About stamina/health and an idea how to fix it

[Zwiebelchen]

There's many discussions currently about how the stamina/health system basicly enforces rest-spamming, as stamina is more or less a disposable resource that is going to get meta-gamed hard, in order to not lose the actually important resource that is health.

 

Some people argue that the system basicly makes you decide to sacrifice your characters tactically (by dropping stamina to zero) in order to not get them actually killed (dropping health to zero).

Also, as it is most likely your tank that is going to accumulate health damage while all other characters will probably not suffer any damage, this makes rest spamming even worse.

 

 

So in order to fix these problems, let us collect a number of user oppinions on how the system could be tweaked in order to work properly, without removing the system completely, which is clearly not an option considering how it is and was intended to be a core feature of the game to prevent degenerative gameplay and considering how it's probably too late to apply changes at core game design level.

 

 

When posting, try to keep your ideas short and to the point. Anything that is too complicated probably won't be of any value anyway, as the system must be easily understandable for every new player.

 

 

So here's my ideas:

 

- remove the linear dependency of health to stamina and instead, make it based on the current stamina of the character

--> while the character is above 75% stamina, he loses no health at all when being hit

--> if the character is between 50% and 75% stamina, he loses health at an 8 to 1 ratio.

--> if the character is between 25% and 50% stamina, he loses health at a 4 to 1 ratio (current ratio).

--> if the character is below 25% stamina, he loses health at a 2 to 1 ratio.

- losing all stamina and dropping on the ground will result in health being reduced to 1, no matter where it was before.

 

So what does this do?

1) it makes stamina regeneration and stamina healing spells much more useful

2) trivial encounters won't be as annoying anymore

3) it makes more sense from a lore perspective (light wounds heal faster than strong wounds)

4) Heavily wounded characters are not per se useless in combat anymore, as they won't get further health damage unless dropping stamina too far again in the next battle ... there's more "RNG protection" for heavily wounded characters

5) Overall less RNG.

 

Imho, this would be a quick and easy fix that can be done by just shifting some numbers around.

 

 

There's still be some meta, like stacking stamina on characters and kiting to avoid dropping stamina below the 50% margin, but hey, that's better than the current frustrating meta of having to rest almost every second battle.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Zwiebelchen

[Mayama]

If you need to rest after every second battle you do something wrong, once per map is usually enough if you know how to deal with the enemies you encounter.

[Sensuki]

That makes heavy armor far too strong IMO.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Sensuki

[Sarex]

Or here is an idea, remove stamina and bring back healing but don't make it per encounter.

[PrimeJunta]

Meh, I think it's fine as it is if the ratio is just tuned somewhat. Adding that kind of curve to it would make it less intuitive. Maimed characters are supposed to be fragile.

[Zwiebelchen]

If you need to rest after every second battle you do something wrong, once per map is usually enough if you know how to deal with the enemies you encounter.

 

 That basicly, again, forces meta on top of you. You can't know what's behind the next corner unless told so by NPCs. Also, higher difficulty levels are a thing.

 

 

That makes heavy armor far too strong IMO.

 

 ... which would kind of be understandable, considering that's the point of heavy armor, not?

 

I agree that it might not be the "one fix to rule them all", but it would at least reduce the frustration when fighting a group of weak enemies having RNGesus crits.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Zwiebelchen

[Elerond]

That makes heavy armor far too strong IMO.

 

And fighter would be nearly immortal with their constant stamina recovery.

[Zwiebelchen]

 

That makes heavy armor far too strong IMO.

 

And fighter would be nearly immortal with their constant stamina recovery.

 

 

Numbers have to be balanced, definitely. It's just the overall concept I'm talking about. Fighter stamina recovery could always be nerfed to accomodate such a change in rules.

[Mayama]

 

If you need to rest after every second battle you do something wrong, once per map is usually enough if you know how to deal with the enemies you encounter.

 

 That basicly, again, forces meta on top of you. You can't know what's behind the next corner unless told so by NPCs. Also, higher difficulty levels are a thing.

 

Ok I seriously start to question the skill level of people here on the forum. You can usually clear every map in the beta with one rest on easy, normal and hard. If you for example kill the stone beetles bevor the wood beetles than the problem is the player not the system. Their are so many people here asking for changes because they dont want to think or adapt. Rest spamming like in any IE title removed so much tactic from the game because their was zero resource management involved. You cant rest spam in PoE so adapt and learn.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Mayama

[Elerond]

 

If you need to rest after every second battle you do something wrong, once per map is usually enough if you know how to deal with the enemies you encounter.

 

 That basicly, again, forces meta on top of you. You can't know what's behind the next corner unless told so by NPCs. Also, higher difficulty levels are a thing.

 

 

Even on most highest difficulty level with every extra difficulty option turned on you don't need spam rest (which you cannot even do as your resting is so limited). 

 

You don't need to know specific encounters to survive them without scratch you only need to know how game mechanics about work. Although if players don't scout ahead will have much harder time ahead of them.

[Elerond]

 

 

That makes heavy armor far too strong IMO.

 

And fighter would be nearly immortal with their constant stamina recovery.

 

 

Numbers have to be balanced, definitely. It's just the overall concept I'm talking about. Fighter stamina recovery could always be nerfed to accomodate such a change in rules.

 

 

That would need also serious balancing on other abilities that fighter has or other wise they lose lot of power compared to other classes. And also Barbarian would need quite lot balancing in such system not to be too superior, also monks could become even more ultimate warriors than what they currently are.

[Zwiebelchen]

 

 

If you need to rest after every second battle you do something wrong, once per map is usually enough if you know how to deal with the enemies you encounter.

 

 That basicly, again, forces meta on top of you. You can't know what's behind the next corner unless told so by NPCs. Also, higher difficulty levels are a thing.

 

Ok I seriously start to question the skill level of people here on the forum. You can usually clear every map in the beta with one rest on easy, normal and hard. If you for example kill the stone beetles bevor the wood beetles than the problem is the player not the system. Their are so many people here asking for changes because they dont want to think or adapt. Rest spamming like in any IE title removed so much tactic from the game because their was zero resource management involved. You cant rest spam in PoE so adapt and learn.

 

 

The thing is: as long as there isn't a mechanic punishing you for rest-spamming, there is always zero resource management involved. As long as I can freely walk back to the last inn to rest, it's the same as in IE games, just much more annoying.

 

And seriously, it's not about the actual encounter difficulty, because clearly, that is going to change until release depending on the beta input.

 

It's imho just a flaw in mechanics that stamina is a completely disposable resource and that there is almost no real incentive to artifically heal stamina through spells unless you want to prevent the character from dropping to the ground.

 

 

You can grind your way through weak enemies all day long in the IE games - and that makes sense, imho, if you have the power. In PoE, all it takes are some lucky hits and you have to rest again, no matter how easy it was to kill the enemies. You just accumulate that health damage over time even if it basicly were just some minor scratches.

 

A non-linear dependency shifts the weight of required recovery from trivial encounters to critical encounters. A hard battle will have a much larger impact on your health than a group of goblins. Currently, it doesn't matter if you fight trash or story encounters; get hit too often and you have to rest, no matter how easy the fights were. And that is imho just not good game design in terms of pacing.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Zwiebelchen

[PrimeJunta]

The annoyance for having to walk back to the inn is a pretty good motivator to develop better tactics IMO. Not like just hitting the R which isn't much of a motivator at all.

[Elerond]

I think that removing need to rest maybe isn't way to go to prevent rest spamming PoE even though it probably would be quite effective way to stop people doing so.

[Shevek]

The current system is fine. They just need to double the ratios.

[mutonizer]

I think that removing need to rest maybe isn't way to go to prevent rest spamming PoE even though it probably would be quite effective way to stop people doing so.

I just don't understand why you'd design your entire core system (Health being the end all game over mechanic in place) to do that. I mean, I never spam-rest in any IE games because part of my fun is to manage resources properly, what do I care if some people did! And with PoE I won't be able to do that, because Health is out of the resource system so now instead I'll be forced to try and exploit the game using cheesy mechanics or risk be royally screwed over due to artificial supply limitation and ultra punishing Health mechanics.

 

Some people will always abuse the system: who cares in a single player cRPG.

 

Edit:

Plus you can't wait, so now if I want to start exploring an area during the day, I can't, or risk wasting one of my supplies, so I'll be forced to do so at whatever time the game tells me I have to do it. Does that mean night/day doesn't actually mean anything? I mean, limited supplies, no waiting option...you can't really design time specific encounters/events with that in place right?

Edited September 1, 2014 by mutonizer

[Elerond]

 

I think that removing need to rest maybe isn't way to go to prevent rest spamming PoE even though it probably would be quite effective way to stop people doing so.

I just don't understand why you'd design your entire core system (Health being the end all game over mechanic in place) to do that. I mean, I never spam-rest in any IE games because part of my fun is to manage resources properly, what do I care if some people did!

Some people will always abuse the system: who cares in a single player cRPG!

 

 

Designers (at least some/one) of those games cared, which is one reason why they wanted change things in PoE.

 

Rest spamming wasn't only reason why they decided to use health/stamina(or endurance) system, but they also wanted to create world where there aren't healing magic that could heal long time injuries and they liked how Darklands' similar system works.

 

And if you read what they have said subject, you would find out that they don't blame people abusing their systems, as they have designed those ways to abuse them, but they take it as challenge to try to create system which players can't abuse because of their design decisions.

[mutonizer]

Designers (at least some/one) of those games cared, which is one reason why they wanted change things in PoE.

 

Rest spamming wasn't only reason why they decided to use health/stamina(or endurance) system, but they also wanted to create world where there aren't healing magic that could heal long time injuries and they liked how Darklands' similar system works.

 

And if you read what they have said subject, you would find out that they don't blame people abusing their systems, as they have designed those ways to abuse them, but they take it as challenge to try to create system which players can't abuse because of their design decisions.

Hmm, interesting. Very odd but interesting.

 

As for the Darklands reference, wow, had no idea whatsoever from seeing videos/streams of PoE so far. I mean, Darklands is ultra hardcore (talk about no bad builds, geesh!). Really like the reference though (loved that game), hope there will be more hints of it as the beta progresses toward release, but not sure how "no healing magic is powerful enough to heal long term injuries" combines with "you're 100% good after 8 hours rest using a camping supply" and a Darkland reference

[Utukka]

Unfortunately we are all stuck in wait and see mode since this all comes down to balance which isn't final/still a ways off. I'm honestly a bit skeptical that this will work out in the end for me since I like to play on the hardest settings possible with randomly rolled party members...but alas, we just have to wait.

 

Worst case scenario...they fail to achieve a "acceptable" level of balance and I have to install a mod that allows unlimited resting.

 

Just to note..I can see the argument of how "unlimited" resting can "trivialize" difficulty...but that's not always the case. If you disagree...I have a challenge for you

 

Step 1: Fire up Baldurs Gate 2: Put on Insane, Play No Reload.

Step 2: Start a party of 5 randomly rolled members: Class/Race/Attributes..everything random.

Step 3: Begin Play. (Preferably don't abuse bugs/blatant abuse of game. For example.."casts summons" sends in...rests.rinse repeat.)

Step 4: Report back on how that goes over. Preferably with video of the ensuing carnage.

Step 5: Let me know how you feel about "unlimited" resting after going through steps 1-4.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Utukka

[Helm]

The system is absurd and should be scrapped. An HP + injury system would be a much better choice IMO.

 

But nothing will change anyway.

[PrimeJunta]

That's not the argument though.

 

The argument is that unlimited resting trivializes per-rest abilities, in DnD based games, spells. DnD was never intended to have per-encounter spells, but that's effectively what it gets in a cRPG with unlimited resting. One consequence is the way casters eclipse non-casters at high levels.

 

You can always make a game more difficult to make up for that of course. Making things tougher is easy: just raise everything, hit points, attack rolls, saving throws, numbers of enemies, and so on.

[mutonizer]

That's not the argument though.

 

The argument is that unlimited resting trivializes per-rest abilities, in DnD based games, spells. DnD was never intended to have per-encounter spells, but that's effectively what it gets in a cRPG with unlimited resting. One consequence is the way casters eclipse non-casters at high levels.

 

You can always make a game more difficult to make up for that of course. Making things tougher is easy: just raise everything, hit points, attack rolls, saving throws, numbers of enemies, and so on.

Or...you could make time passing actually matter and affects events around you? Cult finishes the ritual, Ogre keeps eating more sheep, bandits cut trade even more, etc.

Anyone tried resting for month at the inn, see if that changes anything with the quests?

[Utukka]

That's not the argument though.

 

The argument is that unlimited resting trivializes per-rest abilities, in DnD based games, spells. DnD was never intended to have per-encounter spells, but that's effectively what it gets in a cRPG with unlimited resting. One consequence is the way casters eclipse non-casters at high levels.

 

You can always make a game more difficult to make up for that of course. Making things tougher is easy: just raise everything, hit points, attack rolls, saving throws, numbers of enemies, and so on.

I get that they are trying to limit per-rest abilities and the "nuke" spam that comes along with being able to rest freely...this is all great and groovy for fully optimized parties/lower difficulty settings but I am a bit nervous that **** is going to hit the fan when you're trying to play no reload with less optimal groups on high difficulty settings, mostly due to health issues. I guess you can make the argument that "x setup" just isn't viable but that's removing a lot of the fun from the game in my opinion. The battles in BG2 on these types of settings with a less than optimal party often left you completely spent and needing rest after each fight(meaningful fights that is).

[redneckdevil]

But then the noncasters get left behind or suffer just like in reg pnp.

i dont have a problem with the system of endurance and health. It seems to make health more important and defining with ur endurance being like a "shield?" or maybe andreinaline being a better word for it since in RL u could be on the verge of death but that would still let ya get up and keep moving etc.

i think really to fix the whole resting thing is do like they do in pnp where u dont heal to full each night and only a certain amount. Can either put in time sensitive material to prevent OR give the illusion that theres a timer going on when there isnt. That way people who are roleplaying can keep pushing on instead of healing after each scrape and people who just want to rest after each scrape can because they chose to.

thatd be awesome if they added a age thing in LOL. Be funny as hell but AWESOME having a group of characters out in tbe wilds for several years because they keep resting after each battle lol.

[Semper]

- losing all stamina and dropping on the ground will result in health being reduced to 1, no matter where it was before.

 

and in which way does this prevent rest spamming?

 

btw i have no issues with the current system in place, although the stamina/health ratio needs further tweaking. right now one loses a tad too much health.