Graze gotta go, no?

[Matt516]

So your specific vision of what makes a worthy IE game successor is what defines "real" fandom? I'm just trying to clarify if that's actually what you're saying, because that's what it sounds like.

 

What if I say you're not a real fan for being ok with limited resting and per encounter abilities? Would that mean neither of us is a real fan? Or would it mean that accusing people of not being "real fans" of the IE games because they disagree with you is just a stupid thing to do?

Edited September 28, 2014 by Matt516

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

So your specific vision of what makes a worthy IE game successor is what defines "real" fandom? I'm just trying to clarify if that's actually what you're saying, because that's what it sounds like.

You're not a true fan if you don't like stuff I like.

 

Looks like promancers were only the tip of the iceberg.

[archangel979]

So your specific vision of what makes a worthy IE game successor is what defines "real" fandom? I'm just trying to clarify if that's actually what you're saying, because that's what it sounds like.

 

What if I say you're not a real fan for being ok with limited resting and per encounter abilities? Would that mean neither of us is a real fan? Or would it mean that accusing people of not being "real fans" of the IE games because they disagree with you is just a stupid thing to do?

Real fans are those that loved the full package of IE games.

 

But you are focusing on less important stuff. I gave my list of bad changes compared to IE games, focus on those.

[Matt516]

Missing the point. To some people, unlimited resting and per day abilities could be really important. What I'm trying to get across is that you're not the arbiter of what is or isn't "essential" to the IE game experience. I'm not saying you can't believe that the game shouldn't have grazes - just that attacking people who like that system as "not real fans" is ludicrous.

[Sensuki]

Due to the recent Attribute system changes, you now get absolutely fark all Accuracy from Dexterity, therefore you are going to see A LOT MORE grazes in this build.

 

The new system probably isn't right yet.

[lychee26]

That just means they are not real fans. Just as I am not a real football fan because I only watch it on TV while others go to stadiums or go abroad to follow the teams.

I want PoE to be the whole package. DA:O was not and that is why it was worse. PoE does not need to be D&D, but it needs to feel similar to playing IE games. Changing mechanics left and right does not help that. Spellcasting has already been dumbed down, grazes are bad, health system sucks, Might is magical damage as well as physical, stats have way too weak affect on game mechanics, only a few skills that you cannot use outside of scripted sequences, super high damage and life values as a result of DT system and so on.. all of that that is worse. EDIT: I forgot, Bag of Holding(limitless stash) from the start of the game, maps too small, they even removed the amulet slot LOL... there are other things like enemies moving way too fast but I expect this to be fixed.

I only like limited resting and encounter abilities that let caster do more during combat without worrying about wasting spells.

 

 

The thing is is that PoE does feel similar to IE games. Obviously not the same, but you can't say that it isn't obviously inspired by it in many ways. Assuming you only just found out about it today, knowing nothing about it previously, what is the first game that would pop into your head after playing it.

 

I do have to agree with some of your points though. I don't like Might being both magical and physical - 'cos it makes me never want to play a wizard as a physically strong wizard is just something that I never want to play. I also don't quite understand why we can't wear a cloak and wear an amulet at the same time. Some of the other aspects, such as the high damage and life are just things you have to accept as part of this game - a part that differs from the IE games (in a somewhat good way for me as starting out with 4 health was never attractive to me - not that I really minded it, but I won't miss it, just like I won't exactly welcome having 100s of health at level 5, but I don't mind).

 

And about the maps - I think that is mainly a budget and time thing. Considering the small budget and the goals of the game I think the trade-off was either fewer larger areas, or a greater amount of smaller areas. Though I do wish that all the areas were of the same quality (that lion area west of town really doesn't stand up as well).

 

Oh and about grazes, just think of them as having bad rolls of 1 or something. They do need to happen less often though.

Edited September 28, 2014 by lychee26

[Matt516]

Due to the recent Attribute system changes, you now get absolutely fark all Accuracy from Dexterity, therefore you are going to see A LOT MORE grazes in this build.

 

The new system probably isn't right yet.

 

Can you elaborate? I'm not really sure what you're saying here...

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Can you elaborate? I'm not really sure what you're saying here...

 

I'd like to know as well. I'm seeing more hits than grazes in the latest update.

[Sensuki]

Base Accuracy with acc bonus from Per inclusive is 10 less than it used to be at the same score in Dex from v278.

 

Base Deflection is the same at 10 Int.

 

The total amount per point that you get from attributes probably needs to be raised a bit.

[GreyFox]

I like the graze mechanic, it makes sense in that it provides a middle ground between a full hit and a miss.

It also allows for finer adjustments to your deflection/defence, it allows finer shifts in defence to have a noticeable effect the whole -50% damage or -50% duration is reasonable.

 

 

Damage range for weapons takes care of lower, middle, and high grounds on what constitutes a hit. 

With grazes there is no reason for weapons to have a damage range. If they keep this system then they should just do static weapon damage and it would probably make balancing weapons easier anyway. 12 damage longsword would do 6 on a graze....easy to deal with. Now if only might didn't give a % increase in damage we could get rid of those silly decimals....0.2 damage....really? 

 

Personally I'd rather have no grazes with weapon ranges and I certainly would rather miss or do 0 damage than 0.2.

[Matt516]

Base Accuracy with acc bonus from Per inclusive is 10 less than it used to be at the same score in Dex from v278.

 

Base Deflection is the same at 10 Int.

 

The total amount per point that you get from attributes probably needs to be raised a bit.

 

Wait, so... the base Accuracy is the same, but now you can only go to +10 (at 20) from that instead of +20 (at 20). That's what you're saying?

 

Yeah, that needs to be fixed. Either all base Accuracies need to go up by 10 (would have the same mathematical balance as before, my preferred solution for now) or the bonus per point needs to go up (could also work, but would require some serious rebalancing).

[aeonsim]

 

 

I really don't understand why some people on these forums backed PoE. It seems they barely liked IE games. Is it because of loving later Obsidian games?

Anyways there are too many of you here and you are too loud and it will kill this game for the real fans of the IE games. More time I spend here it makes me more and more worried for the final product.

I been wating too long for the next BG quality game and it seem I might be getting next DA:O instead.

I'm sorry, but no. NO. Just because someone doesn't like the exact same things about the IE games as you do or is interested in seeing a few new things tried does not make them not a "real fan" of the IE games. There are people in the world who love those games in a slightly different (or even *gasp* very different!) way than you do. Recognize that.

 

That just means they are not real fans. Just as I am not a real football fan because I only watch it on TV while others go to stadiums or go abroad to follow the teams.

I want PoE to be the whole package. DA:O was not and that is why it was worse. PoE does not need to be D&D, but it needs to feel similar to playing IE games. Changing mechanics left and right does not help that. Spellcasting has already been dumbed down, grazes are bad, health system sucks, Might is magical damage as well as physical, stats have way too weak affect on game mechanics, only a few skills that you cannot use outside of scripted sequences, super high damage and life values as a result of DT system and so on.. all of that that is worse. EDIT: I forgot, Bag of Holding(limitless stash) from the start of the game, maps too small, they even removed the amulet slot LOL... there are other things like enemies moving way too fast but I expect this to be fixed.

I only like limited resting and encounter abilities that let caster do more during combat without worrying about wasting spells.

 

 

Nope, I'm happy to say you are not the centre of the Universe or BG fandom and that there are plenty of people here who enjoyed the game as much or more than you do. Who have totally different views of what was good about the game and how something like PoE should be. Having only played BG through ~3x and BG2 ~6x I may not be a hard core fan , but a fan I am and a lot of the changes I'm seeing in PoE look to be improvements or equally valid choices.

[aeonsim]

 

Base Accuracy with acc bonus from Per inclusive is 10 less than it used to be at the same score in Dex from v278.

 

Base Deflection is the same at 10 Int.

 

The total amount per point that you get from attributes probably needs to be raised a bit.

 

Wait, so... the base Accuracy is the same, but now you can only go to +10 (at 20) from that instead of +20 (at 20). That's what you're saying?

 

Yeah, that needs to be fixed. Either all base Accuracies need to go up by 10 (would have the same mathematical balance as before, my preferred solution for now) or the bonus per point needs to go up (could also work, but would require some serious rebalancing).

 

 

Yeah that sounds like a bug and that they forgot to adjust things back up when they changed the attributes around.

[ambrusynev]

I also like the inclusion of graze in the game. I have always hated in IE games that my characters who know how to wield a weapon properly missed hitting them so often. I find it more realistic to see that they usually cause a small amount of damage to opponents instead.

[archangel979]

 

 

 

 

I really don't understand why some people on these forums backed PoE. It seems they barely liked IE games. Is it because of loving later Obsidian games?

Anyways there are too many of you here and you are too loud and it will kill this game for the real fans of the IE games. More time I spend here it makes me more and more worried for the final product.

I been wating too long for the next BG quality game and it seem I might be getting next DA:O instead.

I'm sorry, but no. NO. Just because someone doesn't like the exact same things about the IE games as you do or is interested in seeing a few new things tried does not make them not a "real fan" of the IE games. There are people in the world who love those games in a slightly different (or even *gasp* very different!) way than you do. Recognize that.

That just means they are not real fans. Just as I am not a real football fan because I only watch it on TV while others go to stadiums or go abroad to follow the teams.

I want PoE to be the whole package. DA:O was not and that is why it was worse. PoE does not need to be D&D, but it needs to feel similar to playing IE games. Changing mechanics left and right does not help that. Spellcasting has already been dumbed down, grazes are bad, health system sucks, Might is magical damage as well as physical, stats have way too weak affect on game mechanics, only a few skills that you cannot use outside of scripted sequences, super high damage and life values as a result of DT system and so on.. all of that that is worse. EDIT: I forgot, Bag of Holding(limitless stash) from the start of the game, maps too small, they even removed the amulet slot LOL... there are other things like enemies moving way too fast but I expect this to be fixed.

I only like limited resting and encounter abilities that let caster do more during combat without worrying about wasting spells.

Nope, I'm happy to say you are not the centre of the Universe or BG fandom and that there are plenty of people here who enjoyed the game as much or more than you do. Who have totally different views of what was good about the game and how something like PoE should be. Having only played BG through ~3x and BG2 ~6x I may not be a hard core fan , but a fan I am and a lot of the changes I'm seeing in PoE look to be improvements or equally valid choices.

well I played way more than that. Just BgEe I played 3x, I don't even remember the number of times I played Bg1. Same for other IE games. PST is only one I finished only once but I did start it a few more times and got to different parts.

 

And to me if PoE stays as it is, it will be an inferior product. I cannot even judge if it will be better than DAO until I play release version, I hope they are at least capable of that.

Edited September 28, 2014 by archangel979

[GreyFox]

I also like the inclusion of graze in the game. I have always hated in IE games that my characters who know how to wield a weapon properly missed hitting them so often. I find it more realistic to see that they usually cause a small amount of damage to opponents instead.

 

Funny they only train to hit? If we are going with "realistic" then misses are much more frequent as living beings usually have great sense of self preservation and they train to NOT GET HIT as well....

 

Shields/Armor also are not designed to reduce incoming damage...you know that right...? 

 

Hey King Henry how you doing man? I got this new state of the art shield that now reduces damage to your troops by half instead of 75%!!!

[Jon of the Wired]

Back on topic, I like grazes. I don't mind some randomness to combat, but if I lose a battle I don't want to be able to reload, employ the exact same tactics, and win just because the RNG was nicer to me this time. I prefer combat to require skill rather than luck, and less variance in the damage helps with that.

[archangel979]

Grazes destroy an archetype of low health but hard to hit character, especially if secondary effects are also transmited through them.

 

As for spells and Grazes, I don't like normal attacks and spells sharing same mechanics. IE games spells where there were 10 different mechanics for them were more interesting.

And people reporting lack of utility spells... I don't even..

Edited September 28, 2014 by archangel979

[ambrusynev]

 

I also like the inclusion of graze in the game. I have always hated in IE games that my characters who know how to wield a weapon properly missed hitting them so often. I find it more realistic to see that they usually cause a small amount of damage to opponents instead.

 

Funny they only train to hit? If we are going with "realistic" then misses are much more frequent as living beings usually have great sense of self preservation and they train to NOT GET HIT as well....

 

Shields/Armor also are not designed to reduce incoming damage...you know that right...? 

 

Hey King Henry how you doing man? I got this new state of the art shield that now reduces damage to your troops by half instead of 75%!!!

 

That's right you've won a fair point with that argument. In my mind I imagine grazes as minor sources of pain or exhaustion which may hurt you characters in the long run like blocking attack after attack with your shield and as a result you'll get more tired which may have an influence on the outcome of the fight.  So losing a few endurace points for such events seems reasonable for me.

[Quetzalcoatl]

 

I also like the inclusion of graze in the game. I have always hated in IE games that my characters who know how to wield a weapon properly missed hitting them so often. I find it more realistic to see that they usually cause a small amount of damage to opponents instead.

 

Funny they only train to hit? If we are going with "realistic" then misses are much more frequent as living beings usually have great sense of self preservation and they train to NOT GET HIT as well....

 

Shields/Armor also are not designed to reduce incoming damage...you know that right...? 

 

Hey King Henry how you doing man? I got this new state of the art shield that now reduces damage to your troops by half instead of 75%!!!

 

I sincerely hope you don't think the frequent missing in the IE games was a realistic simulation of how a close quarters fight would play out, especially since there was always a chance to miss even stationary/paralyzed/stunned creatures or creatures with terrible AC. The graze system is a much more realistic simulation of actual combat. Though it's a moot point since the goal should be fun, not simulation.

Edited September 28, 2014 by Quetzalcoatl

[redneckdevil]

I like them. It can speed up combat on both sides.

[Matt516]

Back on topic, I like grazes. I don't mind some randomness to combat, but if I lose a battle I don't want to be able to reload, employ the exact same tactics, and win just because the RNG was nicer to me this time. I prefer combat to require skill rather than luck, and less variance in the damage helps with that.

That's my main beef with it. The fact that I can employ the exact same tactics and have a wildly different result was always a bit annoying, and I'm glad to see it go. Not that there's a problem with RNG in combat, far from it - but it was badly balanced in 2e rules.

[Sensuki]

I rarely had to reload because of bad rolls. I only did it for real cheesy stuff like stealing Drizzt's Frostbrand Scimitar.

[archangel979]

 

Back on topic, I like grazes. I don't mind some randomness to combat, but if I lose a battle I don't want to be able to reload, employ the exact same tactics, and win just because the RNG was nicer to me this time. I prefer combat to require skill rather than luck, and less variance in the damage helps with that.

That's my main beef with it. The fact that I can employ the exact same tactics and have a wildly different result was always a bit annoying, and I'm glad to see it go. Not that there's a problem with RNG in combat, far from it - but it was badly balanced in 2e rules.

 

And this is just what I am talking about. You are proposing changes to PoE while not liking basic stuff of IE games (and D&D), randomness.

I don't know if you played WL2, but lots of randomness is what makes that game good. It also made Xcom the hit it was (and old Xcom is still one of the best games I know because of randomness).

[Fiebras]

Watching the screen for 30 seconds as 6 people completely fail to hit a near-dead guy in heavy armor gets pretty boring. The missing sounds amplify the effect.

 

Then the guy in heavy armor gibs one of your guys and JUST THEN someone manages to land the killing blow.

 

Dont get me started on mages.