Pretty disappointed, this launches in December?

[Freshock]

It gives you freedom to be critical, but not to be a complete douche. That's the last thing I'm going to say, this is stupid.

[Gladiuss8@gmail.com]

I kind of agree with overall Helm's thought. At the current state, PoE doesn't resemble old ie games at all. But its too early to say, that this design is wrong, as the whole game isn't done yet. So you can't really compare it with finished ie games yet.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Gladiuss8@gmail.com

[Helm]

It gives you freedom to be critical, but not to be a complete douche. That's the last thing I'm going to say, this is stupid.

I think you guys are being complete douches, because you don't this to be a good game like I do.

[Infinitron]

By "gives you the freedom to be critical", I take it you mean that it gives you the freedom to be banned.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Infinitron

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Negativity needs to be banned.

[Silent Winter]

Bug fixing is not enough to save this game, that is why we have numerous threads about the terrible systems design and how bad the game is

Creating threads=terrible design?

But in all those threads it's the same people arguing and there are 2 sides (sometimes 3).

There are those who say "aarrgghhh, the game is doomed I tell you, doooooommmmed!!1!", those who say "Nay, 'tis full of sunshine and buttercups" and those who are somewhere in the middle (thankfully the majority).

 

Systems need tweaking, tha's all

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

Systems need tweaking, tha's all

 

What parts need tweaking?

[Silent Winter]

 

 

Systems need tweaking, tha's all

 

What parts need tweaking?

 

From the feedback I've seen from the beta-testers - the effect of attributes needs slightly more impact, the experience could be given out in more smaller doses, the different classes' talents need implementing.

[Immortalis]

 

 

 

Systems need tweaking, tha's all

 

What parts need tweaking?

 

The system part 

 

 

Only a master detective like L could have told you that!

[Hiro Protagonist II]

From the feedback I've seen from the beta-testers - the effect of attributes needs slightly more impact, the experience could be given out in more smaller doses, the different classes' talents need implementing.

 

Not sure what you mean by attributes need slightly more impact? How would you do that but still have one of your attributes with a 3 and still be viable? If someone mistakenly puts a 3 in an attribute, why should they be penalised? This has been the argument of a lot of posters on this forum for the last 2 years with defending Josh's design of no bad builds.

 

And xp needs to be given out in smaller doses? How would you do that? So now you're not in favour of Obsidian's decision with only Quest Based XP?

Edited September 2, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Mayama]

Gosh, hard to believe how butthurt some people can get when they have to deal with the truth. Now your whining about the criticizers is even getting personal.

 

Bug fixing is not enough to save this game, that is why we have numerous threads about the terrible systems design and how bad the game is. You guys should learn to embrace reality and stop living in denial.

 

By the way, I am a backer. I just haven't linked my backer account to my forum account. It gives me the freedom to be extremely critical. You guys could have figured that out yourselves, but I guess you were too busy flaming all the criticizers and whining about their opinion because they hate the game.

No you are confuse two things here. No one has a problem with people expressing their oppinion. They have a problem with people constantly informing them about their point of view at every possible chance. You say it once, everyone now knows your point of view and everything is fine. If they do not response after the third time, well their might be the possibility that they do not give a **** about it. Grow up and live with it.

[Gladiuss8@gmail.com]

+ combat needs a complete rework xd

 

If someone feel strongly against the design behind the game, that he was waiting for a long time, and he backed it, he will say that he dislike it on every occasion, thats normal I think xd

Edited September 2, 2014 by Gladiuss8@gmail.com

[PrimeJunta]

From the feedback I've seen from the beta-testers - the effect of attributes needs slightly more impact, the experience could be given out in more smaller doses, the different classes' talents need implementing.

 

That, and the combat needs to be de-clusterhugged, and needs more feedback. The AI is also very rough and way too exploitable. These need fixing first.

 

After that and your list, there's B-priority stuff like a cleaner, more consistent UI, better inventory, and what have you.

 

None of these are what I'd call scary-looking things. The only question is how long they'll take to fix.

 

Of course, that won't mean that the hardcore cult of the Anti-Sawyer will be happy, but then I doubt they'd ever be, short of seeing him tarred, feathered, and run out of Obsidian on a rail.

 

Edit: @Gladius no it doesn't. There's a perfectly good combat system underneath the bugs and half-implemented features. It just needs to be dug out.

Edited September 2, 2014 by PrimeJunta

[Silent Winter]

 

From the feedback I've seen from the beta-testers - the effect of attributes needs slightly more impact, the experience could be given out in more smaller doses, the different classes' talents need implementing.

 

Not sure what you mean by attributes need slightly more impact? How would you do that but still have one of your attributes with a 3 and still be viable? If someone mistakenly puts a 3 in an attribute, why should they be penalised? This has been the argument of a lot of posters on this forum for the last 2 years with defending Josh's design of no bad builds.

 

And xp needs to be given out in smaller doses? How would you do that? So now you're not in favour of Obsidian's decision with only Quest Based XP?

 

In response to the attributes - see my post in this thread:

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/67723-josh-sawyer-explains-how-to-balance-an-rpg-extensive-editorial-at-kotaku/?p=1499826

->'No bad builds' does not mean no bad effects from dumping one stat - it means dumping one stat allows pumping of another and then needing to play to that advantage.

 

In response to xp system - I was never in favour of quest-only xp.  Pre-beta I was arguing that it was meant to be objective-xp (e.g. rewarded for finding a hidden cave, solving a puzzle, dealing with a threat in one of multiple ways, etc).  Since beta release and discovering it really is just quest-xp, I've been in the camp of wanting to tweak it to more objective-xp, or at least smaller steps on the way to finishing a quest if the former is out.

[PrimeJunta]

The XP system in the beta is very rough ATM. It does need a lot of work. I haven't even checked how it behaves e.g. if you go to the ogre cave before getting the quest from the farmer. It has to be able to handle situations like that somewhat robustly.

[Stun]

In response to the attributes - see my post in this thread:

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/67723-josh-sawyer-explains-how-to-balance-an-rpg-extensive-editorial-at-kotaku/?p=1499826

->'No bad builds' does not mean no bad effects from dumping one stat - it means dumping one stat allows pumping of another and then needing to play to that advantage.

It doesn't mean that either. There's no need imposed on the player at all.

 

You're trying to ignore the Obvious - that in this beta, you can dump ALL your stats to 3 and still be totally effective in melee, ranged, and spell casting, and that the system HAS to be this way, otherwise, there will be a chance for build failure... and build failure goes against the stated design goal.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Stun

[PrimeJunta]

It doesn't mean that either. There's no need imposed on the player at all.

You're trying to ignore the Obvious - that in this beta, you can dump ALL your stats to 3 and still be totally effective in melee, ranged, and spell casting, and that the system HAS to be this way, otherwise, there will be a chance for build failure... and build failure goes against the stated design goal.

 

Nuh-uh. Does not follow.

 

If you dump a stat, you put the points somewhere else. Ideally that'll just mean that some tactics will become un-viable, while others will become viable. This approach is entirely compatible to making the stats as punchy as you want.

 

I don't think Josh's intent is to make a character with all stats at 3 as viable as a character who has distributed all the stat points, even if they're distributed completely at random. That would be silly.

[Stun]

 

It doesn't mean that either. There's no need imposed on the player at all.

 

You're trying to ignore the Obvious - that in this beta, you can dump ALL your stats to 3 and still be totally effective in melee, ranged, and spell casting, and that the system HAS to be this way, otherwise, there will be a chance for build failure... and build failure goes against the stated design goal.

 

Nuh-uh. Does not follow.

 

If you dump a stat, you put the points somewhere else.

 

The game doesn't require you to. You can *literally* dump all your stats to 3 and then start adventuring and see for yourself how worthlessly cosmetic the attribute system is....and must be.... in order to guarantee no bad character building.

 

And whether that was josh's intent or not, that is how the system works. The classes are already totally viable regardless of how you choose to play them (ranged vs. meless vs. Spellcasting) The attribute points don't change this.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Stun

[Hiro Protagonist II]

In response to the attributes - see my post in this thread:

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/67723-josh-sawyer-explains-how-to-balance-an-rpg-extensive-editorial-at-kotaku/?p=1499826

->'No bad builds' does not mean no bad effects from dumping one stat - it means dumping one stat allows pumping of another and then needing to play to that advantage.

 

In response to xp system - I was never in favour of quest-only xp.  Pre-beta I was arguing that it was meant to be objective-xp (e.g. rewarded for finding a hidden cave, solving a puzzle, dealing with a threat in one of multiple ways, etc).  Since beta release and discovering it really is just quest-xp, I've been in the camp of wanting to tweak it to more objective-xp, or at least smaller steps on the way to finishing a quest if the former is out.

 

 

Why should there be bad effects if you dump one stat though? It goes back to what I said about if a new player accidently dumps a stat and then plays a character the wrong way, then why should they be penalised? This has been one of the arguments from those who have been defending this system.

 

And quest base xp has been known for a long time and a lot of people seemed to be all for it.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Sorry for barging in on your discussion on attributes, and perhaps this comes across as herp derp:

Why have attributes at all, if they're just for show, with no weight to them?

I have a hard time grasping that.

If we get to pick INT from 3-18, for instance. I expect 3 to be that of a pre-school child, and 18 to be like Stephen Hawking, and not 3 being Mr Smith, and 18 being John Doe.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

No bad builds^TM

[IndiraLightfoot]

In the IE games, especially those resting on 2nd ed D&D, getting 1 more unit in an ability score was huge. It was like a mini-X-mas, a cause for celebration. As long as this system is in, we get yet another system we don't care about, just like the xp system coz I just realized that it may be removed as well. Throw in a few talent trees and be done with it.

[Silent Winter]

 

The game doesn't require you to. You can *literally* dump all your stats to 3 and then start adventuring and see for yourself how worthlessly cosmetic the attribute system is....and must be.... in order to guarantee no bad character building.

'is' - yes, 'must be' - no

It may or may not be that Josh agrees with you and nothing will change, but I don't

 

Why should there be bad effects if you dump one stat though? It goes back to what I said about if a new player accidently dumps a stat and then plays a character the wrong way, then why should they be penalised? This has been one of the arguments from those who have been defending this system.

 

And quest base xp has been known for a long time and a lot of people seemed to be all for it.

If a new player doesn't want to take the time to learn the game as they go, or want a 'win' button because they're a casual player, that's their problem.  If Josh is really designing it that way, then yes, there's a big problem with the attribute system (may as well just get rid of it as Indira said).  (Doesn't mean the game won't be fun, just that there'll only be one basic build of each class with minor effects (though Talents remain to be seen)).

 

'Quest-xp' was known for some time but assumed to be 'Objective-xp' by most posters in the related threads - and yes, it turned out the assumptions were wrong.  So be it, I think it's an easy fix though.  If it stays this way, I'll have to play the game to see how bad/not-bad it is.

[PrimeJunta]

The game doesn't require you to. You can *literally* dump all your stats to 3 and then start adventuring and see for yourself how worthlessly cosmetic the attribute system is....and must be.... in order to guarantee no bad character building.

And whether that was josh's intent or not, that is how the system works. The classes are already totally viable regardless of how you choose to play them (ranged vs. meless vs. Spellcasting) The attribute points don't change this.

 

Ugh. Stun.

 

Two separate things.

 

One, the state of the beta. Here, we are entirely in agreement: currently you CAN play with all 3's and not feel much of a difference, and that is a Bad Thing. (Also: this is trivially easy to fix, just double the bonuses and adjust the base values down accordingly.)

 

Two, the matter of principle. You claim that Josh's "no bad builds" principle logically implies that dumping a stat must have no negative consequences. This is not necessarily so. In fact Josh said at some point that he wants us to feel the pain and enjoy the benefit if we dump/pump stats. A possible consequence is that particular stat distributions make particular tactics more or less viable, right down to "practically un-viable."

 

As to the classes, here you're empirically mistaken. You cannot currently make a viable melee ranger, or ranged monk, for example. Only some of them -- the wizard and cipher, in particular -- easily lend themselves to both melee or ranged builds.

Edited September 2, 2014 by PrimeJunta

[Semper]

Why have attributes at all, if they're just for show, with no weight to them?

 

they're not just show. there's a noticeable difference in behaviour between the minimum of 3 points and 18. it's just that right now resolve and perception are a little light on usage, but by far not useless. i also doubt that one can finish the game on difficulty normal+ with a party of "3 to all" gimped chars without abusing the ai issues.

 

perhaps obsidian even adds talents which require a minimum amount in a specific attribute to encourage players to spread points for different builds.