haven't seen any links that directly say " we at RPS don't like GG"  they have just decided to not post any stories around them or encourage discussions on there forums because they feel everything has been said that needs to be said

 

That's not the same thing as me saying "GG needs a website where we can discuss all topics about the purpose of GG, the good and the bad". The onus is on GG to get a message across about what they really stand and distance themselves from the extremist element. This is not the role of websites like Gamasutra and Polygon. These websites are fine with the fact that GG doesn't like them and they are prepared to deal with the consequences

 

GG should be asking "how can we get people like BruceVC to support us". And that first step is  a cohesive approach that allows proper debate. And twitter could never have achieved that. So I really do support this new GG websites because of the positive steps that can come from it

 

Oh, I don't understand? It's clear to me Bruce, you're the one who doesn't understand. And it's clear to me you don't care about the standards of people from these gaming media sites and don't hold them accountable at all.

 

And there is no expectation to have a discussion about the standards of these gaming websites that GG has brought up? And these sites like Polygon and RPS and Gawker Media have shown that they will stop at nothing to throw insults at their audience and their sponsors. And you're all for that and don't hold them accountable. You're more interested in holding GG up to a higher standard and ignoring these gaming media sites and their hypocrisy.

 

And why shouldn't the gaming media sites want to discuss all topics about the purpose of good behaviour, honesty, integrity, the gaming industry, good and the bad? The onus is on these media sites to get a clear message across about what they really stand for and distance themselves from the extremist element. But then you say this is not the role of websites like Gamasutra and Polygon?. So you're okay with bullying and harassment from these sites? Good to see where you stand. You're all for bullies and having bullies throw insults at minorities, women, all sorts of people. And these gaming media websites are fine with the fact that they don't care about the issues GG has brought up with them throwing insults at their audience and sponsors and they are prepared to deal with the consequences? Good to see you're championing their cause for bullying and harassment.

 

These gaming websites should be asking "how can we get people like Hiro to support us". And that first step is a cohesive approach that allows proper debate. And twitter could never achieve that. But these editors and reporters from these websites still use twitter as a means to want to bully and harass people on the internet. But you're okay with all this bullying and harassment from Gawker media and it's affiliates because you're more concerned about GG than the hypocrisy of the gaming media.

[Hiro Protagonist]

Those sites have been steadily increasing their views since gamergate began.

Either gamergate is not big enough to boycott anything or exposure brought in more readers.

 

Can you provide links to this?

[kirottu]

Bruce is right about one thing, leaderless rabble accomplish nothing but chaos. Its why the Tea Party has half of congress pushing laws through for them and the Occupy movement achieved pretty much nothing in the long run. The GG website is a place where clear goals of the movement can be posted, rather than relying on random people on twitter, and with guys like TotalBiscuit on board, maybe some clear reasonable leadership can emerge.

 

Both those operate in the real world. Internet is chaos. So for internet based consumer revolt no leader is needed. 

[BruceVC]

 

Bruce is right about one thing, leaderless rabble accomplish nothing but chaos. Its why the Tea Party has half of congress pushing laws through for them and the Occupy movement achieved pretty much nothing in the long run. The GG website is a place where clear goals of the movement can be posted, rather than relying on random people on twitter, and with guys like TotalBiscuit on board, maybe some clear reasonable leadership can emerge.

 

Both those operate in the real world. Internet is chaos. So for internet based consumer revolt no leader is needed. 

 

 

If you really believe the Internet is just chaos and somehow that chaos can achieve a result then you are gong to be very, very disappointed when GG amounts to nothing

 

There are many areas on the Internet that are very organised and have real standards and rules that work. Almost every company in the world has website that is organised, you can place online orders and post real issues that get responded to by the company concerned . There are whole divisions in large  companies whose only job is to confirm the image that exists on the Internet and how the company can create more Internet visibility. The Internet has often mobilised people and effected change. But its not  done with nameless Twitter comments. You need a website and some sort of effective manageable hierarchy that represents the movement or comments in a way that is not bedlam with no accountability

 

Yes there is chaos on the Internet, this whole GG furore up to now has proven that  but that definitely doesn't mean the Internet is all chaos and therefore ineffective at causing real changes

[pmp10]

 

Those sites have been steadily increasing their views since gamergate began.

Either gamergate is not big enough to boycott anything or exposure brought in more readers.

 

Can you provide links to this?

 

Polygon.

Kotaku.

Gamasutra.

IIRC one of those sites was celebrating record views recently.

Edited October 24, 2014 by pmp10

[BruceVC]

 

No Hiro, its clear to me you don't understand the role of gaming websites and there role in this GG furore

 

There is no expectation that any gaming website has to have discussions around the good and bad around GG. Many of these website like Polygon and RPS have been the targets of the GG outrage and since these websites are independently owned I can completely understand why they chose to not support GG. But the reality is I haven't seen any links that directly say " we at RPS don't like GG"  they have just decided to not post any stories around them or encourage discussions on there forums because they feel everything has been said that needs to be said

 

That's not the same thing as me saying "GG needs a website where we can discuss all topics about the purpose of GG, the good and the bad". The onus is on GG to get a message across about what they really stand and distance themselves from the extremist element. This is not the role of websites like Gamasutra and Polygon. These websites are fine with the fact that GG doesn't like them and they are prepared to deal with the consequences

 

GG should be asking "how can we get people like BruceVC to support us". And that first step is  a cohesive approach that allows proper debate. And twitter could never have achieved that. So I really do support this new GG websites because of the positive steps that can come from it

 

Oh, I don't understand? It's clear to me Bruce, you're the one who doesn't understand. And it's clear to me you don't care about the standards of people from these gaming media sites and don't hold them accountable at all.

 

And there is no expectation to have a discussion about the standards of these gaming websites that GG has brought up? And these sites like Polygon and RPS and Gawker Media have shown that they will stop at nothing to throw insults at their audience and their sponsors. And you're all for that and don't hold them accountable. You're more interested in holding GG up to a higher standard and ignoring these gaming media sites and their hypocrisy.

 

And why shouldn't the gaming media sites want to discuss all topics about the purpose of good behaviour, honesty, integrity, the gaming industry, good and the bad? The onus is on these media sites to get a clear message across about what they really stand for and distance themselves from the extremist element. But then you say this is not the role of websites like Gamasutra and Polygon?. So you're okay with bullying and harassment from these sites? Good to see where you stand. You're all for bullies and having bullies throw insults at minorities, women, all sorts of people. And these gaming media websites are fine with the fact that they don't care about the issues GG has brought up with them throwing insults at their audience and sponsors and they are prepared to deal with the consequences? Good to see you're championing their cause for bullying and harassment.

 

These gaming websites should be asking "how can we get people like Hiro to support us". And that first step is a cohesive approach that allows proper debate. And twitter could never achieve that. But these editors and reporters from these websites still use twitter as a means to want to bully and harass people on the internet. But you're okay with all this bullying and harassment from Gawker media and it's affiliates because you're more concerned about GG than the hypocrisy of the gaming media.

 

 

You have every right to feel offended by the perception that certain gaming websites have created about the word " gamers " or how you feel they have treated the GG movement. Personally I think that your outrage is completely misplaced and unnecessary but I won't tell you how you should feel if you truly  feel aggrieved

 

But you have no right to expect certain websites to automatically support GG or even to post favourable articles about the movement if that's not what   they think

 

You can choose to boycott those websites which many of you have already done, but I  fail to see why I should expect the likes of Polygon to expose the corruption that apparently exists in it own community? Because many people like me  don't believe the gaming industry is fundamentally corrupt, yes there are issues but not to the degree some people on GG would have us believe. And there are many people who agree with me because sites like Polygon are still very much alive and kicking

 

And finally yes, these websites should try to bring people like Hiro back to them. But what more can they do? What do you really expect them to do. There was a time where websites like RPS went to great lengths to explain there view on GG and it wasn't all critical. But you can't keep repeating a certain  stance on a particular subject. Some people refuse to understand certain things and will only see the negative so irrespective of what RPS says it won't change Hiro's mind because he has convinced himself about a certain narrative around RPS

Edited October 24, 2014 by BruceVC

[Malcador]

There was a time where websites like RPS went to great lengths to explain there view on GG and it wasn't all critical.

Uh...when was this ?

[Enoch]

 

 

 

No Volo, you are still one of the few people who believes that and that type of perspective is just ignored by people who try to have this debate in a meaningful way

 

I feel that these SJW's aren't really feminists. It's just a title they've given themselves to be holier-than-thou. The situation with TFYC is proof that helping women get into the gaming industry isn't a goal of theirs. They're just a clique of hipster douches who want to be considered intellectuals, but don't want to bother learning what they're talking about. It's unfair to hold feminism in disdain based on these people. 

 

We've already seen with the Factual feminist and TFYC that these pretenders don't represent actual feminism.

 

 

I wish I could agree with your sentiment, but Hoff Sommers has been attacked for her "antifeminit viewpoints" by those claiming to be "real feminists" (the one's I'd liken to the group Volo is talking about) for way longer than GG has been around.

 

There has been a fair amount of long-term cultural conservatives getting very excited about this whole thing because they see it as an opportunity to bash feminists and get people who aren't all 60+ white dudes to listen. 

[Hiro Protagonist]

Polygon.

Kotaku.

Gamasutra.

IIRC one of those sites was celebrating record views recently.

 

Need to check your own link. Looks like Gamasutra has dropped, not increased.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist

[Keyrock]

 

 

Those sites have been steadily increasing their views since gamergate began.

Either gamergate is not big enough to boycott anything or exposure brought in more readers.

 

Can you provide links to this?

 

Polygon.

Kotaku.

Gamasutra.

IIRC one of those sites was celebrating record views recently.

 

Sure, because of the hoopla surrounding GamerGate and the smear pieces they've posted, they are drawing in people from the mainstream, from the non-hardcore gamer, or even non-gamer pool (note: I'm using the term "gamer" to mean anyone who plays games on at least a semi-regular basis, because that's the dictionary definition, I'm not using it to just mean horrible, toxic, misogynist, cisgendered neckbeards), hence the temporary boost in page views.  The operative word here is "temporary".  The mainstream non-gamer crowd doesn't regularly visit video game sites, they may do so occasionally at best, under normal circumstances.  They're visiting game sites now because of the media ****storm, but that will eventually pass, whether those sites continue to post smear pieces or not.  A new flavor of the month will inevitably come along (it always does) and those people will move on to that new trendy scandal.  So, where do video game sites get their regular viewership, the people that visit those sites on a daily basis providing steady traffic?  Why, that happens to be the exact group of people those sites attacked and alienated.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Keyrock

[Hiro Protagonist]

You have every right to feel offended by the perception that certain gaming websites have created about the word " gamers " or how you feel they have treated the GG movement. Personally I think that your outrage is completely misplaced and unnecessary but I won't tell you how you should feel if you truly  feel aggrieved

 

But you have no right to expect certain websites to automatically support GG or even to post favourable articles about the movement if that's not what   they think

 

You can choose to boycott those websites which many of you have already done, but I  fail to see why I should expect the likes of Polygon to expose the corruption that apparently exists in it own community? Because many people like me  don't believe the gaming industry is fundamentally corrupt, yes there are issues but not to the degree some people on GG would have us believe. And there are many people who agree with me because sites like Polygon are still very much alive and kicking

 

And finally yes, these websites should try to bring people like Hiro back to them. But what more can they do? What do you really expect them to do. There was a time where websites like RPS went to great lengths to explain there view on GG and it wasn't all critical. But you can't keep repeating a certain  stance on a particular subject. Some people refuse to understand certain things and will only see the negative so irrespective of what RPS says it won't change Hiro's mind because he has convinced himself about a certain narrative around RPS

 

 

Why would I be offended? I'm quite bemused by it all. And how do you know how I feel? And you think I'm outraged? LOL. Nice misconception and strawmen you've built there Bruce.

 

And I never once said I expect certain websites to support GG. I have said certain websites like Polygon should have honesty, integrity, to be held up to a certain standard, not to bully or harass their audience and throw insults at their sponsors. But you're okay with them doing this. I find it quite odd that you don't expect the gaming media to be honest and have integrity.

 

And you don't expect Polygon or any other gaming media site to get rid of corruption? LOL. This coming from a so called Social Justice Warrior. Okay, so you're okay with organisations doing as they please. Throwing insults at their audience and their sponsors. And you agree with sites like Polygon. Check.

 

And what do I expect them to do? I keep repeating myself with them being honest and having integrity, something you're unable to grasp. And when did sites like RPS and others went to great lengths to explain GG and it wasn't all critical? And yes Bruce, you can't keep repeating a certain stance on a particular subject. You've been proven wrong on many times on these forums. I know you can do it. I know you can admit that the gaming media should have integrity and should stamp out corruption. Some people like yourself refuse to understand certain things and will only see the negative so irrespective of what GG says it won't change Bruce's mind because he has convinced himself about a certain narrative around GG.

[kirottu]

If you really believe the Internet is just chaos and somehow that chaos can achieve a result then you are gong to be very, very disappointed when GG amounts to nothing.

If GamerGate would end tomorrow I would still be glad to be part of it. We funded women's gaming charity and made The Escapist change it's ethics guidelines.

 

There are many areas on the Internet that are very organised and have real standards and rules that work. Almost every company in the world has website that is organised, you can place online orders and post real issues that get responded to by the company concerned . There are whole divisions in large  companies whose only job is to confirm the image that exists on the Internet and how the company can create more Internet visibility.

This has nothing to do with anything. I don't think you understand what chaos means.

 

The Internet has often mobilised people and effected change. But its not  done with nameless Twitter comments. You need a website and some sort of effective manageable hierarchy that represents the movement or comments in a way that is not bedlam with no accountability.

Individual accountability exists and that's the only thing we need. People are responsible of their own actions. Shocking, I know.

 

Yes there is chaos on the Internet, this whole GG furore up to now has proven that  but that definitely doesn't mean the Internet is all chaos and therefore ineffective at causing real changes

Now I'm sure you don't understand what chaos means. Chaos is ever changing that is what makes it chaotic. Chaos is change.

 

In internet there is no need for hierarchy of order. Everyone has a voice and everyone is equal. Internet is chaos.

Edited October 24, 2014 by kirottu

[BruceVC]

 

Polygon.

Kotaku.

Gamasutra.

IIRC one of those sites was celebrating record views recently.

 

Need to check your own link. Looks like Gamasutra has dropped, not increased.

 

 

And the other two, how are they doing?

[pmp10]

 

Polygon.

Kotaku.

Gamasutra.

IIRC one of those sites was celebrating record views recently.

 

Need to check your own link. Looks like Gamasutra has dropped, not increased.

 

On monthly scale it has but it's only back to the level of one year ago.

[TrashMan]

I support GG because I can call out righteous SJW's and "feminists" (real feminists are equalists .. these aggressive, militant feminist rub me the wrong way) on their BS.

And also because I value journalistic integrity

And because I root for the underdog

And because I despise injustice and gamers getting bashed and demonized riles me up.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

Bruce is right about one thing, leaderless rabble accomplish nothing but chaos. Its why the Tea Party has half of congress pushing laws through for them and the Occupy movement achieved pretty much nothing in the long run. The GG website is a place where clear goals of the movement can be posted, rather than relying on random people on twitter, and with guys like TotalBiscuit on board, maybe some clear reasonable leadership can emerge.

Both those operate in the real world. Internet is chaos. So for internet based consumer revolt no leader is needed.

But The Leader of Gamergate has spoken!

 

Edited October 24, 2014 by KaineParker

[Meshugger]

Swedish media thinks Gamergate have the same foundations as Breivik and will cause mass rape and massacres:

 

http://www.svd.se/kultur/tid-for-sjalvrannsakan-i-spelindustrin_4024931.svd

[Hiro Protagonist]

And the other two, how are they doing?

 

So you admit Gamasutra's views have gone down?

[Hiro Protagonist]

On monthly scale it has but it's only back to the level of one year ago.

 

Your claim was: 'Those sites have been steadily increasing their views since gamergate began."

 

How long has GG been going? About a month? Gamasutra has gone down.