Drama in indy gaming and games journalism

[Fighter]

Yyyeah, that's not how human beings operate, really, and expecting the other side to consist literally of saints who are perfectly willing to make concessions to the other side they not only find deplorable, but that has also presented itself to be unwilling to make the same concessions is unrealistic.

 

Of course, if your goal is to hold your opponents to an unrealistic standard and decry them morally bankrupt when they don't hold up to that standard, it's a completely reasonable expectation.

 

I don't see this unrealistic standard at all. From GG side people HAVE spoken against harassment, but we are talking basically about unfiltered internet here. Boogie mentioned above even stopped using the hashtag over it (still got doxxed for his efforts).

 

The other side is basically a small clique of SJW journalists. Who demand in the first place that people police their own. Will they call on people not to doxx and harass on their behalf? No. I would go further and say they probably approve quietly of people losing their jobs for "supporting harassment" no matter if they ever actually harassed anyone or not.

[Longknife]

 

 

 

 

I don't really know where the idea of "SJWs have to make gestures we are unwilling to make, BECAUSE REASONS" is coming from, but it looks like a huge steaming pile of horsecrap from where I'm standing.

 

The other way around. They are hypocrites.

 

 

Let me get this straight. Anti-GG spokespeople get harrassed. They respond to this by collectively calling GG-ers abusive backwards cavemen or something. GG-ers brush this off and get their pitchforks. The sight of pitchforks awakens atavistic impulses in certain elements of anti-GGers, who start to harrass GG-ers. GG-ers collectively call anti-GG-ers bad names, and when they do the exact same thing GG-ers have done a few days ago when faced with name-calling based on the actions of a deranged few, it's a proof of their inferiority and lack of moral backbone?

 

 

 

 

He's merely asking you to put yourself in their shoes.

 

AKA....

 

GG supporters allegedly took part in harassment.

SJW asked them to stop the harassment.

The harassment continues to occur off and on, but the collective group claims to not condone the actions.

SJW supporters allegedly took part in harassment.

GG asked them to stop the harassment.

??????

 

 

The point is either:

 

A) Why haven't they publicly stated they don't condone or support the actions? It's radio silence on their end.

 

or in my opinion more importantly

 

B) You'll find yourself responding with "how the HELL do you expect me to stop a bunch of strangers on the internet who happen to hold the same stance as me from taking part in harassment? I can't and I can't be held responsible for them."

 

 

Grats, neither can we.

 

That's the point, that's the message.

 

 

Weird, I thought this was the message:

 

 

They are hypocrites

 

(Snark aside, your post is well-argued and completely reasonable. But that doesn't change the fact that it's not the sentiment he's expressed.)

 

 

 

Then how about both sides drop it?

 

I'm just saying, you guys are ALL basically nitpicking now. It's all "you argued incorrectly because of THIS!" rather than any actual discussion about the subject matter at hand. If any of you believe someone is incapable of productive debate or whatever, kindly ignore them and move on.

 

Cause yeah watching this thread from the sidelines for the last page or so....? Not a DAMNED thing of value has been said, just finger pointing and nitpicking.

[Longknife]

I like how I call for productive discussion AND THEN THE THREAD DIES.

[Blarghagh]

Haha, that's pretty damning. I felt my posts regarding people getting doxxed and media companies pulling strings were fairly relevant to the topic of censorship.

[Malcador]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Them stepping out for or against GG could change the tide of the battle.

See, this is why it's become impossible to take a side here. Because the sides don't see it as what it is - consumer revolt. They see it was a battle, a war. And bad stuff that happens is casualties of war. At this point, both sides have become the bad guy because of people's penchant for being overdramatic.

Yeah, basically. Also don't forget the whole "you can't really be a moderate/neutral party here" angle, when the self-proclaimed moderates on one side are throwing around charming phrases like "social justice fascists want to force all games to conform to their deplorable and morally bankrupt worldview".

 

 

@ TN

 

I also want to add that some of you guys, and I mean Nonek specifically, have started throwing around the word SJF.."Social justice fascists" as way to now describe SJW, it was bad enough that for many people the word SJW is actually meant as an insult on most forums but now you have to call us fascists? Do you really think this is fair and reasonable ?

 

What's next? I'm expecting someone to say SJN " Social Justice Nazi's " because that is the way this drama is going for some people

Perfectly ok to call you people that. Given your approach of "I know best" and belief the state is the best way for that. You yourself have posted stuff like that 3 or 4 times here.

[kirottu]

In other news there has been over 1 000 000 #GamerGate tweets.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

Them stepping out for or against GG could change the tide of the battle.

See, this is why it's become impossible to take a side here. Because the sides don't see it as what it is - consumer revolt. They see it was a battle, a war. And bad stuff that happens is casualties of war. At this point, both sides have become the bad guy because of people's penchant for being overdramatic.

Yeah, basically. Also don't forget the whole "you can't really be a moderate/neutral party here" angle, when the self-proclaimed moderates on one side are throwing around charming phrases like "social justice fascists want to force all games to conform to their deplorable and morally bankrupt worldview".

 

 

@ TN

 

I also want to add that some of you guys, and I mean Nonek specifically, have started throwing around the word SJF.."Social justice fascists" as way to now describe SJW, it was bad enough that for many people the word SJW is actually meant as an insult on most forums but now you have to call us fascists? Do you really think this is fair and reasonable ?

 

What's next? I'm expecting someone to say SJN " Social Justice Nazi's " because that is the way this drama is going for some people

Perfectly ok to call you people that. Given your approach of "I know best" and belief the state is the best way for that. You yourself have posted stuff like that 3 or 4 times here.

 

 

The word fascist is offensive, the word warrior is not. You can  make the same point without feeling the need to insult people. I'm surprised I have to even explain this ?

[Elerond]

Alum, I agree this isn't about games journalism. It's about cultural marxism and censorship.

 

I hate the fact Gamergaters don't seem to believe in sources. I'm trying to find sources for the claim that Rantic Media, the media group now spearheading the #shutdown4chan campaign, actually owned the website that was used to make the (alleged 4chan) threat of "releasing Emma Watson nude photos". I suppose the fact that emmayournext.com now redirects to rantic.com means something but I'd prefer to get some actual sources for once. That's the problem with censorship. If it's true, it's another case of maliciously and willfully misrepresenting innocent people as being misogynist.

http://whois.domaintools.com/emmayournext.com

 

http://whois.net/whois/emmayournext.com

 

Domain is registered using service in Shanghai that is meant protect privacy of the one who registers the domain. Currently domain don't have web page and is forwarded by name server, which domain was registered on, in San Diego. Service provider and domain owner both also gains advertisement money from every domain click.

 

Domain was registered first time ever in 22.09.2014. It moved it IP location and server at same day, change in IP and location is probably because take down of the page, which domain was registered for. That is only location change that domain has.

 

From this information I would say it is probably quite impossible to find out who registered the domain and put web page threating Emma up.

Edited September 24, 2014 by Elerond

[Blarghagh]

Fair enough. At the time I posted that, however, emmayournext.com actually redirected to rantic.com. No longer.

[kirottu]

One Angry Gamer report on emails prior the dozen "gamers are dead" articles and on the articles themselves.

http://blogjob.com/oneangrygamer/2014/09/gamergate-game-journalists-ignored-facts-to-push-gamers-are-dead-agenda-according-to-e-mails/#tvud40HpLEzvexZM.99

[Blarghagh]

Oh hell, the TYFC situation is also linked to Silverstring Media? I'm getting very concerned about this. I wrote it off as being a little too high on the conspiracy theory ladder before but it's sounding more and more likely.

[Blarghagh]

Double post, but Rantic confirms they faked the threat against Emma Watson.

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-24/emma-watson-threats-actually-stunt-to-shut-down-4chan/5766882

 

Look, an actual source!

 

EDIT:

 

I found this when someone answered this link to the question of Wikipedia Bias.

 

Respected college educations offering extra credit to people for adding "feminist principles of social justice" to Wikipedia (their words, not mine).

 

http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=5028

 

Does that seem somewhat problematic to anyone else or is it just me? I'm all for closing the gender gap but this isn't adding a female perspective but an idealogy's perspective.

Edited September 24, 2014 by TrueNeutral

[BruceVC]

Double post, but Rantic confirms they faked the threat against Emma Watson.

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-24/emma-watson-threats-actually-stunt-to-shut-down-4chan/5766882

 

Look, an actual source!

 

Yes this is much better than Twitter comments, well done young grasshopper

 

But I'll be honest I am missing the reason for all this attention on this issue, I'm not sure what you are saying this proves or means. This is how I understand the chain of events

 

• the 4chan forums leaked photos of nude celebrities
• the celebs are now hurt, embarrassed and angry  ensure there publicists start doing anything to close down or harm 4chan
• This includes hiring a company to create  this viral marketing which they admit to, so no conspiracy there

Where is the issues?

[Malcador]

Any course where you get extra credit always unimpresses me. Though extra credit for propagandizing ? Hilarious.

[Ineth]

Obsidian is already one of the most "artistic" developers, but not pushing the "right" message with their writing gifts.

 

Out of curiosity, do you mean to say that Obsidian is not pushing any message, or that they are pushing a different one than endorsed by game "journalists"?

[Nonek]

Perhaps Obsidian is a large company of individuals (like gamers) whom have many different views on the subject of gamersgate, the anarchists making threats against various people and the social justice fascists, who are censoring, slandering and threatening people. There's probably a large amount of moderates like us looking on and judging the respective sides by their actions, who do not identify with either group of extremists.

Edited September 24, 2014 by Nonek

[Blarghagh]

 

Double post, but Rantic confirms they faked the threat against Emma Watson.

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-24/emma-watson-threats-actually-stunt-to-shut-down-4chan/5766882

 

Look, an actual source!

 

Yes this is much better than Twitter comments, well done young grasshopper

 

But I'll be honest I am missing the reason for all this attention on this issue, I'm not sure what you are saying this proves or means. This is how I understand the chain of events

 

• the 4chan forums leaked photos of nude celebrities
• the celebs are now hurt, embarrassed and angry  ensure there publicists start doing anything to close down or harm 4chan
• This includes hiring a company to create  this viral marketing which they admit to, so no conspiracy there

Where is the issues?

 

 

They admitted to it after the fact and that they admitted to it is irrelevant when compared to the fact that they intentionally created a false harassment campaign to create controversy and spread misinformation (if you don't consider that to be wrong I don't know what to tell you). I find it relevant because it demonstrates how easy it is as well as how willing the nebulous "they" (meaning the cultural marxists and third wave feminists who wish to control media messages who I am assuming are responsible for this) are to create falsify information and spread it which is wrong regardless of what their intentions are. The end justifies the means to these people and that is an objectively awful way to conduct yourself. Also, it is relevant in the way that it demonstrates that the people creating the false narratives still don't do the research as they continue to pretend that 4chan is some kind of single entity rather than a random place for people with all kinds of opinions to gather anonymously.

 

I also find it relevant because before they admitted it, the only sources reporting on the truth were social media posts while journalists and other media picked it up as the truth which goes again to prove that what is posted on social media should not be dismissed out of hand rather than looked at on a case by case basis.

 

So essentially, it's very relevant as it lends credibility to a lot of the claims of conspiracy and collusion by GamerGaters.

 

Kazerad sums up most of my current feelings on GamerGate pretty well and reinforces to me why it is important:

http://kazerad.tumblr.com/post/98113646063/gamergate-primer-finale

 

Especially this section:

 

 

 

Gaming is not a big deal. The gaming journalism industry is small and poor, and they don’t have the money or experience to launch any major information coverup or maintain a sizable conspiracy. This whole thing has been a sloppy and pathetic attempt at a real conspiracy.

 

And yet, people are still falling for it.

 

Sure, it might not matter now. A news site can declare “gamers are misogynists! We need to push back!” and the worst that will happen is some people get bullied on the internet or mailed an ominous syringe. But what happens when the news declares “Egyptians are terrorists! We need to attack!”? What happens when you have actual collusion and falsified information, headed by professionals, guiding you to political conclusions?

 

The manipulation tactics people have fallen for over the course of GamerGate are appalling in their simplicity. You see people using grouping as a call to arms - “you’re a social justice warrior. If you want to keep being one, you need to stand against these misogynists with me”. You see harassment and threats given to people who speak out - before the syringe, Milo Yiannopoulos was sent 90 rolls of toilet paper as a presumed message of “I know where you live (and you’re ****)”. You see people using guilt by association - citing Adam Baldwin’s homophobic statements and how he’s a GamerGate supporter - or relying on the Genetic Fallacy - pointing out how much of this started on 4chan and claiming that ruins its credibility. I swear you even see ****ing negging: people getting hit with these subtle implications that they’re inherently racist or overprivelaged, but that they can counteract it a bit by opposing GamerGate. Negging, for God’s sake! 

 

If you want a picture of how sloppy this entire operation is, consider this for a moment: there is no name for people who are against GamerGate. People who oppose abortion, for example, get the cheerful title of “Pro-Life”, but people who oppose GamerGate aren’t pro- anything. They can say “I’m pro-safety in the games industry”, but then GamerGate people just reply “so are we. We want people to be able to speak without losing their jobs”. They could say “I’m pro-women in gaming”, but then GamerGate people point out that they are too, and funded The Fine Young Capitalists after they were DDos’d and slandered by journalists and their friends. If they say they’re against harassment, the GamerGate people will point out that they have been actively calling out harassers in their own ranks while their opposition hasn’t. The anti-Gamergate people can’t even claim they’re “pro-representation in media” because, as people have pointed out, the gaming journalism clique is predominantly white men. #NotYourShield was created (and promptly ignored) because minorities were pissed off at these people’s claims to “represent” them. The only position anti-GamerGate people have is that they are against GamerGate. Sometimes, they even endorse all its goals but are pushed to stand against it anyway.

 

And this is all so easymode. We are better than this; these are manipulation tactics that should be harmlessly bouncing off anyone who graduated highschool. I’m glad that GamerGate seems to be winning, but understand: we need to be able to win harder. We need to learn from this, and become resistant to these methods. There are bigger enemies all around us, and we can’t afford to waste this much time struggling to beat the rat in the starting dungeon.

Edited September 24, 2014 by TrueNeutral

[Elerond]

Double post, but Rantic confirms they faked the threat against Emma Watson.

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-24/emma-watson-threats-actually-stunt-to-shut-down-4chan/5766882

 

Look, an actual source!

 

EDIT:

 

I found this when someone answered this link to the question of Wikipedia Bias.

 

Respected college educations offering extra credit to people for adding "feminist principles of social justice" to Wikipedia (their words, not mine).

 

http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=5028

 

Does that seem somewhat problematic to anyone else or is it just me? I'm all for closing the gender gap but this isn't adding a female perspective but an idealogy's perspective.

 

I find it bit ironic that 4chan got burned by somebody else's hoax, as their community seems to be source to many hoax news/photos/etc in internet. But Rantic should get fined from false and unethical marketing which was aimed to slander another company's product and it users.

 

Wikipedia manipulation is sadly so everyday thing that one can't use Wikipedia as reliable source anything that falls outside of defining meaning of things (as these are subjective matters anyway so one subjective meaning isn't any worse than other if everybody uses same definition), because Wikipedia is used to slander politician, harsh people and other wise spread false information by people that are paid to do so.

 

University credits for writing Wikipedia articles or fixing existing articles so that they correspond with University's teaching has been typical thing for at least ten years in here Finland and I don't think that Finnish universities (and) have been any sort pioneers in this sort of activity. I am not fond such credit programs even though they are well meaning ones, but in my opinion (as I haven't researched subject) such programs have high change to produce biased articles, because they are written by people that are learning scientific principalities, who probably lack knowledge about subject and their main motivation is probably to get credit points not to spread information about subject.  So I agree with you that giving credits for writing feminist, social justice or any Wikipedia articles is problematic thing to do, because if nothing else it can give students conception that Wikipedia is reliable source for information, which it sadly isn't.

[Ganrich]

Out of curiosity, do you mean to say that Obsidian is not pushing any message, or that they are pushing a different one than endorsed by game "journalists"?

Neither. I think they are asking questions about morals within the backdrop of their subject matter and seeing where that takes them. At least this is how I feel about kotor 2, MotB, FONV, and possibly PoE (given a specific quest we see in the beta). Less so in dungeon siege IMHO, and I haven't played AP in a while so my memory is fuzzy.

 

Kreia, for instance, in most of the game tries to speak against extremism (even if she is extremist herself) which I believe isn't exactly something that the media would support in the current climate. Maybe the media doesn't see the censorship stuff, the attacks on people that disagree with them, or whatever as extremist. I am unsure there. Anyway, I think Obsidian leaves the players with really interesting ethical questions that don't always have a good (morally acceptable to everyone) way to solve it and sometimes that may coincide with what the media would prefer, and sometimes not.

 

I do think they try to not use the game as a pulpit though. They also like letting the player find their own way which is important. However, a writer's ideology will always slip through at times. I have rarely felt Obsidian being preachy, but I may have not remembered something. I am human.

[Volourn]

Uh yes they do. Kreia is extremely good example. It's very preachy. You take the characters from PST which Kreia is based on - not preachy at all hence vastly superior.

[kirottu]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/features/12306-Female-Game-Developers-Make-Statements-on-GamerGate

 

Escapist magazine posts views of female developers about GamerGate. It really shows how fast misinformation has been accepted and mirrors well what TrueNeutral spoke about the whole Rantic thing. Anti-GG crowd has apparently successfully created GamerGate boogieman who harasses anyone and everyone all the time.

 

Next batch will have more pro-GG developers, but... I just don't know. It was a really depressing read. It left me feeling like no progress has been made whatsoever.

 

Even in internet era those who control the news control the information.

 

I'm going to bed. 

[Blarghagh]

Yeah, I'm not going to lie, it's depressing. The misrepresentation doesn't even bother me anymore, it's the fact that any legitimate grievances and concerns - serious concerns regarding censorship, media corruption and artistic freedom - are now taboo by association because "nuh uh, this is an argument misogynists made, if you make it too you're misogynist!"

 

And what bothers me most is that the white men who make these claims gave ****ing GTA 10/10.

 

Hell, even on the other side. Discussions of actual women's issues are being ignored because "nuh uh, this argument is made by SJWs, if you make it too you're an SJW!". Important things are being ignored across the board and really there is no way forward until this dies down.

 

EDIT: To add something more productive to this conversation, here's the perspective of Ryan Smith, the one person in the GameJournoPros convos who spoke out and questioned the others in how far they were willing to go to censor other viewpoints:

 

https://medium.com/@ryansmithwriter/a-weird-insider-culture-d1c3cc644c29

 

 

In my year and a half in the group, I was often the only dissenting opinion in specific topics and most of the time I got totally ignored. Sometimes I was criticized or told I was off-topic. Sometimes I was warned I was “creating a hostile environment” to specific people for disagreeing with them in an unapologetic way, and a couple times I was told I’d be kicked out of the group. The informal pressure to “fall in line” with the groupthink was very strong.

Edited September 24, 2014 by TrueNeutral

[Fighter]

I'm also tired of hearing the word "organized" when it comes to harassment. There is nothing organized there, it's completely sporadic. The only things organized are some of the GG podcasts. That and some people spreading boycott and mailing lists on their own initiative.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/features/12306-Female-Game-Developers-Make-Statements-on-GamerGate

 

Escapist magazine posts views of female developers about GamerGate. It really shows how fast misinformation has been accepted and mirrors well what TrueNeutral spoke about the whole Rantic thing. 

 

Weirdly enough, to me, it shows that several female game developers speak from experience when they recall harrassment for supporting "SJWs". 

 

They also echo many of my own thoughts on the matter. If you'll allow me, I'll point out the quotes I've found the most insightful.

 

 

 

 No one is trying to 'destroy games' or take away 'hardcore games' or tell anyone what games they should or should not play. No one is trying to say that the 'male video game culture' has to die. What they are saying is that the current culture and ecosystem surrounding games has some toxic and unwelcoming areas and THAT needs to change.

 

What many are also saying, and what I wish was considered 'obvious' to everyone, is that having a more diverse group of game developers creating a more diverse set of games played by a more diverse set of players is good for everyone in the industry. It keeps this industry sustainable and creates an environment that allows creative, engaging games of all types to be made so that everyone can experience the joys of playing video games.

[Malcador]

I liked the scolding rant that is #1's contribution. Nothing unexpected, though.

 

GamerGate has definitely affected me personally and professionally. Too many friends have been on the front lines, bearing the brunt of the internet's wrath, and I have survivor's guilt for not being more involved as though making myself a target would really help anyone

This was pretty funny, made me laugh out loud - "survivor's guilt" for a flame war, and I really believe she meant this nonsense.