Talents needed for Archetypes Part 1, NWN2

[Doppelschwert]

This thread is intended to suggest talents that specialize the gameplay of classes into more specific archetypes, similiar how prestige classes in DnD 3.X work.

 

The guidelines I tried to follow during this write up are the following:

 

- Work with what is in the game, e.g. no absurdly demanding changes to systems, so that it could be actually implemented

- Ignore actual numbers (for the most part) as they would need to be tweaked anyway

- Ignore upgrades to basic stats like 'Deflection +X' , focus on concepts

- Try to give an incentive to play the class according to its subtype instead of boring flat out passive bonuses

- Respect the design paradigm, e.g. avoid too much class overlap or having actual dual classes that can do what both classes do simultaneously without much of a disadvantage

 

What's the difference between this thread and the other talent threads?

 

It's organized by archetype. In particular, I mostly comment on prestige classes from NWN 2 in this thread where some KITs from BG2 will follow later. I suggest some talents with a short motivation when I think it makes sense or explain why the concept can be already realized (in theory) otherwise.

 

Before I get to the classes, I drew a conclusion to the overall design of prestige classes:

IMO, prestige Classes in NWN2 fall in one of four categories, relative to their base classes:

 

1) Dual Classes

Examples: Arcane Trickster, Divine Champion, Sacred Fist

IMO, are not applicable to the design of PoE as they give you roughly 75% progression in both classes, whereas PoE aims for something like at most 80% / 20% by customization with talents.

 

2) More of the Same, slightly different

Examples: Assassin(Rogue), Frenzied Berserker(Barbarian), Arcane Scholar, Doomguide

Most of the unique stuff is either already incorporated into the classes in PoE or the difference is systematic in DnD so that it'd hardly make sense to transfer it into extra talents for this. As for the talents that just make classes better at what they do, no one needs me to come up with them so I skip them.

 

2.5) Flavour without new mechanics

Examples: Shadow Thief, Harper Scout

Suffers from the same problems as 2)

 

3) New Concepts or some kind of twist to mechanics

Examples: Dragon Disciple, Pale Master, Duelist, Shadowdancer

These are things I feel should be included in PoE via Talents if possible, although special fighting styles (duelist, dwarfen defender) are already implemented in PoE in terms of equipment properties.

 

I will skip some of the prestige classes I consider to be in 1) and 2) and especially in 2.5).

 

So let's start with NWN2.

 

1) Arcane Archer

 

Summary: Elven wizards that can deliver their spells through archery.

 

Motivation: TBH, I don't think there is one. There should be more ways to play a dedicated archer other than the ranger, however, the focus of this class lies in the spells. It works well in PnP but didn't work that great in the NWNs because of the implementation of spells via talents. Too convoluted and gimmicky to apply to PoE, so passed. More on archers when dealing with KITs.

 

2) Arcane Trickster

 

Summary: Spellthieves that combine their cunning and magical talents.

 

Available to: Rogue

 

Spellthief (Active, 1/Encounter)

Targets Will, on success steals an enemies buff and gives it to the user.

 

Motivation:

That's basically all there is unique to this class, otherwise it's just a wizard and a rogue at the same time, so it goes against design intent.

 

3) Assassin

 

Summary: Stealthy killers that use afflictions to weaken their target.

Motivation: IMO, that's basically the rogue in PoE, so passed.

 

4) Blackguard

 

Summary: Dark Warriors serving evil.

 

Available to: Paladin

 

Nefarious X [Modal, Aura]

Prerequisite: Zealous X (any Aura already learned, where X denotes the aura)

Replaces Zealous X. Gives half the positive effect of Zealous X to the party and inverts the full positive effect of Zealous X on the enemies (on the opposing stat).
Examples:

Zealous Focus gives accuracy.

Nefarious Focus gives minor accuracy but reduces enemies deflection.

 

Zealous March gives +2 Movement Speed to the party.

Nefarious March gives +1 Movement Speed to the party and -2 Movement Speed to the enemies.

 

Motivation: Turns buffs into debuffs (on the same action) , inverting the role, so there is a parallel. Note that there is a subtle difference between „0.5 buff on the party, 1 debuff on enemy“ and „1.5 buff to the party“ as the effect is based on proximity to the paladin.

 

5) Divine Champion

 

Summary: Bastardchilds of Paladins and Fighters.

Motivation: IMO, that's basically the paladin in PoE, so passed.

 

6) Duelist

 

Summary: Dexterous fencer focused on parrying and making riposte attacks.

Motivation: IMO, that's basically the fighter with a rapier and having defender turned on all the time. In particular, it's hard to come up with a defensive fighting stance without the concept of attacks per rounds that doesn't end up being too similar to defender. So passed in a way.

 

7) Dwarfen Defender

 

Summary: Dwarfen Bollwerks on the frontline.

Motivation: IMO, that's basically the fighter in PoE, so passed.

 

The Gish / Eldritch Knight / Warpriest

 

Summary: Magic wielders that go to the frontline, using weapon and magic alike.

 

Available to: Cipher, Druid, Priest, Wizard.

 

i) Battlemage [Modal]

Get a minor penalty to accuracy.

When using a spell, get a medium bonus for the next melee attack.

When using a melee attack, get a medium bonus for the next spell.

 

ii) Defensive Casting

Prerequisite: Battlemage

When Battlemage is active, get a minor penalty to deflection.

While one of the bonues of Battlemage is active, get additional a medium bonus to deflection.

 

iii) Concentrated Casting

Prerequisite: Battlemage

While one of the bonues of Battlemage is active, get a medium bonus to concentration during spellcasting.

 

iv) Extended Arcane Veil

Prerequiste: Arcane Veil

Changes Arcane Veil from 1 Use/Day, 25 Deflection to 1 Use/Encounter, 15 Deflection.

 

Motivation:

There is a clear incentive to switch between casting and attacking, which IMO is the main principle of a gish and it boosts the stats neccessary. I feel that it's neccessary to tie the bonus to melee only, as it is pretty much a no-brainer if it's working with ranged weapons. What kind of gish you play depends on the base class you are picking. It's modal instead of passive so that you can play defensively with ranged weapons if an encounter demands that.

Note that the boni don't stack, so after making 10 melee attacks, it's neither a 10 times accuracy boost on the next spell nor an accuracy bonus for the next 10 spells, the same for the melee bonus.

 

9) Frenzied Berserker:

 

Summary: Ravaging Madmen.

 

Available to: Barbarian

 

i) Self Sacrificial Rage [Modal]

Increased Attack Rate but Damage over Time.

 

ii) Greater Carnage

Increases the range of carnage.

 

Motivation:

Frenzied Berserker resolves around maximal hurt, both in absolute damage and splash damage, but the barbarian already does most of this anyway.

 

10) Invisible Blade

 

Summary: Clever Fighters using Daggers.

 

Motivation: Contained in the rogue, just dual wield daggers. Passed.

 

11) Pale Master

 

Summary: Necromancers on a first step to becoming lichs.

 

Motivation: Sadly, it's not really applicable in the setting. Either way, the chanter somehow has control over undead summons already, so passed in a sense.

 

12) Red Dragon Disciple

 

Summary: Descendants of Dragons, invoking their draconic Heritage.

 

Motivation: Should be in as a talent line for druids, with the third talent or so giving a dragon shapeshift. That'd be awesome for an expansion, as shapeshift forms are already locked for the main game.

 

13) Sacred Fist

 

Summary: Monks using divine magic from within.

 

Motivation: The unique abilities are already on the monk in PoE, otherwise it's just a cleric and monk at the same time, so passed.

 

14) Shadowdancer

 

Summary: Artists of deception, operating on the border between light and shadow.

 

Motivation: Given that there is no stealth during combat, a concept like hide in plain sight is not possible, and it would also go against the principle of mixing combat and noncombat skills.

 

15) Weapon Master

 

Summary: Masters of a single Weapon, using them as if they were part of their body.

 

Motivation: Given the focus on being able to switch weapon sets, I don't think there is much chance to get talents to specialize in a single weapon instead of a category, which takes the concept ad absurdum.

 

More on KITs from BG2 on a later day. Please note that because the way DnD 3.X works differently from DnD2, there aren't actually a lot of talents that can be recovered from the prestige classes. The KITs in BG2 should be more open for special talents.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Doppelschwert]

Selfish bump.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Doppelschwert

[Doppelschwert]

I understand that it's a wall of text, however, I'd still like to get some kind of feedback.

Where do you agree/disagree?

What character archetypes are not representable at the moment and for which reasons?

[Infinitron]

Dude, don't try to force it

[illathid]

Well, I'd argue that the NWN prestige classes don't do a great job of really showing off different Archetypes. I'd maybe go about doing it by listing all sorts of different archetypes you think would fit under a given class, and go from there.

 

For example, here's a few character archetypes for the fighter:

 

Gladiator

Mercenary

Duelist

Bodyguard

[Lasweetlife]

Interesting ideas. Should be posted in this thread: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68002-talents-what-would-be-wanted-and-what-is-needed

Edited September 8, 2014 by Lasweetlife

[Seari]

I get what you're trying to do, but these prestige classes are just too focused and simply don't work in PoE and neither do the kits in BG2 unfortunately.

 

I honestly don't know how to make these classes more diverse with talents, because they were designed to work without them and that's a problem in itself. I don't know how to increase build diversity, because this system is really inflexible. Or maybe it's because I'm really unfamiliar with it, I don't know.

 

I think the attributes need to be reworked for there to be more build diversity, talents won't be enough, but what the hell do I know. Maybe Sensuki's and Matt's upcoming thread will save us from these troubled times.

[nipsen]

Yeah, good read. Several good ideas for the extra talents Josh wanted. But I kind of think most of the talents should be a bit more ..unique? ..More PoE and narratively consistent within that setting? Just without sounding like it's pulled out of an anime, I guess. "Soul Edge" could lower the damage threshold but do less damage, maybe. ..too anime already?

[anameforobsidian]

Eh, a lot of these prestige classes seem a little high level for PE.  Remember that it's aiming at about a BG1.  Also should be in the other thread.

[Valorian]

I'll just say that it's disappointing that by level 8 the player gets to pick 2 talents.

[Lasweetlife]

I'll just say that it's disappointing that by level 8 the player gets to pick 2 talents.

Yeah, the frequency of talents definitely needs to be increased.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

What if talents were picked every even level? That sound good to every one?

[Karkarov]

I am not sure they want something this extensive for talents.  Though I definitely think this is going in the right direction.  May be better if you try to think of it purely from a Eternity standpoint and not consider what the other IE games or RPG's do at all.

 

For example you might want to create a talent to support weird stuff like....  fighter talents...

 

Deadly Pressure: Can trigger engagement on enemies with successful ranged hit.

 

Or....

 

Armsman: +10 Deflection when using a two handed weapon

[Valorian]

What if talents were picked every even level? That sound good to every one?

 

+ on character creation. I suppose it does sound good to (almost) everyone, as it's been suggested plenty of times.

Even back in 2013. when some people had meltdowns while arguing that the ratio of combat abilities to non combat abilities wouldn't ever possibly be greater than 9:1 in favor of combat abilities.

[Ganrich]

I agree that 1 on character creation and 1 on every level divisible by 2 would make me really happy. Also, I believe the fighter already gets another feat at level 4 so they should keep that. Obsidian can't do Multiclassing because of time... So IMHO we need more variety and more options in the talents.

[Doppelschwert]

Dude, don't try to force it

 

Deep down I know you are right, but I put quite some effort into the list and had a forum bug where my thread would be shown as '2 views so far' even when posting the second post, which got me a bit angry. Only after my second post did it update to the actual number of views.

You know, I think this is probably the only way I can help the game somehow, so I'd like to contribute my part.

 

Well, I'd argue that the NWN prestige classes don't do a great job of really showing off different Archetypes. I'd maybe go about doing it by listing all sorts of different archetypes you think would fit under a given class, and go from there.

 

Yeah, you are right. Listing archetypes was also my motivation, but I figured I should start with the ones known from other games.

 

Interesting ideas. Should be posted in this thread: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68002-talents-what-would-be-wanted-and-what-is-needed

 

Will do that after this post, thanks.

 

I get what you're trying to do, but these prestige classes are just too focused and simply don't work in PoE and neither do the kits in BG2 unfortunately.

 

I honestly don't know how to make these classes more diverse with talents, because they were designed to work without them and that's a problem in itself. I don't know how to increase build diversity, because this system is really inflexible. Or maybe it's because I'm really unfamiliar with it, I don't know.

 

I think the attributes need to be reworked for there to be more build diversity, talents won't be enough, but what the hell do I know. Maybe Sensuki's and Matt's upcoming thread will save us from these troubled times.

 

I implicitly assume that the attributes get fixed; on the other hand, attributes are not enough on their own as well, therefore the thread.

 

Eh, a lot of these prestige classes seem a little high level for PE.  Remember that it's aiming at about a BG1.  Also should be in the other thread.

I agree that 1 on character creation and 1 on every level divisible by 2 would make me really happy. Also, I believe the fighter already gets another feat at level 4 so they should keep that. Obsidian can't do Multiclassing because of time... So IMHO we need more variety and more options in the talents.

 

There is definitely a problem to make these two work together. On one hand, everyone would like to have more customization, but on the other hand if you make talents too common, there are just too much talents if you interpolate this to be a trilogy ending at lvl 30 or something.

I think the best thing to do would be to give general talents at lvl 1 and then at every third level beginning with level 3, while giving every fourth level the choice between some smaller passive upgrades for class abilities. This way, you have roughly 7 choices in 12 levels, so around every second level, without watering talents down by much.

 

I agree with all other posts.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Doppelschwert