Drama in indy gaming and games journalism

[Blarghagh]

I find the only consistent message #GamerGate sends to actual trolls is "hey look, your trolling works, it pisses people off and stops the people you want to bother from doing their job, GO KEEP DOING IT!"

[Longknife]

I find the only consistent message #GamerGate sends to actual trolls is "hey look, your trolling works, it pisses people off and stops the people you want to bother from doing their job, GO KEEP DOING IT!"

 

How is this GamerGate's work?

 

Ultimately if you take the bait from a troll, do not be surprised when it keeps happening. TotalBiscuit did a great little speech about how if they truly want the death threats to stop, they should STOP ****ING ANNOUNCING THEM ON TWITTER TO STRANGERS ON THE INTERNET WHO CAN'T DO **** ALL TO HELP YOU. All that does is feed and acknowledge the troll, alerting them that it worked, and encourages copycat crimes. Yet they do it, and we all know damned well why. Because deep down they enjoy this coverage and they enjoy this shield of being able to say "look see! It's sexism!"

[Enoch]

Alright, why don't I recount how things have gone and ya'll tell me where I'm wrong.

 

1)  Before any of this really started, there was an established record of a disturbing amount of hateful misogynist reactions to criticisms of vidyagames that happen to either come from a woman or point out sexist themes in popular games.  Much more than one would expect just from background "trolls gonna troll" noise.  (I.e., much moreso than in other mediums like TV or film.)

 

2)  There is also an established record of major games media outlets being influenced by the games publishers, who provide access, ad revenue, swag, etc., and expect positive content in return.  This is so well known that hardly anybody expects anything other than raves from major media.

 

3)  Folks like Quinn, Wu, Leigh Alexander, and others indubitably experienced #1 first-hand on several occassions.

 

4)  When the whole Quinn-Grayson thing broke, it brought another round of hateful anonymous abuse directed at Quinn.

 

5)  Some like-minded folks in games media decide that they have an opportunity to maybe do something about this, and simultaneously publish columns opining that vidyagames' predominantly juvenile treatment of gender issues just might has something to do with there being such an issue with "angry sexist jerk" responses from the community, and that it might be better if games makers were a bit less eager to cater to this particular audience.

 

6)  Lots of people who self-identify as gamers get very mad about this.  People don't like being talked down to, especially when it feels like the authors are regarding them all as examples of the worst "unloveable loser" vidyagamer stereotype.  Plus, lots of people like their games the way they are, don't care to see them changed.  The controversy about Sarkeesian's video series gets rolled into this, as do long-standing grievances that gamers have with games media (such as #2), and the general fears some have about "PC censorship." 

 

7)  Angry people on both sides say/do some hateful things, particularly on Twitter, where the "gamergate" label emerges.

 

8)  Certain fora where gamergate discussions are going on note that there is still a fair amount of angry violent misogyny in these conversations, decide they don't want to be associated with that, and kick them out.  Non-games media covering the above focus primarily on the angry sexism and death threats.  This reinforces the feeling in some supporters that they are being censored and persecuted.

 

 

What am I missing? 

Edited October 16, 2014 by Enoch

[Blarghagh]

 

I find the only consistent message #GamerGate sends to actual trolls is "hey look, your trolling works, it pisses people off and stops the people you want to bother from doing their job, GO KEEP DOING IT!"

How is this GamerGate's work?

 

Ultimately if you take the bait from a troll, do not be surprised when it keeps happening. TotalBiscuit did a great little speech about how if they truly want the death threats to stop, they should STOP ****ING ANNOUNCING THEM ON TWITTER TO STRANGERS ON THE INTERNET WHO CAN'T DO **** ALL TO HELP YOU. All that does is feed and acknowledge the troll, alerting them that it worked, and encourages copycat crimes. Yet they do it, and we all know damned well why. Because deep down they enjoy this coverage and they enjoy this shield of being able to say "look see! It's sexism!"

 

 

I meant the situation, not the movement. You made the same point I was trying to make but in more detail. The reason people keep threatening Anita is because it's an easy way for trolls to get the attention they want because she consistently reacts exactly the way they want her to.

[Malcador]

I find the only consistent message #GamerGate sends to actual trolls is "hey look, your trolling works, it pisses people off and stops the people you want to bother from doing their job, GO KEEP DOING IT!"

Good message then, at least for my purposes. Though not sure what else is that viable, telling them stop is about as useful as creating a hashtag to do it.

 

If only the, ahem, victims of this stuff would not react so well to it. Well then again, Quinn is making more money and Wu is now somewhat known

Edited October 16, 2014 by Malcador

[Blarghagh]

I can say with absolute certainty that if not for this harassment, I would not know who any of them are.

[Malcador]

Soon they will be the most important figures in gaming, no doubt.

[Fighter]

I'm not going to point a finger at anyone specific because you can't know. But I have no doubt at least some out there do not feel threatened at all and are milking this for their own benefit. It is obviously too effective to not be exploited by someone in this way.

[Meshugger]

What am I missing? 

 

Again, 92 seconds of you time.

 

[Nonek]

Alright, why don't I recount how things have gone and ya'll tell me where I'm wrong.

 

1)  Before any of this really started, there was an established record of a disturbing amount of hateful misogynist reactions to criticisms of vidyagames that happen to either come from a woman or point out sexist themes in popular games.  Much more than one would expect just from background "trolls gonna troll" noise.  (I.e., much moreso than in other mediums like TV or film.)

 

2)  There is also an established record of major games media outlets being influenced by the games publishers, who provide access, ad revenue, swag, etc., and expect positive content in return.  This is so well known that hardly anybody expects anything other than raves from major media.

 

3)  Folks like Quinn, Wu, Leigh Alexander, and others indubitably experienced #1 first-hand on several occassions.

 

4)  When the whole Quinn-Grayson thing broke, it brought another round of hateful anonymous abuse directed at Quinn.

 

5)  Some like-minded folks in games media decide that they have an opportunity to maybe do something about this, and simultaneously publish columns opining that vidyagames' predominantly juvenile treatment of gender issues just might has something to do with there being such an issue with "angry sexist jerk" responses from the community, and that it might be better if games makers were a bit less eager to cater to this particular audience.

 

6)  Lots of people who self-identify as gamers get very mad about this.  People don't like being talked down to, especially when it feels like the authors are regarding them all as examples of the worst "unloveable loser" vidyagamer stereotype.  Plus, lots of people like their games the way they are, don't care to see them changed.  The controversy about Sarkeesian's video series gets rolled into this, as do long-standing grievances that gamers have with games media (such as #2), and the general fears some have about "PC censorship." 

 

7)  Angry people on both sides say/do some hateful things, particularly on Twitter, where the "gamergate" label emerges.

 

8 ) Certain fora where gamergate discussions are going on note that there is still a fair amount of angry violent misogyny in these conversations, decide they don't want to be associated with that, and kick them out.  Non-games media covering the above focus primarily on the angry sexism and death threats.  This reinforces the feeling in some supporters that they are being censored and persecuted.

 

 

What am I missing? 

 

1) I'm fairly sure that the amount of hateful misogynist reactions to criticism was consistent with every other topic on the internet, and there was a lot of automatically dismissed good factual criticism of the criticism.

 

2) Yes the game industry and media have been in bed for far too long, and people have been complaining about it consistently.

 

3) I'm not sure anybody knew Quinn or Wu before they became professional victims. Leigh Alexander gave as much as she recieved, and more importantly from a position of power where her voice can be heard far more loudly.

 

4) When Ms Quinn's multiple adulteries were revealed it brought far more ridicule and rightful outrage over Mr Grayson's unethical behaviour.

 

5) The SJF's launched a mass crusade against all gamers, denouncing them all as dead, whatever their race, sex, creed even if they had never been anywhere near Twitter or Facebook.

 

6) Somewhat annoyed many innocent recreational gamers, who were then furthermore declared to be subhuman and worse than ISIS. Tired of being preached at by a corrupt and unfit for purpose (see point 2) medium, gamers grew somewhat irritated. Started fighting back and asking for any threats and harassment from their side to stop as it did more harm than good. Naturally balked at the SJF's idea of good, ethical games which are non interactive picture books, interspersed with clumsy moralising that any preacher would ridicule as blatant and of poor quality.

 

7) Gamergate arises from Mr Baldwin having a laugh at SJF's, the stupid threaten and harass, the inquisitive investigate those whom attacked them and the fascists start using their connections to doxx, censor free speech, get innocent people fired from their jobs and continue to portray all gamers as subhuman misogynists, racists, etcetera from their positions of power as published mouthpieces.

 

8 ) 4chan caves in to the fascists need for censorship, even though the majority of the content there was not abusive, threatening or harassing.

 

My perspective, hope this helps.

 

Edit: Ugh a smiley, I deeply apologise for this condescending and horrible emote, edited out immediately.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Nonek

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

As an aside, could something be done about automatic use if smileys?

 

I find it a bit jarrring that Enoch or Nonek's eight line is puncutuated by .

[Longknife]

I for one am ****ing sick of beating the dead horse that is "do you guys acknowledge that sexism, harassment and threats are wrong?"

****ing convenient we discuss that to oblivion and never quite move onto the bits about journalistic integrity.

[Nonek]

When you've only got one defense...

[BladeO]

****ing convenient we discuss that to oblivion and never quite move onto the bits about journalistic integrity.

Gaming journalists don't know what that is. That's an established fact. You might remember a few years back a little twitter argument between Erik Kain and Jim Sterling (and some other guy idk who) and Jim Sterling basically admitted that they have to give good reviews to popular titles for fear of ads being pulled and the fanboys getting buttmad. I heard a review of one popular game started with the reviewer bragging about the hotel room the publisher gave him in which to play the game. Like, wtf, at least they should learn to shut their traps about it.

[BruceVC]

I for one am ****ing sick of beating the dead horse that is "do you guys acknowledge that sexism, harassment and threats are wrong?"

 

****ing convenient we discuss that to oblivion and never quite move onto the bits about journalistic integrity.

 

 

When you've only got one defense...

 

You sick and tired yet the sexism, harassment and threats continue from certain people

 

So we have to continue to point out this unacceptable social behaviour

[Shallow]

 

 I heard a review of one popular game started with the reviewer bragging about the hotel room the publisher gave him in which to play the game. Like, wtf, at least they should learn to shut their traps about it.

What? Isn't stating when the publisher has bribed the author one of the things we want?

[Longknife]

 

I for one am ****ing sick of beating the dead horse that is "do you guys acknowledge that sexism, harassment and threats are wrong?"

 

****ing convenient we discuss that to oblivion and never quite move onto the bits about journalistic integrity.

 

 

When you've only got one defense...

 

You sick and tired yet the sexism, harassment and threats continue from certain people

 

So we have to continue to point out this unacceptable social behaviour

 

 

 

Do we? Why?

 

There's only so many times you can say "hey murder is bad" or "hey name calling is bad" before the entire discussion is redundant and unproductive. It's common knowledge those things are bad and that there is not a SINGLE prevelant person within either side that condones such things. Yet here we are discussing it to death as if the issue were as complex and controversial as a discussion about religious freedom vs. a religion with oppressive views.

 

 

There's no reason to continue denouncing every random troll that threatens Anita for ****s and giggles. Especially when she keeps feeding them the equivalent of a Christmas Turkey dinner.

[BladeO]

What? Isn't stating when the publisher has bribed the author one of the things we want?

I interpret it as an outright "yeah we take bribes do something about it" and it irritates me. It's an obvious sign of disrespect. And they're right, we can't do **** about it because for every one of us who is onto these people, there are ten others who don't care, are gullible enough to still pay attention to their "opinions", or actually aspire to be them.

[Shallow]

 

You sick and tired yet the sexism, harassment and threats continue from certain people

 

So we have to continue to point out this unacceptable social behaviour

 

Again, when we can do absolutely nothing to stop it, what the heck do you suggest we do about it? All suggestions that have been suggested that I've heard of are that we shut up and wait forever, or go with an official censored site which has about as many problems as the shut up and wait forever idea. It's not like someones gonna say "Oh look, Bruce is mad at me, I better stop telling women to get back to the kitchen, harassing people, or sending deaththreats.", if there is an issue that can't be tackled in any way, even if the issue is more severe than the issues you could easily deal with, the only sensible thing to do is ignore the big issue and focus on the things you can fix, all the smaller issues add up, and by the time you could've fixed the big issue without creating bigger issues (that time being in eternity, seeing as there is no solution here that isn't worse than the status quo), all the fixable things you've dealt with will leave the world a far better place than if you'd somehow been able to perfectly fix that big issue with no side effects.

 

So, give us one way to deal with harassment (that isn't heavily flawed) if you want us to deal with it and believe it can be dealt with, otherwise move on to things we can deal with, and I'm not saying game journalism is near the top priority of things wrong with the world that could easily be heavily improved, but the whole waiting forever thing is just ridiculous.

[BruceVC]

 

 

You sick and tired yet the sexism, harassment and threats continue from certain people

 

So we have to continue to point out this unacceptable social behaviour

 

Again, when we can do absolutely nothing to stop it, what the heck do you suggest we do about it? All suggestions that have been suggested that I've heard of are that we shut up and wait forever, or go with an official censored site which has about as many problems as the shut up and wait forever idea. It's not like someones gonna say "Oh look, Bruce is mad at me, I better stop telling women to get back to the kitchen, harassing people, or sending deaththreats.", if there is an issue that can't be tackled in any way, even if the issue is more severe than the issues you could easily deal with, the only sensible thing to do is ignore the big issue and focus on the things you can fix, all the smaller issues add up, and by the time you could've fixed the big issue without creating bigger issues (that time being in eternity, seeing as there is no solution here that isn't worse than the status quo), all the fixable things you've dealt with will leave the world a far better place than if you'd somehow been able to perfectly fix that big issue with no side effects.

 

So, give us one way to deal with harassment (that isn't heavily flawed) if you want us to deal with it and believe it can be dealt with, otherwise move on to things we can deal with, and I'm not saying game journalism is near the top priority of things wrong with the world that could easily be heavily improved, but the whole waiting forever thing is just ridiculous.

 

 

I suppose we just have different things that we think are  important, firstly I don't consider  gaming journalists real journalists compared to people who say work for CNN. So to  expect them to reform and to be bound by the same standards as normal journalists is just a waste of time IMO. Secondly I don't think there is a conspiracy amongst gaming journalists to undermine and attack white, male gamers.

 

But back to the abuse and harassment  question, you must always condemn it when people are involved in it and then distance yourself from any website or group that is fine with it. You can also make posts and discussions around why you don't think its acceptable. I know this probably doesn't sound very exciting but its the Internet so I'm not sure what else you can really do?

[Gorgon]

I'm not responsible for trolls who happen to share my opinion on certain matters. It's a bit like people who demand that every muslim should stand up and declare his opposition to Al qaeda and ISIS. Because after all, he's one of those people.

[Nonek]

 

I for one am ****ing sick of beating the dead horse that is "do you guys acknowledge that sexism, harassment and threats are wrong?"

 

****ing convenient we discuss that to oblivion and never quite move onto the bits about journalistic integrity.

 

 

When you've only got one defense...

 

You sick and tired yet the sexism, harassment and threats continue from certain people

 

So we have to continue to point out this unacceptable social behaviour

 

 

And the SJF's continue to indulge in it while pointing it out, and doing far worse than making alleged threats.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I'm not responsible for trolls who happen to share my opinion on certain matters. It's a bit like people who demand that every muslim should stand up and declare his opposition to Al qaeda and ISIS. Because after all, he's one of those people.

Exactly.

 

We should hold the individuals accountable and leave it at that.

[pseudonymous]

So someone trolled the USU? Looks like the trolls know how to stop Anita Sarkeesian doing any more speeches. The trolls just send anonymous death threats to any place where there's a public speaking event she'll attend.

 

She canceled her talk because of Utah's CCW law.  There was NEVER a credible threat according to law enforcement, but you wouldn't know that from reading the NY Times.

[pseudonymous]

 

What am I missing? 

 

Brianna Wu harassing a fruit importer.